V Nailer

Tuffgirl

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Jan 22, 2024
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West Lothian
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Alina’s precious petals
Hi, im creating deep box frames for my preserved flowers and my Underpinner can’t fit the moulding because most of my boxes made from Redwood are about 10/11cm deep.
Is there an alternative option to join the corners with V Nails? A Hammer is not ideal.
Is there some tool or manual Underpinner for this or some type of gun I could use? I’m new to framing and still have a lot to learn,

Thanks in advance.
Alina
 
Hi Alina, and welcome to the G.

Under pinners aren't designed to join mouldings that deep. The most you could hope for is 45mm using 3 stacked 15mm v-vails, and that in itself is risking having the v-nail blow out the back of the corner.
I have 2 different brands of under pinners, and neither will accept a frame of that depth without modification.

Some of the options would be:
A narrow gauge pin tacker, as JFeig mentions
Spline joinery, or biscuit joinery (splines can be blind or visible)
Dowel joinery (blind or visible)
Band clamps and finish nails, countersunk and puttied.
A Hoffmann dovetail joining system
 
What brand and model of underpinner do you have?
For a frame moulding that height a single V-nail at the bottom and a headless 23 gauge nail will suffice with the addition of an ample amount of glue.
Hi, thanks for your reply. I have a Casesse CS89. Bought it second hand from a framer who gave up his business. However, this is currently getting fixed as the hammer wouldn’t retract anymore. Absolute nightmare.
So do you think just joining the box frame corners with a band clamp and glue and then just hammering a V Nail in with a normal hammer? The gauge nail then on opposite side through the side rather than on the joints where the V Nail would normally sit?
 
Hi Alina, and welcome to the G.

Under pinners aren't designed to join mouldings that deep. The most you could hope for is 45mm using 3 stacked 15mm v-vails, and that in itself is risking having the v-nail blow out the back of the corner.
I have 2 different brands of under pinners, and neither will accept a frame of that depth without modification.

Some of the options would be:
A narrow gauge pin tacker, as JFeig mentions
Spline joinery, or biscuit joinery (splines can be blind or visible)
Dowel joinery (blind or visible)
Band clamps and finish nails, countersunk and puttied.
A Hoffmann dovetail joining system
Hi, thank you for your detailed reply.
I have realised that the Underpinner is not an option. I was looking for alternatives that don’t cost an arm and a leg as I’m just starting out. I did had a look at the Hoffmann but the costs for that are currently too much for me.
I need to have a look at all the things you mentioned. At the moment I can’t visualise these things but will look it up and hopefully it makes sense. I do have a 9.6CFM 2.5HP 24L
compressor and I was wondering if there is some sort of pin tacker that I could use with that? Thanks so much for the help. I’m constantly full of questions 😊
 
The 23 Gauge pneumatic pin tacker that JFeig mentioned is used by many framers for just this application, securing the top of a shadowbox frame above V-nailed base. They can also be used without the V-nails.
For tall shadowbox frames, band or strap clamps, like the ones Bessey makes are ideal for the glue up, then reinforce with the pneumatic pins.
I'm curious to know what you are using to cut the frames.
 
The 23 Gauge pneumatic pin tacker that JFeig mentioned is used by many framers for just this application, securing the top of a shadowbox frame above V-nailed base. They can also be used without the V-nails.
For tall shadowbox frames, band or strap clamps, like the ones Bessey makes are ideal for the glue up, then reinforce with the pneumatic pins.
I'm curious to know what you are using to cut the frames.
Hi, I have been cutting the Redwood for my box frames on my Morso. It worked ok on the 8/9cm depth but I will be starting to use deeper ones and the Morso is not ideal. Might have to get a saw.
So if I buy one of those 23 Gauge Pin tacker, is it ok if the Joints are on a 45 degree angle and I shoot the pins in from the side?
Or is it better to cut the lengths just with a straight edge rather than on the 45 degree angle?
I attach a picture of what I do.
IMG_4179.webp
 
I don't see the method of joinery as being as critical for the shadowbox itself, but certainly for the face frame.
Very nice job with the flowers BTW.

