cutting and measuring fillets?

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Am i stupid or can someone out there please walk me through the proper order in which I am to cut fillets. I have always had the fillets chopped to mat measurement and now I am trying to save a little money by buying length. HELP!
 
yo choppy, I usually buy length,I get enough to cover the order and if any left over i keep to do other small openings with. I tend to always use it some how on other things.I chop the fillet end then butt it up to one corner of the mat opening go to the other side and make a mark by eyeballin the 45 with a pencil, when you chop it chop long and go back and shave it till it fits perfect. Always works out for me that way anyhow.Ive made quite a profit on small items later on the remainder of those pieces of fillet left over hope this helps Bro,Bones
 
And.........always cut the long sides first because if you screw it up, you at least have enough for the short sides.
smile.gif


While we're on it: I use ATG and glue in combo because never trust ATG to hold permanently. If you ATG the whole of the fillet--then glue, are you "glueing" the ATG? I do it because I want it to hold securely all the way while the glue dries, but the question has bothered me. (Now watch: some wag will say I'm overkilling, but that wag has probably not had a fillet release on him and then had to refit the whole danged package.)
 
Actually MM, your glue + ATG tape is a good idea.

We don't really trust ATG alone for the long haul, and switched to glue a number of years ago. In addition, we found that the holding power of the "white glue", PVA adhesive, is greatly increased, if you take a blade and scrape the surface of the "flange area", before applying the adhesive. This will allow the glue to make better contact.

A second tip, that I picked up from a Fort Worth framer is to use one inch square cuts of 2ply ragboard, in combination with those very small black office clips. clip the fillet to your mat while it drys and continue working on the next adjacent fillet piece. By the time you reach the fourth segment, the first two are dry!

John

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______________________________________
The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
www.theframeworkshop.com
Appleton, Wisconsin
jerserwi@aol.com
______________________________________
 
I have found that a person can make a small nick with an old mat blade to mark the fillet. You will be more accurate because you can hold the blade vertical against the mat. With a little practice you can get it on the first cut.
This information came from the instructions on my fillet cutter.
 
Forgot to mention the glue and doing the long ends first thanx MM, Mitch might have to try that thanx ,John will have to try the clips sounds like an excellent idea, thanx to all Bro. Bones
 
That clip idea is super! I do a lot of frame fillets also, and I'll try to use the same gizmo. Right now, I do framer's points to hold til dry. Painful. With a clip, I could work from the top. Thanx!
 
After years of experimentation and research we use ATG to hold position and then use hot glue to spot glue ever inch or so. We checked out the use of hot glue with the techs at PPFA. It is not necessary to fill the entire area with the glue. Spot gluing every inch or so will do the trick. It is quick and strong. We have never had a fillet release and we can get the work benches back quickly to use for another project. As the glue holds quickly you can position and release and be done. We then seal them with one inch JLAR or Mylar tape under a 4-ply rag for consersvation. The mylar tapes on the market do not stick so well.

We were annoyed with the black binder clips and glue because it took the glue so long to set and there problems in the multi step process. There is the problem of putting a square of mat under the top and bottom of the clip where it touches the work. If you forget the square on the mat top, you irreparably dent the mat. We find that multi step processes don't fare too well. When we were are under stress or fatigue we sometimes forgot the mat square. Sometimes the fillets would shift under them and removing the glued fillet was a nightmare. If we have a problem with the hot glue we just remelt it and reposition.

Here's an interesting tip to work with the bottom up. Make several two inch high by 2" X 4" foam core rectanges. On one of them tape a mirror to the rectangle bottom with the mirror facing the foam core and sticking out from the side about two inches. Prop up the mat with the other foam core rectangles. Put the mirrored rectangle on the bench so that you can see the front of the mat where the fillet rests. Slide the mirror along as you work so you can see how the fillet is positioned. This will allow you to be able to see both sides at the same time. You also might want to make corner foam corner rests to reduce stress on the corners so you don't get that corner crease that sometimes ocurs on large mats. Try not to place the foam rests over the fillets, the weight may push the fillet back and away from the mat.

