Question Framing Consultants Commission Percentages

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TrudyCo

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Sep 21, 2009
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Harrisburg,Pa
Hello! I am starting to consult for a great gallery in my area. I am a certified custom framer. I was wondering what is a good salary plus percentage of sale in this market? Is anyone else out there doing something like this? The owner of the gallery and myself are trying to create a contract, but both do not know what would be fair.

Please reach out to me at TrudyCo@aol.com. Thank you!:D
 
At this time I am just getting back into the business. so until January, I will be considered a contractor. The owner of the gallery would like to make me an employee in January.

So I am trying to get an idea of how to break down commission percentages on jobs that I bring in to her gallery. Jobs that would have not made it to her door if it were not for my networking.

I apprecaite your advice!
 
Describe your job.

Does that mean you simply do front counter design?
Are you lending your expertise to restoration projects?
Are you there all the time or job to job?
Are you on call?
Are you wanting a base plus commission figure?

What if they had only one 15-minute job a week? Are you willing to travel and get paid for just 15 minutes?

There are too many factors involved for us to even guess....but the more you tell us, the better we can guess.

I used to be an independent contractor that would work for other framers. I used the average going rate for a framer in that geographical area.

If I do outside consultation here for clients, its at $30 an hour plus expenses.

And can I ask you a crazy question? Why do they need a framing consultant? Why don't they just hire a framer?

(To me, the difference is a consultant doesn't do hands-on.)
 
I would think that you would get either a salary as an employee of the company (possible spiffs if you set production goals, etc.), OR you would work on commission as an independent contractor...not both.
Most fledgling art consultants in my area are seeking more lucrative positions in the food service industry.
 
I am certified by Larson Juhl.

I am currently doing research, phone calls, and drop-ins as a consultant. I also go to networking events as representation for the gallery.

I will have the opportunity to design frames, and even do the hands on work when extra help is needed. My main responsibility is to take the company to the next level. Reach out to architects, interior designers, etc, to get in on additional projects that the gallery would not have gotten without me reaching these clients.

Right now I am seen as a contractor and get a minimal fee for research and contacting potential new clients. Once I actually obtain a new contract with a new client, I should receive a percentage of the sale. So basically the minimal fees paid to me now would come out of a commission earned at a later date.

The owner would like to make me an employee in January for tax and insurance purposes. Does this make it clearer? Is anyone else doing this? I am here to bring in new business, because I have a sales and framing background.
 
Trudy, sounds like you are talking about being a outside sales rep. I paid a 20% commission to a few people I had that called on clients on their own and designed framing for them and gave me the order. Also they sold art from my gallery too.

Does that answer your question?
 
Bill, where did the 20% come from? Was it 20% of the final mark up? This is sounding closer to what I am looking for...

So if I would make 20%, I could still possibly be an employee based on commission only...

The owner was just trying to help me out by paying me the minimum, so I was not working for free until I got my first real big job. That minimum would come out of the commission once it was earned. Thus a very small salary + commission. She would also pay me $$ per hour for those hours spent helping out putting together frames in the shop when extra help is needed.

Thank you! Just explain where the 20% derived from.
 
20% of what they sold I think you are making this way to complicated. As a outsales person anything you sold, you would get paid 20% of the sale price. That would include you desiging the framing, selecting the art if art involved and selling it to the client.

Use the KISS method.
 
Sounds more than fair. I would give it time, it might take a while before some people see this.
 
Bill, I am a woman----I make everything more complicated!

I was just thinking of taking a percentage of the remainder/markup.

But thanks again!
 
An important legal/tax concept. You can not be an independent contractor and an employee at the same time. It is either one or the other... not both.
 
Basicly you are an outside sales rep that works on a draw against commissions. You are also going to be a part time employee.

As a part time employee you must be paid an hourly wage or salarly. You can also receive a commission by aquiring new contracts for the business. Any and all hours required to be worked by your employer must be paid. What you do in your free time is your business and if you choose to locate new business which you are paid a commission is a allowable.

As far as the percentage it should be based on gross sales and not any other formula. I would request the owner pay you the highest percentage discount she offers to any current customer. You should get the same discount as the interior decorator that gets the best deal. Do not base the commission on profit margin since the business should be set up to run at a certain profit margain already.
 
If I were the owner, I'd find 20% for payroll an acceptable figure. When the store grows, more help would be needed, but the payroll should remain at 20%. The framer could choose to hire help or work more hours to get the work out.

I like incentive-based pay too, because sales effort increases.
 
TrudyCo said:
I am certified by Larson Juhl.
Click to expand...

Really. They do that too? Or do they do it in conjunction with Michael's?

Sorry for the frankenthead.... but I'm just flat out having a really hard time getting my head around this.

When did they start doing this? Anybody.... anybody?
 
Dosn't LJ have a framing school and they present you with a certificate of completition upon finishing the week?
 
The fee you are paid up front is considered a retainer or a minimum amount that the selling contract will allow for, beyond that go for a % of the total sale before tax or it could get very complex, keep it as simple as possible and whatever you do don’t accept a % of profit that is almost a no win situation for you.

If the business you are getting involved with as one of there consultants has any difficulty about paying you a % of the total sales value before tax, I would give serious consideration to not accepting the contract.

Retainer or minimum payments of contract are standard in many areas of business, regardless of the success of the venture or project.

