Grumble Alert Ethan Allen Custom Artwork and Framing

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LJ started making their bed when they took JoAnne's to the prom.

Some of you got pissed enough to strip them from you walls; but most said
"we can survive this." and kept doing business.

When LJ bought Documounts from Northwest Framing, the thread went over
5,000 views in a few months.... and most of you said "It doesn't affect me",
and when the framers in the Pacific North West pointed out that in the deal, LJ
had locked up about 20% of the "independent" framing by requiring the walls of
Beards, Frame Central, and Museum Quality Framing contain nothing but LJ.....
many of you said "who cares, it can't happen to us".

Well, look in your yellow pages.... how close is that Ethan Allen store to you?

What do you think their advertising budget is compared to theirs?

Are you ready to start selling furniture?

If you don't think there is a danger of having one company control over half
the industry . . . ask yourself this; what happened when they pulled out of
supporting DECOR EXPO? What happens when they stop supporting the PPFA?
What happens when they stop selling to you, because you aren't a "Full" Partner?

You might want to take a hard look at your local independent vendors, and talk
to them about what THEY are open to doing for more of your business. You can
bet your left patuttie that they aren't selling to Ethan Allen, or framing on the internet,
or going after your customers.... or they would have been vetted a long time ago.
 
If they sell good quality products, maybe better, than some of your other providers, at competitive prices, you would only hurt yourself by dropping them. They are also an excellent source of supplies, glass and mat/mount boards with truck delivery. I, for one, am happy to deal with them, and their Concerto products, too. They have also supported local framers with workshops (a free one here in NY region, next week). Very few, if any, Companies have a better product line at lower prices. Like I said in a previous post, you can get a better deal IF you can commit to the volume - that's the way it goes in business. It's up to you to figure out how to make your low volume business competitive.
:popc:
 
What really concerns me is that LJ is the ONLY supplier to deliver in this area, once a week only...The other Florida suppliers won't run trucks to this remote area ( and with fuel like it is I don't blame them ). There are simply not enough framers to warrant other suppliers to deliver here, so I only buy chops or short lengths that can be UPS'd from the other suppliers. Almost all of my supplies come on the LJ truck ( glass, foam board,etc ) and other than what I buy from
United I have no other delivery source. I average about $400-600 a week on my LJ order. LJ has about 85% of my moulding business and about 90% of my supply business.

If LJ should ever not deliver because I'm not a full partner I'd be in trouble as I would have to run to pick up my orders from other suppliers which are about 2 hours one way from my shop ( we used to have to do that when we first started ).

Just another thing for me to be concerned about.
 
As this thread continues, it strikes me that our Industry is (and has been) ripe for this type of quandry. This, and the Big Box conundrum, are only the result of the "independence" of the shop owners. We really never had a collective "voice" and we are now suffering the consequences. All of these "battles" are being fought by an army-of-one.
 
What I posted earlier is true.

Here’s some additional information:

Larson-Juhl sells length moulding in bulk to Ethan Allen. The pricing Ethan Allen receives is consistent with any framing customer who buys length in bulk. Same goes for the artwork. Ethan Allen purchases from several moulding and art suppliers, not just Larson-Juhl.

Why would Larson-Juhl sell to Ethan Allen? As a company, Larson-Juhl sells art and framing materials to businesses. Ethan Allen has been a customer of Larson-Juhl’s since 1989. Ethan Allen sells wall decor to consumers. Wall decor is a big category for art and framing materials.

Ethan Allen is a very well respected brand in home decor, and their core business is selling home furniture. Ethan Allen has offered wall decor for years. This new program offers a limited number of images in small, medium and large with a limited selection of frames. A consumer cannot go into Ethan Allen with a piece of art or an object to have it custom framed.

Larson-Juhl is not processing the consumer transaction for Ethan Allen. Ethan Allen is however utilizing the framing visualization software that was introduced with our new website last year.

The visualization software is proprietary to Larson-Juhl, that’s why it resides on our site. All purchase transactions are between Ethan Allen and their customer.

All Larson-Juhl customers have been offered the use of this software. Many of Larson-Juhl’s independent customers have chosen to link to Larson-Juhl's visualization software to help in selling to their customers.

Ethan Allen offers a high quality wall decor product. We believe wall decor that's framed is better for our industry than other wall decor options currently out there (gallery wraps, flat screen televisions, unframed murals, wall sculptures, etc.) that do nothing to introduce a consumer to framing.