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the cat.

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited 03-30-2000).]
 
Hi Merps

Glueing directly onto ATG does not increase holding power, in fact, if the glue is water soluble, it may weaken the bond. ATG is hydrophylic - it does not like water. The better technique, as you infer, is to glue directly onto an un-ATG'd surface. Leave bare patches between interrupted applications of ATG - I suggest using 969 HD.

Now to stir things up a bit . . . One should consider what "white" glue is being used: some are very low pH products and will vent gaseous acids, not only when they dry, but when responding to humidity changes after they have dried!

(Oh dear, what have I done?)

Orton


[This message has been edited by Orton (edited 03-30-2000).]
 
Orton and mm,

To stir the pot more, Jeff Teichnor (sp), formerly of PFM, raised an additional caveat about this method on the HH just the other day. He claims that gluing the fillet to the mat board will cause warping of the matboard as the two materials expand and contract at different rates, and it would follow from that that the bond will eventually break. He claims to have a technique that overcomes these problems, but has, so far, not presented it as it lends itself best to a hands-on demonstration. If he describes it, I'll try to share it accurately.

As for my own technique, I've been doing the same as MM. However, earlier in my profession, I used only ATG as I was taught. One of my own pieces that sits in a house that gets more humidity and temperature changes than do residences in Eastern Oregon, has one side that has released.

If anyone out there has seen Teichnor's technique, could you share?
 
Will be anxiously awaiting info on what this technic could possibly be.

We've covered ATG, white and/or good glue, and hot glue: prayer and good works has not yet been mentioned, but.....

BTW, AL: you mention the hot glue, and it seems you've checked with PPFA and it's okay to use? Seems I read on this board some time ago that it was not. Help?

I personally have not had any fillet warp the matboard, nor have I seen such a phenomenon, but he wouldn't say it were it not a possibility.
 
How about putting the fillet onto another surface, such as mylar cut to the same size as the opening and layed under the mat? If it was to be ATG'ed to the mylar the expanding/contracting problem would be overcome.
Just a thought.
 
I think strictly speaking the fillets are not C/P? Any thoughts?

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the cat.
 
Yep, that's what I thought also. But let's find a way to render them so: they're so nifty.

[This message has been edited by Cathie Simmons (edited 03-31-2000).]
 
You are right -- fillets are not acceptable in "Maximum Preservation" projects, according to the Fine Art Care & Treatment Standards (FACTS) Guideline (revised Jan.2000).

That doesn't mean we should never use fillets, it just means we take an exception to the "Maximum Preservation Standard" when we do. The same is true for many popular design features, and when we use a wood frame without a special lining in its rabbet.

FACTS recommends that we list exceptions to the standard, as a way to uniformly describe the level of preservation for each project. They even provide special write-on dustcover labels for the purpose.

The main problem with fillets (and unlined rabbets) is outgassing. For designs where a fillet is to be used, we can lessen the problem by applying a gas-impermeable barrier, such as glass or metal, which would seal the unfinished bottom of the fillet. It's not a perfect solution, but the best protection for use of fillets in preservation framing.

By the way, rag board -- no matter how thick -- is not a gas impermeable barrier. Neither is Mylar. These and most other materials should be considered buffers or filters, in that they give a limited amount of protection for a limited amount of time. They are not permanent, though, because contaminating gasses can eventually saturate, penetrate or pass through them.

The gasses are bad news because they often chemically-react with art media, which might cause fading, color shift, disintegration or other nasty stuff.

Gas Impermeable barriers are glass or metal, for practical purposes in framing. Also, "Camger Varnish" is said to make a gas-impermeable barrier, which will last as long as the varnish does. But it's a painted-on coating, and would eventually crack. How long is that? Who knows? Probably many years.

Suppliers of archival materials offer metal (aluminum) tape which has a good adhesive and makes a good long-term barrier.
Stick it on the bottom of the fillet and mat, and then use a rag board liner to prevent abrasion of the art by the metal tape.

For a lot of projects, all of this is academic. But for those jobs that need the best-possible protection, these are a few of the ways we can provide it.

