framebot
Grumbler
We are impressed with what we are seeing out of Eclipse in regards to their CMC. I have read alot of feedback in this forum about various others, but not much about the Eclipse. Any takers?
CMC (Eclipse)
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R
RonEggers
Guest
If I had it to do over again (and I may, when my orphaned Mat Maestro breaks down) I'd be hard-pressed to decide between the Eclipse and the Fletcher CMCs. In addition to the machines, I want to see how the software compares. What's involved in doing original designs and layouts? Can you do letters and clipart? I'd also want to spend some time with an owner's manual. If the Fletcher documentation is as good as what comes with the 3000 cardboard/glass cutter, that could be a factor. Of course, I'd want to go to Atlanta or someplace and see them both in operation. I'd also make sure the company is on solid financial footing, which, in the case of these two, seems to be a 'non-worry.'
If you haven't seen it, Eclipse has a video available. If you can't get one, let me know. I have one, and I wish I'd paid more attention to it.
I believe Eclipse now has more models available than they did in the past, probably to be more price-competitive with the Wizard.
If you haven't seen it, Eclipse has a video available. If you can't get one, let me know. I have one, and I wish I'd paid more attention to it.
I believe Eclipse now has more models available than they did in the past, probably to be more price-competitive with the Wizard.
framebot
Grumbler
Ron,
Thanks for the info and ideas. At this point I think we've decided on the Eclipse. Anywho, in the next few months I'll be able to let you know more about it.
Thanks Again,
Mark Hampton
Thanks for the info and ideas. At this point I think we've decided on the Eclipse. Anywho, in the next few months I'll be able to let you know more about it.
Thanks Again,
Mark Hampton
Don
Grumbler
I bought an eclipse last December so Fletcher mat have come out with something new since then but in my research I found the Fletcher quit limited in its designing capabilities. Where as the Eclipse is a whole lot more versital. The Wizard and the Fletcher you pick from certain templates for your mat designs (such as a dome top). The Eclipse I can put a victorian in one corner, round the next, put a SouthWest design in another and whatever else in the last. On several of the corners I can also change the specifics of the design (such as if you want a south west design to stretch further across the mat but dont want it to show so much of the second mat). AND I can cut any of these openings as a V-groove. It does have clipart and text that can be used. You can also send a design to Eclipse and have their designers set it up for you.
Clearly I was much more impressed with the Eclipse.
Don
[This message has been edited by Don (edited September 01, 2001).]
Clearly I was much more impressed with the Eclipse.
Don
[This message has been edited by Don (edited September 01, 2001).]
framebot
Grumbler
The Eclipse must be mine!!!
R
RonEggers
Guest
Ironically, a working Mat Maestro will do all those things that Don mentioned. The downside is that there are, without exaggeration, only about a dozen working Mat Maestros in the entire world! I feel so special!
Ron
Ron
R
RonEggers
Guest
Ralph,
I don't think I want to fight with you about the Mat Maestro. If you've read any of my posts about this machine, you know I sincerely wish I'd bought an Eclipse, a Fletcher, a Wizard or anything other than a Mat Maestro. The point I was trying, and apparently failed, to make, was that the majority of the Mat Maestros out there can't cut anything at all. There are a handful of MMs that are, for the moment, working beautifully and will cut nearly anything you could want. I honestly wish yours was one of them.
(Did anyone else think I was promoting or defending the Mat Maestro?)
[This message has been edited by RonEggers (edited September 05, 2001).]
I don't think I want to fight with you about the Mat Maestro. If you've read any of my posts about this machine, you know I sincerely wish I'd bought an Eclipse, a Fletcher, a Wizard or anything other than a Mat Maestro. The point I was trying, and apparently failed, to make, was that the majority of the Mat Maestros out there can't cut anything at all. There are a handful of MMs that are, for the moment, working beautifully and will cut nearly anything you could want. I honestly wish yours was one of them.
(Did anyone else think I was promoting or defending the Mat Maestro?)
[This message has been edited by RonEggers (edited September 05, 2001).]
C
Croatcat
Guest
Definitely not me, Ron. But the funny thing is, since my MM is working again all I'm getting in are orders with floated art. I think the thing is sending out negative vibes.
Ditto on the Eclipse. My supplier has one, so I have had a chance to see it work. Zips right along. Someday...
Jim
Ditto on the Eclipse. My supplier has one, so I have had a chance to see it work. Zips right along. Someday...
Jim
- Joined
- Nov 5, 1997
- Posts
- 3,810
- Location
- Appleton, Wisconsin, USA
- Business
- The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc
Ron,
Glad your MM machine is working..........I'd wish a downed CMC, or a downed PC on nobody!
