please help - domed photo

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Chomper93

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alright, first time posting but have learned a lot of everyone here and just want to say how grateful I am for everyone's advice and tips. I'm hoping someone can advise me on what I can do with this photo.

i've just had a customer in and she wants me to work a miracle and I'm pretty close to just saying no. if you see in the attached photos I have a a very old domed photo with a tear in the top that's been half - a** repaired by some idiot with clear tape. my assistant took the work and discussed with the customer the issues but she doesn't want to spend much money and I probably would of turned it away if id seen it. I have no desire to try and fix the tear but the customer wants to cover the tear with a mat but i cant see myself shaping the mat to the photo without putting to much stress on it.

can someone please tell me to walk away before i open up a can of worms I don't need at the moment
 

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Just had the same situation. Customer didn't want to send it to a paper conservator, so our local printer scanned and printed a copy, which we framed. Gave the domed photo back, with the recommendation that he store it someplace safe.

He also didn't want to buy a replacement dome glass.
 
We could create a liner to that shape where the lip would cover the tear and just slightly touch image. The rabbet depth would be such that the back of the liner matches up with the back of the artwork. We could even create a frame that is the same shape. Now, if there are conservation concerns that may not be desirable.
 
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"she doesn't want to spend much money"

Do you know her expectations? Sometimes people say that when they are new to framing and a bit scared of how much it might cost.

The tape is the bad thing here. There is no way of removing that without the whole paper tearing away with it.

What is the value of this (monetary or sentimental)

I had something like this years ago, for a similar customer 'who didn't want to spend much'
She just found the photo in a thrift shop and was not concerned or emotionally attached to it. She did not want it scanned and re-printed as she loved the domed shape.

I was able to use pastels to restore some of the 'missing' areas and able to repair a tear from the back and 'paint' it in (with pastels)
The result was actually much better than she expected and near invisible.

She still had the domed glass, so it went back in the same frame/glass

I charged her 3 hours of my time and she was very pleased with that.
 
I've had a few of those come in also.
Not sure that cutting a matt that is wide enough to cover that tear would work anyways.
The matt is not going to have the curvature to fit between the glass and the print.
Once again, someone is trying to have a framer solve a problem that they don't want to pay for.
The least costly option is as others have mentioned, to reproduce it with the repairs done digitally.
It will take less time and materials than any physical alterations to the original item.
 
Typically, those domed photos were mounted onto cardboard which was then wetted to soften it and pushed into a mould to dry under light pressure..

A few years on the card becomes very brittle and any attempt at delamination or repair is extremely perilous. My best suggestion (and, no, it is not cheap) would be to track down an old school reprographic photographer and have him/her retouch the damage. I have seen some quite amazing work done this way but, of course, with Photoshop and other such programmes everywhere this is now a dying art.
 
cvm said:
"We're picture framers, not magicians"
- V. Kistler

"When someone asks: 'Could you just...' you're getting ready to lose money".
- J. Goltz
Click to expand...
The real magicians are those rare people who can scan, photoshop and print profitably. No way I’d have the patience to do what they do. Their work is so good, that your customer should run, not walk, to get it done.
 
tedh said:
The real magicians are those rare people who can scan, photoshop and print profitably. No way I’d have the patience to do what they do. Their work is so good, that your customer should run, not walk, to get it done.
Click to expand...
I have been doing digital photo restoration for over 20 years.
I reproduce old photos frequently. Reproducing that photo wouldn't be too difficult.
I haven't had to do it with a domed photo, but feel confident any digital restorer could do it fairly easily.

The tear on the OP photo would literally take seconds to remove.
Because of the domed shape of the original print I would photograph the item.
Trying to scan that shape on a flatbed scanner would not produce decent results, as well as risk damaging the delicate item.
The hardest part is getting colours to reproduce as close the original as possible.
 
artfolio said:
Typically, those domed photos were mounted onto cardboard which was then wetted to soften it and pushed into a mould to dry under light pressure..

A few years on the card becomes very brittle and any attempt at delamination or repair is extremely perilous. My best suggestion (and, no, it is not cheap) would be to track down an old school reprographic photographer and have him/her retouch the damage. I have seen some quite amazing work done this way but, of course, with Photoshop and other such programmes everywhere this is now a dying art.
Click to expand...
This has me thinking about a possible method to re-create these domed photo mounts.
If one were to develop a reliable technique it would be a very unique service to offer, at a premium price of course.
 
I see no reason why an oval mat would not cover the damage and be able to fit into the frame with the convex photo and convex glass. I have done this many times. Not a problem.
 