Larson-Juhl, like all distributors in our industry, sells framing and art materials/components to a wide range of businesses. And even though some of the materials/components may be similar the end products are very different based on the channel and business it’s sold through. At the end of the day, we want to sell as many businesses as possible that can touch a consumer with a framed product.
 
For any customer who uses our visualization software the link to our site from their site should be blind to their customer. This would be the case for any of our customers using our visualization software.

It was a mistake for our web address to show up on Ethan Allen's site, and we have asked them to fix that on their end. I'm not sure that the change has been made through all browsers, but we're checking.
 
Couter,
Have you thought of having your orders delivered to another framer in a nearby town, maybe at the end of the route, and then picking up from them. I used to do this for several small frame shops around me to make it easier on the delivery truck driver and it worked fine. I just set their order to the side until they came to pick it up. It was billed directly to them. Kind of Framer helping Framer helping supplier.
 
Ray..

There are none. We are the largest customer in the area. I would still have to drive one hour one way to do as you suggest... Thanks for the input,anyway.
 
Full Disclosure: A few years ago LJ made a decision to remove me from the truck route. While I wished they had informed me of this directly, I can't argue that this wasn't a mutually beneficial decision. Furthermore my current location would disqualify me completely. I have no dog in this fight whatsoever except my allegiance toward so many framing friends.

I'm sure it will be neither possible nor advantageous to satisfy everybody. Having said that, I'll bet that much of the protests is the result of LJ's unwillingness to police their brand name. LJ has made great strides at becoming a common household name. They sell quality and service to framers. Framers and LJ alike then push quality and style onto the public. This is a good strategy and used by countless other name brands - Fender, BMW, Rolex, etc.

The exception is that those companies hold retailers to a standard to protect the brand. The wholesale price is insignificant. I'm sure Guitar Center purchases from Fender at a fraction of what Floyd's Guitars and Peach Orchard pays. Still I can purchase a Fender guitar from either store at similar prices. Many independent shops proudly advertise that they can match the prices of BB's and online stores and often do. This is not in-spite of manufacturers but because of manufacturers.

A few years ago LJ started selling joined frames to photographers for a little over our length price (although I don't recall the exact prices). A typical frameshop will order much more product than a photographer. Now the argument is that EA purchases much larger volumes. I don't see how it works both ways but no matter. The fact is that it's very difficult to sell quality at the design counter knowing that the value of the product is being undermined by the manufacturer. It's really no different than T Kinkaide selling a premium product to galleries then flushing the product out the back door to Super-Megga-Crafty Mart. This was later proven to be illegal.

If LJ wishes to offer premium products and services (such as the internet database) then refuse to protect the value of it's products, then smaller retailers will have absolutely no choice but to abandon LJ.
 
Our web address is still showing up through Internet Explorer and Firefox. Again, we've asked Ethan Allen to remove it.

On the subject of delivery, Larson-Juhl is NOT considering "full-partner" only delivery.

Recent changes to delivery have been made based on fuel costs and our attempts to maximize fuel efficiency. In some markets, we have increased delivery based on demand.
 
For years, I’ve been saying there’s something wrong with a business model that at its heart is very inefficient: buying materials just as jobs are sold. I can remember when “industry leaders”, “educators” right here on this forum were spelling out the advantages of chops and mats from distributors over stocking length and buying materials in bulk for maximum discounts. As is becoming increasingly clear, there are no advantages. They were wrong and I think they led a lot of framers and prospective framers down a dangerous road. There is something seriously wrong when Johnny and Ethan Allan (read anyone here) sell the same product but one sells it for $240 less.

That Ethan Allan can sell an identical product for $240 less than Johnny and still make a large enough profit to decide to enter the market more than suggests that there is a lot of slack in the system. They aren’t going into framing to make small margins, margins as small as I’m willing to make and find attractive. That’s good news; if they had to compete directly with me and a lot of other me’s, they wouldn’t go into framing . It wouldn’t be worth it, but they see a whole lot of inefficiency they can wring out and still make a lot of money at framing. I can sell the Ethan Allan job for $340 less than Johnny and would if I had to. This is the is the inescapable arithmetic: List price of moulding, $1.00; Discounted price, $0.60 (typical 40% box price discount); Chop price $1.80 (and up). And the $0.60 is without even trying; there are always better deals out there, especially now.

