Grumble Alert Ethan Allen Custom Artwork and Framing

Al in Tampa

Grumbler
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Posts
43
Loc
Tampa, Fl
Hi Everyone,

I received an email from Ethan Allen (I'm a customer of theirs) that they are now doing custom framing and artwork (size) on line. I believe this is different then other online framing as they have designers as salespeople and they help customers in selections, and they will even come out to your house to help you pick out fabrics and styles. (I would think this will include the framed artwork also).

It is not good news to me, as it just means another company taking another ever-dwindling piece of the pie. I quess it is a good fit for them as most of their furniture is somewhat custom, and I would think their clients would be more inclined to do custom framed artwork as opposed to some lower end furniture stores.

What is your take on this and do you feel like it will have an impact on independant frame shops? Below is the link.

http://www.ethanallen.com/category?...&utm_medium=email&utm_content=customartlayout

(Ok I'm not sure if I copied and pasted correctly, but I'm sure you can find it)!

Al
 
...grrr...

Online framing meets in-store support from designers. Well, time to suggest our customers go to another furniture store then.
 
From a photography perspective, I've been expecting this for a while. It's a natural direction for designers to go. They're going to sell art as part of an interior design package, and they certainly don't want to ship customers off to a random custom framer before they hang something.

It's also a step up from Target-branded Thomas Kinkade stuff, but it's still bulk - the same stuff some of you guys are selling from the huge internet image repositories.

Strengthen the 'custom' side of your brand. As far as I can tell it's the only way to stay alive. Maybe contract with an interior designer?
 
Larson Juhl frames.
Gee, there's a surprise.

And Artaissance artists. But at least some of the images we can't get.

The only thing that upsets me is the price, because LJ is most likely doing all the framing too, and that's a guess by me.

I shopped the Ethan Allen site and they have a price of $396 for art in a double mat and Larson Belmont frame. My customer would pay $174 if they purchased just the art on Artaissance and I'd charge $462 for the frame, so $636.

So if I'm going to continue to offer Artaissance I should probably reduce my prices by 40%. So goodbye Artaissance, I can't compete, not even going to try. I'm pretty sad.
 
LJ needs and is supplying new sources, because many indie frame shops have closed due to being beaten to death by big boxes ....who are using cheaper....LJ frames.
 
Our days are so numbered. You all realize that don't you?

I couldn't disagree more - but the days of doing simple commodity framing are numbered. There's always somebody bigger, but art and craftsmanship are not commodities.
 
I couldn't disagree more - but the days of doing simple commodity framing are numbered. There's always somebody bigger, but art and craftsmanship are not commodities.

I understand your feeling I just wonder how long you can keep them up trying to grow a business on 50 customers a week.

Keep in mind that for most of us "craftsmanship" means cutting and joining our own frames with the same premade stock that goes into the frames built by the manufacturer. In the 13,000 frameshops that are left how often will you find true craftsmanship?
 
Been knowing that for a couple years.

It is way past time for everyone to diversify if they haven't already.

I'm still working 7 days and 70 hours a week myself, and with my girlfriend doing the same, and 3 more people working here, doing nothing but custom framing and art sales. It's actually tough to diversify but I dare say it's going to become easier.
 
I understand your feeling I just wonder how long you can keep them up trying to grow a business on 50 customers a week.

I had the pleasure of visiting New York with a clothing designer friend in January. We took a couple long strolls through Chinatown, visiting some of the mid-range and higher-end fashion galleries. These guys' rent is astronomical, and their stores are empty most of the time. Some of them get by on 4 or 5 customers a day. The successful ones understand their market really, really well. It isn't anything you can find in a big box, which is what keeps them alive.

In the Walmart age, I think you have to aim high to compete. Your price on Artaissance prints makes me think I need to add 30% or so to the cost of my smaller prints, because an 8x10 or 8x12 should be 4x or 5x what comes out of a decor warehouse somewhere.

If I never sell another print that goes in a generic Ethan Allen-approved LJ moulding I'll be on the right track. If the work I'm producing demands custom framing, real custom and not 'everybody uses the same sources' custom, I'll be on the right track, and so will the framers I use.

The only response to big boxes that I can see working is to aim higher. Way higher. Competing with them at the commodity level is a losing venture.
 
The only thing that upsets me is the price, because LJ is most likely doing all the framing too, and that's a guess by me.

I shopped the Ethan Allen site and they have a price of $396 for art in a double mat and Larson Belmont frame. My customer would pay $174 if they purchased just the art on Artaissance and I'd charge $462 for the frame, so $636.