Framar said:
I see no reason why an oval mat would not cover the damage and be able to fit into the frame with the convex photo and convex glass. I have done this many times. Not a problem.
Click to expand...
That's good to know. 👍
I had assumed that 4ply matboard would be too stiff to follow the curve of the glass.
Do you do anything to help the matt curve?
 
The mat kinda follows the curve automatically (so to speak). And if a small gap shows - who cares - it is far easier on the eye than tears and ugly yellowed tape.
 
I would, however, lightly sand down the sharpness of the bevel so the mat does not cause too much scraping on the pastel of the image.
 
Nikodeumus said:
This has me thinking about a possible method to re-create these domed photo mounts.
If one were to develop a reliable technique it would be a very unique service to offer, at a premium price of course.
Click to expand...
There is a firm in Australia which makes "slumped glass" in various standard sizes and can also make custom sizes and shapes.

Convex Glass for Picture Frames | Oval, Round & Antique Bubble Glass

Convex glass for picture frames in oval, round, octagon and other antique shapes. Dozens of standard sizes and custom bending available for virtually any size. Over 40 years experience manufacturing oval frames & convex glass.
www.victorianframecompany.com www.victorianframecompany.com

I have also heard of this being done in acrylic but have never actually used either.

One warning for anyone handling an old slumped glass frame: This glass is dangerously fragile because of its age and the stress it was placed under during the slumping process. It needs to be handled very gently and when reassembling the frame you must be very careful not to apply too much pressure to it, especially if the rebate of the frame is a bit irregular.
 
artfolio said:
One warning for anyone handling an old slumped glass frame: This glass is dangerously fragile because of its age and the stress it was placed under during the slumping process. It needs to be handled very gently and when reassembling the frame you must be very careful not to apply too much pressure to it, especially if the rebate of the frame is a bit irregular.
Click to expand...
Very true.
For the few domed glass frames I have worked on, I made a sort of cradle out of layers of foam board to support the frame, so that when placing the glass back inside and sealing the back of the package, the glass is suspended well above the workbench surface. Also, I set the flexipoints into the rabbet at the appropriate depth without the glass in the frame, then place the contents inside and gently bend the flexipoints into position.
The big danger is removing those damned old nails! I had one of these frames come in that had domed glass, but the image was not domed. I had to change the water stained matt. There was a very slight crack visible on the apex of the glass. It was nerve wracking trying to remove the nails without exerting any pressure, then refit the piece again with no pressure on the glass.
 
I have gotten into the habit of using a piece of foam core for the backing and then screwing offset clips into the wood. No pressure!

Amazing that those old pieces of bubble glass survived for a hundred years or more, isn't it?
 
Framar said:
I have gotten into the habit of using a piece of foam core for the backing and then screwing offset clips into the wood. No pressure!

Amazing that those old pieces of bubble glass survived for a hundred years or more, isn't it?
Click to expand...
Yes it is amazing. And they will last that much longer again with care.
How much of todays manufactured goods will hold up in even 50 years?
Most of it falls apart in less than 10. :shrug:
 
thanks for all your suggestions everyone. ill have a go today at cutting a mat and seeing if I can get it to accept the curve of the print and the glass. I'm not to confidant that a mat will be able to compress down enough and not affect the very weak cardboard that the photo is mounted to. especially with the tear on the top, but i just might learn something today. if that doesn't work then ill have to let the customer know that this one is a bit out of my skillset

the customers around here have the strangest and most bizarre requests and no matter how much you tell them it wont be easy or cheap, they almost expect us to do it at next to nothing. maybe thats just one of the joys of framing
 
Chomper93 said:
thanks for all your suggestions everyone. ill have a go today at cutting a mat and seeing if I can get it to accept the curve of the print and the glass. I'm not to confidant that a mat will be able to compress down enough and not affect the very weak cardboard that the photo is mounted to. especially with the tear on the top, but i just might learn something today. if that doesn't work then ill have to let the customer know that this one is a bit out of my skillset

the customers around here have the strangest and most bizarre requests and no matter how much you tell them it wont be easy or cheap, they almost expect us to do it at next to nothing. maybe thats just one of the joys of framing
Click to expand...
We all go through the same dilemma.
Being firm about how much value your time is worth is the important part.
Most customer requests that start "Can you just fix/adjust/change/repair...." usually cost significantly more in time than doing a complete custom job from scratch.
Set a minimum rate for any of these oddball jobs, even if you can complete them fairly quickly.
They take time away from doing work that will earn much much more money per hour.
I have at least quite a few "little" jobs that will take a few solid days of work to complete and only yield me a few hundred dollars.
I can complete enough "proper" full custom jobs in that time that will earn far more.
 
This thread has confirmed my decision to not work on domed glass.
 