I asked about cutting because of the depth of the shadowbox. The image of chopping a 4+" tall moulding with a chopper is not unlike kick-starting a big motorcycle.
To cut that depth with the accuracy needed, I would have to revert to my table saw and a sliding jig. Neither my power miter box saw, nor the Brevetti could cut something of that depth. I'm limited to about 3.25-3.5".
Other technology saws may be able to handle the depth more easily.
 
Thank you, I enjoy doing the flower preservation but the framing of all is a learning process for me.
As you said, it’s not as crucial to get the box frame perfect. Once I’ve filled and sanded the imperfections it usually looks pretty good.
I appreciate to help with the recommended tools. Thanks again
 
Cross-nailing corners was the standard way for most framers pre 1980. 😃

In addition to band clamps the popular way to hold the joint in position while nailing was
the good old spring clamps. Granted, they do make a little 'divot' but if you are filling the
nail holes you can make good the divots at the same time. The original brand was 'Ulmia' and
although you can still get them they are expensive. I have a 'knock off' brand set which was very
much cheaper and I use it all the time.

This is the sort of thing...

spring clamp.webp
 
Just for interest this is an old-school machine I bought in a sale many years ago. It was
basically obsolete then. It's quite clever as you can apply very firm pressure to the joint
while you cross nail it. I use it occasionally.

vice002.webp
 

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Hints on cross nailing....

I like to drill a pilot hole and use a hammer & punch to set the pins. It's a good idea to tap them
in alternatively so as to not dislodge the corner alignment.
As you use the 'Cuckoo Clock' method were the sides of the box are concealed the nail holes should
not be a big problem. They are easy to fill anyway.

Underpinners are great but sometimes the old ways are best. 😉
 
Ah that’s great. Thanks for the advice. It’s hard to find the old types of tools these days.
Sometimes simple is best. The more technical the more chance of this breaking and I haven’t a clue how to fix this.
Will see if I find some similar clamps on eBay.
The lady who taught me how to do the flowers has this old fashioned V Nailer and it really does the trick. So simple but can’t find anything like that anywhere. Will attach a picture.
IMG_4761.webp
 
Thats exactly what I need. Thank you. With the standard drill stand I will be able to use the deep box framing. 😊
 
Before acquiring a v-nailer, we had a laborious but satisfactory method:

We would pre-align a pair of chop rails in a miter vise, verify a good joint was possible, or what gymnastics or obscenities were required to do so, glue it, let it dry in the vice, then side nail still in the vise, one at the bottom from one direction, and one at the top going in the opposite direction. We used brads with heads, suitable for a small hammer. For really hard wood, like maple, I'd either predrill a hole, carefully, shorter than the brad I intended to nail in, or use a brad the same size as a drill-bit. I'd use heavy wire cutters/sidecutters, cut the head off at a length the 'drill brad' was shorter than the intended nail depth, tighten it in a drill chuck, and carefully predrill a hole maybe 1/4" shorter than the bards I used for side-nailing. This reduced the chance of side-nailing opening up the mitre. Nailing while the glues was still wet was OK on softer woods. Continue with the second half of the frame, then the 3rd corner and last corner.

We'd countersink the small head of finishing brads with a nailset (looks like a punch but has a head shape that is less likely to slip off the brad head, just below the surface of the molding. We just never tried headless pneumatic nailing many people use. You have to figure out the agility and dexterity to not slip with the hammer or nail-set & hit the moulding. We'd mix 'nail hole filler' or putty from either standard colors, or mix custom colors and save the extra (1/4" -6 mm) balls of custom-color nail hold filler in an egg carton (polystyrene foam type) for the next time.

Later, when we had a v-nailer and tall shadow boxes, One v-nail in the bottom and one or two cross-nailed pre-drilled holes at the top of the frame, as described above. Cross-nailing (one in each direction), offset a bit (1/4"-6 mm) so they couldn't hit each other helps prevent a miter severely opening up due to minor mishandling.