So if I'm going to continue to offer Artaissance I should probably reduce my prices by 40%. So goodbye Artaissance, I can't compete, not even going to try. I'm pretty sad.

And there, in a nutshell, is the LJ Way.
 
I had the pleasure of visiting New York with a clothing designer friend in January. We took a couple long strolls through Chinatown, visiting some of the mid-range and higher-end fashion galleries. These guys' rent is astronomical, and their stores are empty most of the time. Some of them get by on 4 or 5 customers a day. The successful ones understand their market really, really well. It isn't anything you can find in a big box, which is what keeps them alive.

In the Walmart age, I think you have to aim high to compete. Your price on Artaissance prints makes me think I need to add 30% or so to the cost of my smaller prints, because an 8x10 or 8x12 should be 4x or 5x what comes out of a decor warehouse somewhere.

If I never sell another print that goes in a generic Ethan Allen-approved LJ moulding I'll be on the right track. If the work I'm producing demands custom framing, real custom and not 'everybody uses the same sources' custom, I'll be on the right track, and so will the framers I use.

The only response to big boxes that I can see working is to aim higher. Way higher. Competing with them at the commodity level is a losing venture.

To be fair I added more thoughts in my post to you probablly while you were responding.

I understand I really do. The commodity level is expanding.
 
And Artaissance artists. But at least some of the images we can't get.

The only thing that upsets me is the price, because LJ is most likely doing all the framing too, and that's a guess by me.

I shopped the Ethan Allen site and they have a price of $396 for art in a double mat and Larson Belmont frame. My customer would pay $174 if they purchased just the art on Artaissance and I'd charge $462 for the frame, so $636.

So if I'm going to continue to offer Artaissance I should probably reduce my prices by 40%. So goodbye Artaissance, I can't compete, not even going to try. I'm pretty sad.

Ouch. I wouldn't mind it so much if they were offering them at the same prices that "authorized retailers" (aka frame shops/galleries) sell for, but to undercut so blatantly? Guess I won't be recommending Artaissance to my customers ever.


BTW - Lieberman's just sent out a questionaire, and on there I gave them an ear-full of complaints about how they link their wholesale website that we give to customers, to their retail FG .com website that offers the exact same prints discounted. I recommend anyone who uses Liebermans to do the same.
 
I know they are using LJ pieces and artaissance, but maybe another shop is providing it. We have some LJ folks on here. Maybe they will weigh in since they are taking the brunt of this. Of course, my experience is that once you put the LJ folks in a tough spot with a question here they tend to dodge/ignore it in many cases. At least, that's what I've seen. Soooooooooo? I'd love to hear from one of them if they are involved and if so how they think this is going to help custom framers. Wasn't that the original point of artaissance? Drive art and custom framing to the store level? At least that is what I was pitched way back when.

So, LJ?
 
In the case of Artaissance, if you're pushing big box 'art' don't act surprised when a big box undercuts you on it.

The point of Artaissance was to undercut a whole slew of custom artists. Many of them didn't and/or won't survive, they were having a hard enough time with art.com.

The big box bites both ways :)
 
So we've got this advisory panel made up mostly of a few really good / close customers or friends who give us advice on things. Mostly people who run successful larger companies. Customers who are so good that I can just show this to them and not worry about losing any business. One came in to see it and was giving opinions but, ironically, we kept having too many multiple customer in here buying frames to talk much, so she finally said "call me I'll come back one day before you open and we can talk."

What she managed to say before she left was, from her perspective as a customer, this is a kind of thing that isn't "art." It's purpose is to compliment furniture. It's like going and buying a room and the wall decor is part of it, but she doesn't feel like it's "art" to her.

I mentioned that designers make up an important part of our business, and this will take them away. She said "Ethan Allen only has one store nearby, how often do they shop here?" I said "I assume this is just the beginning." To be clear this is what has my feathers ruffled... entry into another segment, interior designers, combined with the pricepoints.

She started with some good advice on how to proceed but we got cut off. Didn't seem to think it was earthshattering.

Back when LJ had GMs one would say to me "Let me be your warehouse!" and I did. Now I think they want to say "Let me be your entire non-sales labor staff!" And that seems to be the way the industry is going. I don't really know what to think.
 
I know they are using LJ pieces and artaissance, but maybe another shop is providing it. We have some LJ folks on here. Maybe they will weigh in since they are taking the brunt of this. Of course, my experience is that once you put the LJ folks in a tough spot with a question here they tend to dodge/ignore it in many cases. At least, that's what I've seen. Soooooooooo? I'd love to hear from one of them if they are involved and if so how they think this is going to help custom framers. Wasn't that the original point of artaissance? Drive art and custom framing to the store level? At least that is what I was pitched way back when.