One more thought...don't hold your breath waiting for Jeff T. to reveal his fillet-installation technique online. He has a class for that, which is how he makes his living. I haven't attended that class yet, but I've heard it's a good one.

See you at the shows...


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Jim Miller,holder of CPFcm designation; FACTS/GAFP Committee Member
 
As a new framer, all of this info is interesting but, the the subject of how to cut the fillet has not be answered in detail.

Is there not a better way than checking the fit and shaving until the correct fit is attained?
 
Chopnjoin,

Are we to assume that you are using a mini mitre chopper for your fillets? If not, then I highly recommend that you invest a couple of hundred dollars in one.

Is there a better method to chop them without shaving, not really. The best thing to do is practice. You may start off having to shave them down 3,4,5 times but as you start to get used to working with them, normally I make the first cut then shave only once maybe a 2nd time. Like anything, practice, practice, practice.

Roxanne
Langley House Gallery
 
Instead of using white glue, try Tacky glue, it has less of a tendancy to run out onto the face of the mat & is designed for just about any glue surface, fabrics, paper, wood, etc. Also, we measure, cut & pre-fit our pieces of fillet, we then glue and clamp it together using those cheap framing clamps made out of pot metal or aluminum, before we fit it into the mat. We use Corner weld glue for this. Pre-glue the mitered surfaces, let it dry, then glue & clamp them together. Use ATG in spots & Tacky glue in between the ATG to hold it to the mat. Lay the mat face up and down onto the fillet, use weights if you need them.

John
 
Originally posted by The Frameshop Elf:
Is there not a better way than checking the fit and shaving until the correct fit is attained?
Click to expand...
Yes there is, though not everyone will agree this is possible. Cut and join your fillet to fit the art. Then cut your mat window with a reverse bevel on a CMC (Computerized Mat Cutter.) This does work, even on a Mat Maestro - though on the MM I'll usually cut a test mat on a piece of flaw board and adjust the software resolution settings, if needed, before cutting a piece of suede or linen.

This comes up from time to time on The Grumble and the whole idea is a source of great amusement to some, but it works and at least a few others do this. (Kit, back me up here.)

If you use a lot of fillets, this alone is a good enough reason to buy, rent or lease a CMC.
 
John: What a smart idea to use corner weld on the corners, I have never thought of that.

I have always atg-ed the fillet to the mat & then taped the underside of the fillet w/self-adhesive linen tape to the back of the mat. The frame shop I used to work insisted on siliconing the fillet.

What about if you're putting the fillet inside the frame?

I like the tacky glue idea - are we talking craft-tacky glue in the gold bottle, or is it another type you're referring to?

Does anyone have any thoughts on the hand-held fillet cutters?

Thanks so much,
Debbie
 
I was surprised to see that someone posted an old entry of mine from two years ago.

I'm picky about my fillets: how picky do you want to be?

Here's how I handle mat fillets.

I buy length.

As soon as fillet stock arrives, it is sealed with RabbetSeal(c )

It is given at least three days to cure before being used or inventoried.

Procedure at employment:

Rough-cut the lengths and chop a 45 into one end, with regard for the repeat pattern.

Undercut (back-cut) the chopped end slightly to remove the rag and to facilitate a tight fit along the recto edge of the chop; use an X-acto knife .

Fit the fillet into the mat opening, long side first, and mark the raw end with the point of an X-acto knife to the exact length. If you fit the long sides first and then the short sides, you will get much better results than if you do the short sides first, or if you do each side in rotation, trust me.

Chop the length exact and dry-fit, making incremental shaves off the length if needed.

VERY SLIGHTLY! shave shorter than required to allow for variances in the mat opening: better shorter than longer so it won't ride out of the opening.

Slightly undercut the fillet verso with the X-acto knife to ensure a rag-free fit as before.

Guild or colour the raw ends to cover raw wood at the chops.

Use intermittant narrow strips of 969 ATG along the fillet rabbet, and use dots of Good Glue in the interstices.

Install on the mat.

Repeat the procedure for the other long side.

Repeat for the remaining short sides.