InLine ovals in Montana and Avery Gallery in Atlanta both sell convex glass. Standard sizes are not outrageously expensive. The convex photos were all 13 1/2 +- x 19 5/8. I have had good results using Undo or Xylene to remove tape. I cut graduated sizes of foam core, with the bevel following the curve, to back the photo. I also use the stack of foam core strips to raise the frame off the table.
 
"InLine ovals in Montana and Avery Gallery in Atlanta both sell convex glass"

So does Presto.
 
When I show my customers the Canadian prices for Inline Ovals’ convex glass, they gasp.
 
Nikodeumus said:
This has me thinking about a possible method to re-create these domed photo mounts.
If one were to develop a reliable technique it would be a very unique service to offer, at a premium price of course.
Click to expand...

It was actually a US company, Brogan Bowen Co Photgraphic Restorations, that was around using the convexartist.com domain for many years.
Sadly the domain is no longer active, can only assume the art of forming the painted card portraits is lost now.

The company's main page looked like this . . .

Convexartist.com: Brogan Bowen Company photographic restorations, oval convex photographs, art repairs

Photographic restoration and Art Services including Photo restoration, Vintage Oval Convex photographs, prints, original art repairs and hand painted oil enhanced Portraits.
cqcounter.com


artfolio said:
There is a firm in Australia which makes "slumped glass" in various standard sizes and can also make custom sizes and shapes.

Convex Glass for Picture Frames | Oval, Round & Antique Bubble Glass

Convex glass for picture frames in oval, round, octagon and other antique shapes. Dozens of standard sizes and custom bending available for virtually any size. Over 40 years experience manufacturing oval frames & convex glass.
www.victorianframecompany.com www.victorianframecompany.com

I have also heard of this being done in acrylic but have never actually used either.

One warning for anyone handling an old slumped glass frame: This glass is dangerously fragile because of its age and the stress it was placed under during the slumping process. It needs to be handled very gently and when reassembling the frame you must be very careful not to apply too much pressure to it, especially if the rebate of the frame is a bit irregular.
Click to expand...

That's not us (here in Oz) of course, Vic Frame Co is in Montana USA.
Wow, those prices are up there !
A regular portrait oval (19-3/4 x 13-1/2) comparative to AUD$145.00 for the convex oval glass, about 50% more than ours are made for.

tedh said:
This thread has confirmed my decision to not work on domed glass.
Click to expand...

It's not hard to work with, we make loads and send all over Australia, sometimes other countries too.
It's very strong, travels well, and packing is an art in itself.

The old glasses CAN be fragile, especially if made in 2mm (or less !!) equivalent.
Thankfully most were made in 3mm (1/8") glass, and unless damaged on the edges reasonably stable for remove and refit.
No old brad nails though, I always recommend a 3mm foamcore buffer, and new points . . . plus lose the old round eyelets and copper strand wire, replace with d-rings and new plastic coated stainless wire.

Convex glass is great for lots of various 3D works.
I actually started out buying it to use on my wifes paper tole work mid to late 90's, bought the biz in 2000.
 
That Victorian Frame Company in Montana is now owned by Inline Ovals, so calling Inline Ovals works for those orders.

Will also note that, if a customer brings a frame doesn't match Inline's shapes/sizes, they welcome custom design queries. If it's workable, mailing a tracing of the frame interior on kraft paper is usually all they need. And if frame is the same shape as theirs, but slightly smaller there are two glass options. One is to bend new glass. The other is to trim one of pre-made glass shapes down to size, which costs much less.
 
Shayla said:
That Victorian Frame Company in Montana is now owned by Inline Ovals, so calling Inline Ovals works for those orders.

Will also note that, if a customer brings a frame doesn't match Inline's shapes/sizes, they welcome custom design queries. If it's workable, mailing a tracing of the frame interior on kraft paper is usually all they need. And if frame is the same shape as theirs, but slightly smaller there are two glass options. One is to bend new glass. The other is to trim one of pre-made glass shapes down to size, which costs much less.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's fairly easy to bend up a drop ring to a new or special shape to form on.
Also extra depth if needed is a matter of more kiln time (or heat).

You can trim convex shapes down a little, but not too far, and shapes other than circles have to be fairly even in height / width ratio, or it can't be done with a nice edge in plane all round.

It's a really cool trade doing the kiln formed glass, not many doing it, and always learning.
I can actually make some low reflection optically coated glass into convex form, have numerous done now for very special pieces, including one for a framer in the US (is Baer still around ?? Looked him up and he hasn't posted in ages, domain not working any longer ??).
Now that is virtually gone from view, and the detail !! Just like it works on fine art etc.
 
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