Good luck with your new “business”
 
Baer Charlton said:
Really. They do that too? Or do they do it in conjunction with Michael's?

Sorry for the frankenthead.... but I'm just flat out having a really hard time getting my head around this.

When did they start doing this? Anybody.... anybody?
Click to expand...

danny boy said:
Dosn't LJ have a framing school and they present you with a certificate of completition upon finishing the week?
Click to expand...

Yes, to both! I am "certified" or "certifiable". I have the certificate showing completion of their 7-day training course--got the notebook manual, too. That was 6 or 7 years ago. Do I still have to take the test to be a CPF? LOL
 
danny boy said:
Dosn't LJ have a framing school and they present you with a certificate of completition upon finishing the week?
Click to expand...

See that's where I am having a problm. You have a "certificate of completion" of a 7 day class. This is not a CPF. Were a person to come into my shop and work for me after completing a class I would still be hovering over their shoulder watching what they did.

I am also having a problem reading your thread as I have a guy that came in to get a photo framed. He is now walking around town telling people he "works with me" and is selling his photos to people, saying that he can get them a discount for framing in my shop because he "works with me". He grabbed a stack of my cards and has written his name on the back and tells his "customers" to mention his name for their discount.

He's a loon. He is doing "out reach" for me. He is doing "networking" and since he offered to help me dig a trench at my home he is telling people he is "helping me out when needed".

Frankly he needs to get back on his meds. Until you get something in writing from the gallery, and get business cards from the gallery printed with your name on them I am thinking that you are in the same boat as my "assistant". Now had I read this thread before I found out I had a community emiisary I would be congratuating you and the gallery, but since I basiclaly have a business "stalker" running around out there doing exactly what you said you are doing, well, ;) all i can say is get the gallery to make cards for you, get someihing in writing from the gallery. And do it before you attend any more meetings "for them".

Otherwise, like me, they may have to get a cop to put a stop to the behaviour that they don't want ;)
 
Yeah, Bob.. i told the guy he would do better down the coast... like around the Kennebunk area.:thumbsup:
 
I thought he might have come from you! He had these hummingbird photos printed, he said from a "gret place" up north that he could get a me a good price on...

I guess you gave him a discount of 12% because you only used 7 of the 8 colors your printer prints in? I gave him 25% off mat prices because I only cut three of the four sides. He seems happy with the deal ;)

Trudy, good lck with your endeavor, and forgive me for being "rude", but as a gallery owner" being burned by a consultant not of my choosing please accept my suggestion that your relationship with the gallery be formalized. Having been an outside rep I would say the commission pay of 20% is fair. But keep in mind the artists you meet are gonna want the cheapest priced framing possible, which will mean a lot of work on your part and little pay back for that work.
 
Even better than that.. I only used 7 of the 11 inks my printer has!!

HAH!! I really pulled a good one on him!!:shutup:



Personally, this whole idea of being framing consultant is a far reach for work and not a very promising one at that.

You will work your tail off and spend alot of money on gas driving all over the place for a pittance of a commission. I think you are grasping at straws here and you need to just go get a full time job in a frame shop. At least that way you can have a regular pay check to pay the bills. If you want to go out and stump for more work on your own time, fine.
Realize that, in the eyes of a frame shop owner, your framing cert from LJ is barely worth the paper it is written on when it comes to being a competent framer. That comes with actually working in a frame shop and learning the right way to do things from real life experience.

While I do give you a thumbs up for your creativity on trying to find work, I feel you are over reaching here, especially for someone who has no long time experience in the framing business.
This would be known as street cred.
 
I would probably consider you on par with a designer. I have a discount schedule for them on my site.

However, as shop owners, I am interested to hear if any of you have actually hired outside art and framing consultants. What do they do? How do you track them? What is your agreement?

This is not something I am interested in at this point because I feel I can do a better job myself. It is my company and I want to represent it and retain the client base. I'm not going to quit and leave with the clients. This is something for any gallery to consider and should be included in your agreement--some sort of non-compete clause.
 
I would consider this person as an interior decorator. I offer interior decorators that do steady business with me a 15% discount... which means that they don't all get this deal just because they say they are a decorator and in my store helping out a friend. I want to see a steady flow of business from them first.

The 15% is off the gross margin, as Jeff said. No other way to do it in my opinion.
 
Thanks for the notes. The owner of the gallery and I are working this out. We both want to be fair, so that is why I inquired to see if anyone else is doing this.

I am a contractor until January. She will then hire me as an employee. I am not doing both at the same time.

I have a larson Juhl certification, not CPF. Thus I have the training, and yes I have frame shop time put in as well. I just have a stonger sales background, so the owner wants me to represent her.

PLUS, I have my own business cards that she had printed up. They are even embossed!

Neither one of us is trying to screw over the other. She wants a way to bring in new business, and I love sales and framing. We will have a contract, but are trying to figure out how to write one up, what details we need.

I also work in her shop when help is needed. Now, as a contractor and later as an employee.
 
Check PA law with regard to contractors. NJ is enforcing contractor law that requires registering with the State and certification to the person/business paying you, or they have to withhold and submit taxes as if you are an employee. The certification and reporting assures that State taxes are collected one way or the other. There are also strict limitations on the work relationship eligible to be called "contracting".
 
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