Fit a filler mat to the upper mat verso to take up the fillet thickness, making sure that the window opening is larger than the fillet width; ATG and Good Glue.

Fit an interleaf mat over the whole assembly; the opening cut to provide a 1/8 inch backset from the fillet edge so that it cannot be seen from the recto; Good Glue and ATG to the fillet verso. This creates a very solid, robust, and flat platform, and will go a long way to mitigating the problem of fillets moving about on their own.

Let set for half hour or so before handling.

Hinge to the mountboard.

Finish framing.

. . . that's how I do mat fillets.

For frame fillets I order pre-fitted & pre-installed, and treat with RabbetSeal(c) when the moulding/fillet combo arrives.
 
In the past I worked in the same manner as many of you but when I arrived at my current position I found that they were joining fillets in a Stanley mitre vise with glue and (pre-drilled) 20-guage nails. The resulting product features lovely joints and isn't all that hard to do. Cuts down on chipping during installation as well. I can usually measure with a tape in the mat window, set the Jyden to match, and be either perfect or within a frog's-hair.
 
Okay Ron, here goes:

I order almost all of my fillets chopped to sight size. I think that the extra expense is more than justified by the time I save not having to fit, shave off a little, fit, shave off a little, fit, shave ...

I use CornerWeld on them and build them in the vice.

The Wizard cuts a reverse-bevel opening in the mat for the fillet to fit into.

ATG the fillet to the mat, build sink mat with foamcore to produce an even surface, then use barrier tape to attach the fillet to the foam core and seal it at the same time.

If the fillet is higher than the top mat, I use a spacer so that the pressure of the fit does not force the edges of the mat opening up away from the fillet.

I notice that this method is completely backwards from what everyone else is doing but it works for me.

Kit
 
Debbie, It's the gold bottle you get at any craft store.

If the fellet is for the frame, we glue the fillet into the moulding before we cut the frame. We lay the moulding upside down on a long bench, lay a bead of Tacky glue on the underside ( the side facing up if the moulding is upside down) of the rabit. lay your fillet into position then staple in place with 1/4" leg staples. We use a Senco air stapler- fitting tool for this. Angle the staple slightly so they don't fire clean through the rabit. You don't need many staples for this, just enough to hold in position. Let it dry for about half an hour or longer & cut your frame using a saw, not a chopper. If your using chops, your back to carefully fitting the pieces to the frame opening, the rest you can do the same as any fillet then attach to the frame same as above.

John
 
I use the nick and cut big, then shave method. To adhere them to the mats, I use Tesa® tape, which is an ultra-sticky ATG. I then use 1/8" Acid-free foamboard shims pushed tight into the fillets, and finish off with barrier tape. The fillets are near as perfect as possible. The other biggie is to always make sure your fillet chopper blades are sharp. I find I can get them reground at least twice, and that saves on replacement.
 
Originally posted by The Frameshop Elf:
Thanks for all of the wonderful information.

I tried taking the inner frame dimensions and cut the fillet to these exact specs. This did not work. Can someone explain why?
Click to expand...
Probably you measured to the wrong part of the fillet. The trick is to measure to the part of the fillet that will be touching the inside edge of the frame. Also, a tape measure isn't always accurate enough for the subtlely of fitting a fillet. I have not found a way around having to fiddle with the ends when fitting a fillet into an already built frame. (especially if the customer has brought the frame in, and it isn't square)
 
In using the "cut and shave" method I always found a MitreTrue sanding disc to be the most accurate way to get just that exact mitre. Best, least expensive tool I ever bought for my shop.
 
Just popped in to get other ideas about fillets and saw your question. Seems to me the factor that may have thrown you off in cutting the fillet to fit the measure of the frame was the width of the fillet itself. As the fillets vary in width as do the rabbets of the frames, the fillet won't be an exact fit unless you exactly fit it! Take a look an see if that isn't the problem.
Back to the old-fashioned way, I'm afraid.
 
"If the fillet is for the frame, we glue the fillet into the moulding before we cut the frame."
Click to expand...
This works like a charm and mitered corners will be perfectly aligned.
 
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