So, LJ?

They are absolutely involved because if you design a piece then click to ad to cart watch the url at the bottom of your brower it accesses larsonjuhl.com
 
Lj...I truly love those guys for their role in the industry. Their service is top notch. I used to be able to say the same of the quality, but it is dropping as prices increase. We're still devoted LJ customers, but it sure is hard when they're (understandably sort of) in bed with our (custom framer's) competition. I kind of wish they'd pick one side of the fence and stay there.
 
Lj...I truly love those guys for their role in the industry. Their service is top notch. I used to be able to say the same of the quality, but it is dropping as prices increase. We're still devoted LJ customers, but it sure is hard when they're (understandably sort of) in bed with our (custom framer's) competition. I kind of wish they'd pick one side of the fence and stay there.



Why pick a side, when both will continue to buy?
 
Tru dat Chris.

Jerry, I can see why. Who is your new default go to?
 
Wow Jerry. You were their biggest cheerleader for a while!

I'm not sure if this is a LJ-underselling-us bashing thread or an Ethan Allen-doing-custom-framing thread.

If it's the former, I'm not interested. We all know what's going on. The shock and awe is gone. The facts are out and there is no reason to fain surprise.

However I don't see a name like "Ethan Allen" linked to "custom framing" as a bad thing. The problem with the BB's framing is that they aren't adding any cachet to custom framing. With the framing department selling 1/2 off frames and jammed in between the 1/2 off double knit fabric and the 1/2 off plastic fruit, they are making custom framing trashy not sexy. Ethan Allen may usher in a whole new attitude toward custom framing.

I'm the first to profess gloom and doom. Absent an "American Choppers" type intervention into our industry, I don't see a bright future for it. However a middle-upper class name like Ashley or Ethan Allen could be the bump that turns things around.

One of the nice things about being the new guy in town is that nobody knows who I am or what I do. I went to a new photoclub the other day and overheard one guy explaining to another some techniques he has learned to display art without framing it. More than a couple of times they mentioned what an annoyance and expense framing was. How differently would that discussion have been if custom framing was hip and trendy instead of inconvenient and expensive? This union may be just the type of thing to start that change.
 
Apparently my observation of Ethan Allen being interior designers was a false one. They are a furniture store with designers on staff, but they are a furniture store and furniture stores have forever sold framed art.

I had a real bad gut reaction to this because I perceived it as new, and because of the price points. But it's not new. In order to be upset at the offerings we'd have to also take into consideration other furniture stores and who supplies them, and also who else supplies this one.

As for the price points, the entire Ethan Allen site has been offline for an hour now with a "Thank you for your pateince" message so we'll see what happens when they are back up. It says it's routine maintenance but I don't know of any retail site that schedules maintenance when people are waiting to clock out of work and surfing the internet on a Friday afternoon.
 
As for the price points, the entire Ethan Allen site has been offline for an hour now with a "Thank you for your pateince" message so we'll see what happens when they are back up.

I noticed that when I went back to dig a little more.

My first thought was that the web guys are trying to figure out how to change those URL pointers to something other than the LJ site.

Just a thought.


Last November I had one of my top ten engraving customers come in with a bunch of un-engraved pieces that they wanted me to do in time for their banquet. This customer did a little over $7000 with me in 2009 and in 2010 I am getting about $500 worth of engraving.

After digging a little deeper, I found out that they were buying direct from my supplier.

I tossed all the samples I had from them and their catalog. I went public with the event on another forum for Engravers. The 'head honcho' from the supplier called and threaten to sue me. I can't repeat what I said to him here.

Hence fourth in my world, you are either helping me succeed in business, or your stuff is in the bin.

I refuse to compete with my suppliers. Any of them.
 
If this is appearing for the second time, I apologize (having trouble with the site for some reason). One point to add - Ethan Allen is touting the images as "exclusive". Problem is , they used to be available to everyone selling Artaissance. In fact, we have sold a few of their "exclusive" images in the past and are now told that the images are no longer available to us due to "contractual arrangements with the artist and/or the New York Botanical Garden". TRANSLATION : "we got a better offer from Ethan Allen, but to seal the deal, we had to close you out of future opportunities." Thanks Partner! I'm guessing that thes images were also proven sellers for L.J.
 