Someone told me that hard wood v-nails are slightly duller so they cut across wood grain/growth lines, instead of bending to follow them (leading to 'blowing out' the outside or inside of the miter. Similarly for finishing brads, it was recommended to cut the beveled tip off a brad, then nail it into a pre-drilled side-drilled hole in very hard wood (after the glue dried), to bluntly cut through the grain, and not allow the nail to curve, in following wood grain. Not every trick worked everywhere. Occasionally a frame was a victim, regardless of how careful.

With huge frames (so large that we'd put vises on the floor in a larger area like a gallery, or clamp with band clamps) the frame might be too large to fit the v-nailer or workspace, and only side-nailing was used instead.

We never liked v-nailing frames while the glue was still wet. Plenty of people do, but I tired of wet mitres squirming out of alignment from the top-clamp pressure during wet-v-nailing. Adjustable-side v-nailer fences are supposed to help with that by allowing you to alter the side angle of the fence , but I found them too difficult to adjust, let alone figure out how much to adjust. They must work, but maybe I didn't have the patience to use them.

Murray
 
I found a spring loaded tool with hollow tubular end and a magnet inside, and an awl-like handle. For soft and/or delicate frames, a brad/nail was either dropped inside the tube, and held against the side of the moulding and started with a tiny hammer, then pushed manually into the moulding with the 'spring-loaded magnetic nail pusher'. Very rarely needed it. Sometimes it was helpful for working on an already-assembled artwork, say, something already finished, including installed glass, with a failed miter joint. Occasionally that saved the labor of completely disassembling the artwork. We'd work glue into the miter and push a brad in through a freshly-added side-nail hole. Sometimes a single mitre could be put into a vise, band clamped, or held after re-gluing and using both of your hands to hold the joint together long enough for the glue to 'set up'. If the mitre was barely opened, but obviously so, I'd dilute glue enough to be able to drip it into the hairline fracture with an Xacto or mat cutting blade, then clamp it. This was more common with the yellow carpenter's glue that dries brittle. The white framer's glues seem to be less prone to fracturing from mechanical shock.
 
I found a spring loaded tool with hollow tubular end and a magnet inside, and an awl-like handle. For soft and/or delicate frames, a brad/nail was either dropped inside the tube, and held against the side of the moulding and started with a tiny hammer, then pushed manually into the moulding with the 'spring-loaded magnetic nail pusher'. Very rarely needed it. Sometimes it was helpful for working on an already-assembled artwork, say, something already finished, including installed glass, with a failed miter joint. Occasionally that saved the labor of completely disassembling the artwork. We'd work glue into the miter and push a brad in through a freshly-added side-nail hole. Sometimes a single mitre could be put into a vise, band clamped, or held after re-gluing and using both of your hands to hold the joint together long enough for the glue to 'set up'. If the mitre was barely opened, but obviously so, I'd dilute glue enough to be able to drip it into the hairline fracture with an Xacto or mat cutting blade, then clamp it. This was more common with the yellow carpenter's glue that dries brittle. The white framer's glues seem to be less prone to fracturing from mechanical shock.
Hi Murray

Thanks for taking the time for your detailed reply. I really appreciate it.
I will definitely save this advice and will look into all options you mentioned.
Framing is not a simple as people think.
So much to think about and so much to learn.

thanks so much
 
You are right. Problem solving and handling weird challenges are around the corner. Some people have the instinct to say 'no, but you might try our friends at The Other Framers...'. We got referrals that way too. & each employee had skills and patience for certain tasks others did not.

Sometimes I didn't want to know how long a job took, because it was WAY longer than expected.

Keep notes. Good luck.
 
You are right. Problem solving and handling weird challenges are around the corner. Some people have the instinct to say 'no, but you might try our friends at The Other Framers...'. We got referrals that way too. & each employee had skills and patience for certain tasks others did not.

Sometimes I didn't want to know how long a job took, because it was WAY longer than expected.

Keep notes. Good luck.
Thanks Murray, have a nice weekend.
 
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