We began 32 years ago and there were two other frame shops in Wilmington; there are eleven now. If over half of frame shops have closed recently, you wouldn’t know it here and I doubt they have. An attractive market has simply attracted competition. Distributors delivering weekly or biweekly is a recent innovation and encouraged a lot of chop only, inefficient marginal operators and what we may be seeing now is a shake out. Any rational reaction to the Ethan Allan news would include a close look at how we set our prices and what we can do not only to match Ethan Allan’s prices but to better them. It can be done and it can be done easily. Just consider Jeff Rodier. And believe me, there are many, many framers like him out there who aren’t worried about Ethan Allan Framing.
 
Lynn,

Kudos to you for jumping in and answering. While the answer might not be popular and/or enough to undo whatever has been done here, I for one admire your/LJ's interest in reaching out with an explanation. You know that this is a tough crowd, but one that can be both a powerful ally and/or enemy. I also have an issue with the pricing that EA is offering, and wonder what the benefit of taking those images "out of the rotation" is, but that's your choice.

Any additional comment on the fact that I seem to recall that LJ originally touted Artaissance as a way for LJ to promote custom framing and to drive customers to our businesses? It seems that the program is moving further from that (with the decision to allow shipping direct to consumers instead of to the shops only, removing various images and allowing NON CUSTOM FRAMERS to participate, etc). Also, any thoughts or ideas of how long it would be for you to embrace M's, JoAnn's, Hobby, etc with a similar program?

Oh, and I certainly hope that everyone else is appreciative of you providing this information as well. Again, kudos.
 
Just an idea.
Instead of jumping up and down and complaining about this supplier and that deal, why not learn from this. The internet & ecommerce has been in full swing for more than a decade now. We all know that the framed print/poster market has died for independent frame shops. We all know that there is no longer such a thing a 'true' wholesale. Everyone big and small is selling direct. LJ, Ethan Allen, whoever, are in business to make money, NOT to be your friend. They will sell to whoever and wherever they can make a profit.
Why, instead of complaining about the obvious, don't you approach some local furniture stores in your area and do the same thing.
 
Artaissance Correction....

pwalters said:
... It seems that the program is moving further from that (with the decision to allow shipping direct to consumers instead of to the shops only, removing various images and allowing NON CUSTOM FRAMERS to participate, etc)...
Click to expand...

Paul,

Actually from the inception, Artaissance always allowed the online consumer the option of having the artwork shipped to them directly (Shipping Charge Added) or shipped to an Artaissance Retailer (FREE Shipping).

John
 
LJ competitive issues aside, I suspect that the reason Ethan Allen is going into this is not so much for profits in the framed art sector, as it is in diversifying their offerings, and leveraging their customer base/advertising. You may only need a piece of furniture every few years or so, but you may be willing to add to or replace accessories more frequently. Much like frame shops also offering giftware or stationery items.

They may also be willing to make less on a frame sale, since it may strengthen the customer relationship, and sell a sofa. Again, LJ issues aside, I think it is a smart move on EA's part, and if I were to open a walk-in customer frame shop, I would always look for a complementary business to help it.
 
John Ranes II said:
Paul,

Actually from the inception, Artaissance always allowed the online consumer the option of having the artwork shipped to them directly (Shipping Charge Added) or shipped to an Artaissance Retailer (FREE Shipping).

John
Click to expand...

John, I seem to recall when it first launched that the only option was that the art would have to ship to the retailer. Lynn, can you clarify? I recall telling one of my employees that they would move away from that and they did rather quickly. But I think it was that way in the beginning because it played into their whole thing about how Artaissance was going to grow sales for custom framers. Anyone else recall?
 
josephforthill said:
LJ competitive issues aside, I suspect that the reason Ethan Allen is going into this is not so much for profits in the framed art sector, as it is in diversifying their offerings, and leveraging their customer base/advertising. You may only need a piece of furniture every few years or so, but you may be willing to add to or replace accessories more frequently. Much like frame shops also offering giftware or stationery items.

They may also be willing to make less on a frame sale, since it may strengthen the customer relationship, and sell a sofa. Again, LJ issues aside, I think it is a smart move on EA's part, and if I were to open a walk-in customer frame shop, I would always look for a complementary business to help it.
Click to expand...

Which is all the more reason that a vendor who is truly interested in the well being of their core industry (hint, hint.... it's not printing) shouldn't do a deal that would allow the depreciation of their core product to an "add on" or a commodity. Pricing in situations like this should be regulated and since LJ is the one providing the proprietary images (which aren't available to anyone else) then why can't they (or why shouldn't they) put some safeguards in place to ensure that custom framing doesn't become the pack of gum at the register for EA?