Here's what I know... Ethan Allen is a customer of Larson-Juhl's and has been for over 15 years. Ethan Allen has a facility in New Jersey where they do all of their own framing.

Larson-Juhl is one of many moulding suppliers to Ethan Allen. We are supplying the art and the moulding for Ethan Allen's custom art program. The art images they offer are exclusive to them and are not duplicated on the Artaissance site. The images were at one time offered through Artaissance, but the images were removed about a year ago.
 
Whatever...

I see that the links have been changed.

You will have to tap dance a lot faster than that to convince me you are not fulfilling these orders.

This is not really how a 'partner' is supposed to treat you.

I actually saved a copy of the code from the website this morning before the changes were made.
 
Are you guys saying that when this topic started there were actual links from LJ's website and they have since been changed in the last 10 hours? WOW kudos Grumble!

It's interesting that Ethan Allen was able to alter their website so quickly when the LJ owned Documounts has largely been unchanged since mid 2009.
 
In our shop we have been noticing a great deal of inconsistency with the way LJ prices their products and treats their customers. Every year we buy less and less from them. It was the custom framers who supported them and allowed them to grow for decades. Now it seems custom framers have become less important to them as they continue to either buy companies to do custom framing or provide it directly to the very people who are turning custom framing into a commodity. I think I will speak with the people I work with about discontinuing all our LJ business on Monday.
 
Last edited:
It makes sense that Larson Juhl has been framing for Ethan Allen, because the quality of the artwork/framing in the stores were superior to most furniture stores. It's just that I do not like the custom framing aspect that has just been introduced. Whereas most of the work we take in is things that people bring us and not artwork from our shop, we do occasionally sell and frame artwork from our shop that is selected for a more interior design motive. That aspect of our business is now deluded again.

It is bad enough that they (Ethan Allen) are now in the custom framing business, but it seems that Larson should have at least picked frames that independent shops do not carry. (They are big enough to have taken on a line just for Ethan Allen). I am disappointed.
 
And if they would do that; all framers would fall over themselves to complain why we can't get those nice special profiles.

LJ is a company. They're in business to make money. The framing market is shrinking, why blame them for moving into other markets?

What would you have done? Ethan Allen comes to you and asks if you can provide moulding. Would you have said 'no'? Or even if LJ approached EA; what a smart business move that was!

Sure, we, small independents, don't have to like it. LJ is still the biggest. There is a reason for that.

As for EA; from what I saw; it looks very generic at the best. People have always bought frames and art in furniture stores.
We, as framers, have let that market slip away. I don't think we should blame other companies for picking up the slack.

Okay; I'll stay out of sight for a little now....:shutup:
 
They are not custom framing, to be clear.

They do use the word "custom." What they mean is that they will allow the customer to select one of 3 sizes of art, small medium or large, and select their own frame and mat colors for that art.

It's pseudo-custom. And pertains only to the art they offer to go with their furniture. They are not becoming custom framers. Further, if I would discontinue my LJ offerings because they supply EA I'd also have to see who else supplies EA and other furniture stores and discontinue them too, to be fair. I might not have a lot of choices left.

I'm not upset about that now that I understand it.

That said, I'm still plenty pissed about the price points.
 
If I did the volume, and got the price points, I'd keep extra profits without leaving so much money on the table.

But that's just me. The people making these decisions are a lot smarter and better and business than I am.
 
I suppose a legitimate angle to consider is the following:

If "Widget Furniture" was Ethan Allen's biggest furniture supplier, and if "Widget Furniture" allowed their identical furniture to be sold at frame shops/galleries, and doing all the work for the frame shops/galleries so it was turnkey to allow them to undercut Ethan Allen's prices....

....what would Ethan Allen do?
 
Lets at least clear up some misinformation that propogated in this thread:

We think that this is new. So what we're learning is that moulding manufacturers and distributors have been selling to furniture stores for many years, decades... longer than many current frame shops have existed. What is new is our perception of what has been going on for many years. Personally, I thought that furniture stores got their framed art from high-volume corporate framing houses.

We think that LJ is the sole supplier to EA. This is what it looked like because EA used the LJ design interface and their mouldings on their online tool. But EA gets their frames from multiple sources.

Which leads us to: LJ is framing EA's stuff. I was guilty of that one too. So what we're learning is that EA has their own production facility, of which LJ is one of many suppliers.

Sounds like I'm defending LJ but I at least would like us to be discussing with the correct info.
 
Lets at least clear up some misinformation that propogated in this thread:

We think that this is new. So what we're learning is that moulding manufacturers and distributors have been selling to furniture stores for many years, decades... longer than many current frame shops have existed. What is new is our perception of what has been going on for many years. Personally, I thought that furniture stores got their framed art from high-volume corporate framing houses.

We think that LJ is the sole supplier to EA. This is what it looked like because EA used the LJ design interface and their mouldings on their online tool. But EA gets their frames from multiple sources.

Which leads us to: LJ is framing EA's stuff. I was guilty of that one too. So what we're learning is that EA has their own production facility, of which LJ is one of many suppliers.

Sounds like I'm defending LJ but I at least would like us to be discussing with the correct info.

Ah... that does clear it up a bit. If EA has their own production facility, then they are really doing something similar to what we are doing; buying from suppliers/manufacturing the product/selling to the customer at whatever price they want. I was unaware that they had their own facility... this thread was the first I had heard about custom work by them and the suggestion that LJ was the whole-enchilada for production too.
 
... Now I think they want to say "Let me be your entire non-sales labor staff!" And that seems to be the way the industry is going. I don't really know what to think.

Yes, our base of business is being eroded from several directions, as former customers take up framing (such as decorators, photographers & graphic imagers), and other types of retailers market more and more framed 'wall decor'. Wall-mounted TVs and digital photo frames aren't helping, either.

All sorts of framing suppliers, and not only LJ, are usurping our 'typical' framing business. FrameMakers Dave recently exposed our local supplier here on The Grumble. They are selling finished framing to photographers, artists, and probably anybody who wanders into their office/warehouse location. But what frosted my cookies was the fact that they lied to us until they were caught red-handed in direct competition with us, their customers. After almost 23 years of being my primary supplier, they receive almost no business from me today.

Johnny, your observation that our market continues to shrink is absolutely right, and the trend will continue, as consumer buying habits continue to shift away from small independent, brick & mortar retailers in general, and custom framers in particular.

So, what do we do? Well, about half of us have just given up, and several thousand more established, experienced framers will join those retirees. Some like to blame the economy, but that's only part of the long term problems we face in the framing industry.

On the sunny side of the coin, some of us will remain in the framing business, without having to diversify into something else, and we will thrive by providing what all those other retailers of framing/wall decor/art can not or will not provide. In my store, we have shifted our emphasis away from art and cheap framing. We sell very little art now, and it's OK. We also can live without the 5% to 10% gross margin commercial orders (and the associated Accounts Receivable nightmares), and even the $50 poster specials. Instead, we focus on protective framing of personal valuables, heirlooms, and objects. Nobody else does. At times, the air is a bit thin up here, but we serve our chosen niches well enough that the craft stores and other competitors in our area refer customers to us.

It ain't like The Good Old Days, but we are not doomed. Well, not all of us. Innovation still wins.
 
Call or write your rep

As a frame shop who uses Larson for over half their moulding, I am planning to write my rep and discuss this problem. We need to tell larson that they are biting the hand that feeds them. If everyone who uses larson complains I hope that they would stop selling to Ethan Allen.
 
If EA has their own production facility, then they are really doing something similar to what we are doing...


With a big difference being our sales does not run through the LJ e-commerce site that was set up to sell art to the public.

Does anyone here really think that Ethan Allen is doing their own framing?

If yes, then why would they run the sale through someone else's website?
 
Regarding Lynn from LJ's comment - I've been a customer of theirs ( or their predecessor Juhl Pacific) for twice that long. And, in an Industry that used to have a bit of integrity - that actually counted for something - but no more. The old formula would have had Larson Juhl approach it's dealers (you know- "the ones that made them what they were"), and try to figure out a better way of selling a particular product. No more, I'm afraid. It's so much easier to turn your back on the old faithful client & look to what appears to be a new market.
Nice short term strategy, but I'm afraid that unless you plan on closing the doors in a year or two (ie. when Ethan Allen decides it can get a better deal from China), this strategy will only alienate old "friends" and make new ones wary of doing business with you.
Regarding your comment on "removing those images from the Artaissance site over a year ago" - What about the customer I sold them to OVER a year ago? When they refer a friend to me to get the same piece - should I just send them over to Ethan Allen?
 
Larson Juhl served the independant framer and some expect Larson Juhl to be loyal to independant framers. However about half of the independant framers are gone. Larson Juhl finds other customers in an attempt to keep their business holding it's own and possibly growing. Did you expect them to start down sizing instead of scrambling? That's business folks.

If the rest of the independants got out and hustled, doubling their business or more, then perhaps Larson Juhl would respond.

Business can't sit still.
 
Back
Top