Here is an A-ssance question... could I offer a major discount on the prints (let's say to wholesale) so that I could sell more framing? Say it cost me $100 and the site says it should be retailed for $220, would LJ have an issue if I sold the art to an interior designer at wholesale just to get the framing?
 
Thank you Paul.

You're right the original goal of Artaissance was to help drive more consumers into frame shops. And that's still our goal. We actively add new artists and add and remove images regularly. We also continue to promote Artaissance and the ArtThatFits website in our public relations efforts and continue to work on our search engine optimatization so the site comes up higher in the listings when consumers search for art.

Again you are correct on the shipping option. We originally launched Artaissance with "pick up for free" as our only option, but very quickly, we added the home shipping option (with a fee) based on consumer feedback.

Whether a consumer orders the art and has it delivered to their home or to their local custom framer - in both cases our customer receives credit for the sale. We still offer the "free shipping" to encourage consumers to have it delivered to their local custom framer instead of opting for home delivery. Unfortunately, not all consumers want that option, but again, either way our customer gets credit for the art sale.

Unfortunately, not as many of our customers as we had hoped have embraced the Artaissance product offering; however, the ones that have embraced and marketed the program are seeing results.

We have made ongoing changes to the Artaissance program and the website since its launch to improve the sell-through, and we are committed to continue to do so based on consumer and customer feedback.

The art sold through Ethan Allen is not branded with the Artaissance name, and the mouldings offered are not branded with the Larson-Juhl name.
 
Warren Tucker said:
For years, I’ve been saying there’s something wrong with a business model that at its heart is very inefficient: buying materials just as jobs are sold. I can remember when “industry leaders”, “educators” right here on this forum were spelling out the advantages of chops and mats from distributors over stocking length and buying materials in bulk for maximum discounts. As is becoming increasingly clear, there are no advantages. They were wrong and I think they led a lot of framers and prospective framers down a dangerous road. There is something seriously wrong when Johnny and Ethan Allan (read anyone here) sell the same product but one sells it for $240 less.

That Ethan Allan can sell an identical product for $240 less than Johnny and still make a large enough profit to decide to enter the market more than suggests that there is a lot of slack in the system. They aren’t going into framing to make small margins, margins as small as I’m willing to make and find attractive. That’s good news; if they had to compete directly with me and a lot of other me’s, they wouldn’t go into framing . It wouldn’t be worth it, but they see a whole lot of inefficiency they can wring out and still make a lot of money at framing. I can sell the Ethan Allan job for $340 less than Johnny and would if I had to. This is the is the inescapable arithmetic: List price of moulding, $1.00; Discounted price, $0.60 (typical 40% box price discount); Chop price $1.80 (and up). And the $0.60 is without even trying; there are always better deals out there, especially now.

We began 32 years ago and there were two other frame shops in Wilmington; there are eleven now. If over half of frame shops have closed recently, you wouldn’t know it here and I doubt they have. An attractive market has simply attracted competition. Distributors delivering weekly or biweekly is a recent innovation and encouraged a lot of chop only, inefficient marginal operators and what we may be seeing now is a shake out. Any rational reaction to the Ethan Allan news would include a close look at how we set our prices and what we can do not only to match Ethan Allan’s prices but to better them. It can be done and it can be done easily. Just consider Jeff Rodier. And believe me, there are many, many framers like him out there who aren’t worried about Ethan Allan Framing.
Click to expand...


Hi Warren,

It makes sense for you do be doing what you're doing in your area. It makes sense for Jeff to be doing what he's doing in his area. For me, it makes sense to sell $800 frames for $800, $150 frames for $150, that price point being pretty consistent with the area including big boxes. It doesn't mean I don't buy well. I buy some mouldings by the box and although I have a lot less space dedicated to it than I used to I still have 47 two-foot by two-foot vertical bins for length. ####, at one point we stocked so much we used to supply other shops. I also buy length by the package and chops when the moulding is too wide for my saws.

So, while the day my come where I need to get into heavy competitive pricing again not gunna do it at this juncture, wouldn't be prudent.

Getting pushed there bit by bit though.

What I am doing, and this is probably going in that competitive pricing direction for me, is setting up online ordering like EA has now. Not using the LJ interface, didn't know I had the option yet though I understood it was something that might be possible in the future. I get a lesson in backend management tomorrow so I know how it works, then the SEO/programming guys and the communications company who will be doing the graphics and product setup talk to them later in the week then it's a go, as long as the software works well. Don't know what price points I'll be using yet, but people will be able to buy preframed art or upload their own images.

So I guess this whole thing kicked my ### into gear again.
 
Okay. So if I'm hearing everyone right, I need to change my thinking a bit. My frame offerings should be marketed as "the same profiles you can find at any Craft Store AND my art needs to be marketed as the "same thing you can find at a Furniture Store". Wow, 28 years have sure brought some changes in the Industry - I actually used to try to set myself apart from those establishments. I guess the supply side of the business has determined that we're all the same.
 
FraminFool said:
Okay. So if I'm hearing everyone right, I need to change my thinking a bit. My frame offerings should be marketed as "the same profiles you can find at any Craft Store AND my art needs to be marketed as the "same thing you can find at a Furniture Store". Wow, 28 years have sure brought some changes in the Industry - I actually used to try to set myself apart from those establishments. I guess the supply side of the business has determined that we're all the same.
Click to expand...
I you want to offer art that stands out, why not sell originall art. I'm sure there are many talented artists in your area that would welcome your expertise.
Also another clarification. There is BIG difference in framing wall decor and "custom" framing.
 
CB Art & Framing said:
I you want to offer art that stands out, why not sell originall art. I'm sure there are many talented artists in your area that would welcome your expertise.
Also another clarification. There is BIG difference in framing wall decor and "custom" framing.
Click to expand...

Actually, I sell more original art than I do reproductions. The Artaissance program was supposed to fill the void for those customers that wanted more than a poster- but weren't ready to make the leap to Originals. We thought Artaissance was going to "keep them coming back" to our store until they were ready to jump in.
Also, I understand the distinction you make with regard to framing (I've been doing it for over 40 years). But you have to admit, with LJ cutting & joining frames and cutting mats & fillets for those that don't have the skill - the lines of distinction are getting fuzzier.
 
Framinfool, your points are well taken. But I think realistically we have to accept for big players like a LJ it probably takes a lot less effort and maintenance to service a few large customers, than many small ones.

It almost feels like they are stringing along the few independent operators, until they feel it is no longer worth their while.Unfortunately the internet has really allowed the lines between wholesale and retail to be greyed.

All we can do I guess, is to search out unique products and offer a top notch customer experience. Very few big guys can compete with that.
 
lynn@larsonjuhl.com said:
Our web address is still showing up through Internet Explorer and Firefox. Again, we've asked Ethan Allen to remove it.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, maybe they're ignoring LJ? The nerve!!

How about not selling them any moulding till they comply with your repeated requests........?
 
More or Less?

Less believes Larson needs the many independent’s perhaps more than any other large player.

The way Less sees it is that Larson and the like is in large part responsible for the demise of the independent customer framer, and quite possible their own demise. They told the industry to charge the customer 3 times chop while rapping the independent’s with their own self-serving chop pricing scheme. Less bought it for many years. It wasn’t too long before their strategy backfired. Now they are scrambling to position themselves by further partnering with chains and online to get as much as the pie as possible, all the while continuing to undercut the independent’s they helped create.

Larson still has the opportunity to REALLY partner up with their independent network before it is too late and put themselves out of business.

There are too many suppliers and not enough chains. Less’ only satisfaction is watching the carnivores eat each other. Larson could easily even the playing field.

The only thing saving Larson from coming completely off Less’ wall is Bill Warfield.

Good man!

Too much Unseal!
 
Not a Problem

I really don't think that this is a problem. This has been going on for years. Have you ever really tried to frame something online. It sucks. Colors are wrong product sucks and everything has plexi. I have been doing corporate art sales for a long time and the truth is we have gone back to the books. Customers do not like online for picking out items for the home or office. I say good luck to them. For all the other shops out there don't look for these things look for more ways to bring customers in your store and let everyone know how you did it.
 
"On-Line" and it's quirky crapwrap framing is not a problem with those under
35 years old. They worship at the alter of the monitor, and know nothing about
quality or anything more than the difference between black and red is the red is
a little more shiny.

They buy phones that might just last for two years, and cars that don't last five, so what would they care about framing that will out last their undershorts?
 
Did I misunderstand the original post on this. I thought that Ethan Allens designers were going to be using this - Not the consumer. If all we have to worry about is having a consumer making a purchase on the site then I am definitely not worried. If, however an EA designer is going to be specificying these Artaissance images for their client - then I do have a problem with the program and the way it excludes me from access to the same images.
 
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