As your picture illustrates, you are capable of cutting different corners when needed on your MM, as does the Eclipse. Fletcher F-6100 owners will also be able to do this as well with their newest upgrade (shown in Atlanta in 2 weeks). (Not to sound like an advertisement.....I'm just sharing this info with those interested a "heads up".
Lettering has always been easy on an F-6100.....7 fonts to choose from. 1)Drop down tool box. 2)Select font, size, spacing. Options include Vert Up, Vert Down, Horizontal, Stepped or Angled. 3) Click...done.
As much as I recognize that these options help each of us sell unusual and creative mats, how much of our cutting is more generic, i.e. Rectangle openings, Oval Openings, Reverse bevels, V-grooves and multiple opening mats?
Obviously current CMC users can best answer this question, but I'd be willing to say that 90% plus falls into this later category. (It probably does in our shop.)
I'd be interested to hear the ratio from other CMC users, Wizard, Fletcher, Eclipse, Gunnar, Valiani and Mat Maestro?
John
------------------
(Technical consultant to The Fletcher-Terry Co.)
The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
www.theframeworkshop.com
Appleton, Wisconsin
jerserwi@aol.com
--------------------
[This message has been edited by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF (edited September 06, 2001).]
Glad your MM machine is working..........I'd wish a downed CMC, or a downed PC on nobody!
As your picture illustrates, you are capable of cutting different corners when needed on your MM, as does the Eclipse. Fletcher F-6100 owners will also be able to do this as well with their newest upgrade (shown in Atlanta in 2 weeks). (Not to sound like an advertisement.....I'm just sharing this info with those interested a "heads up".
Lettering has always been easy on an F-6100.....7 fonts to choose from. 1)Drop down tool box. 2)Select font, size, spacing. Options include Vert Up, Vert Down, Horizontal, Stepped or Angled. 3) Click...done.
As much as I recognize that these options help each of us sell unusual and creative mats, how much of our cutting is more generic, i.e. Rectangle openings, Oval Openings, Reverse bevels, V-grooves and multiple opening mats?
Obviously current CMC users can best answer this question, but I'd be willing to say that 90% plus falls into this later category. (It probably does in our shop.)
I'd be interested to hear the ratio from other CMC users, Wizard, Fletcher, Eclipse, Gunnar, Valiani and Mat Maestro?
John
------------------
(Technical consultant to The Fletcher-Terry Co.)
The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
www.theframeworkshop.com
Appleton, Wisconsin
jerserwi@aol.com
--------------------
[This message has been edited by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF (edited September 06, 2001).]
John:
We've talked about the F-6100 before, and I'm still trying to decide between Fletcher and Eclipse -- watching for information that might send me one way or the other. I'm coming closer to taking "the plunge" for a CMC, and may be prepared to seal a deal in Atlanta.
More questions for you, our able Fletcher expert: I've heard that the F-6100 has some difficulty with 8-ply mats. Izzatso? If so, what's the nature of the weakness? And will the latest upgrade better enable 8-ply cuts on the F-6100?
We've talked about the F-6100 before, and I'm still trying to decide between Fletcher and Eclipse -- watching for information that might send me one way or the other. I'm coming closer to taking "the plunge" for a CMC, and may be prepared to seal a deal in Atlanta.
More questions for you, our able Fletcher expert: I've heard that the F-6100 has some difficulty with 8-ply mats. Izzatso? If so, what's the nature of the weakness? And will the latest upgrade better enable 8-ply cuts on the F-6100?
R
RonEggers
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF:
how much of our cutting is more generic, i.e. Rectangle openings, Oval Openings, Reverse bevels, V-grooves and multiple opening mats? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Easily 90% of my mats fall into those latter categories. I have yet to need four different corners on one mat. Lots of multiple openings, though. The most dramatic test, for me, came with a mat that took me, pre-CMC, a full day to lay out and a half-day to cut. It was all straight lines,(for an entire magazine, notching around ads) but many windows and quite exacting. I'll post a picture if I get a chance later. If it had been off anywhere by 1/8", I would have had to start over. After I got my CMC, I laid out and cut the same mat and the whole operation took about 20 minutes. If it had been off, I would have wasted the board, but very little time, since adjustments can be made on the computer without having to start over.
In spite of a very bad experience with RCI and Mat Maestro (though better than many) I am very pro-CMC. Mine is a very small shop. I cut maybe 40 mats/week. But I look forward to those 40 and mat cutting is no longer the bottleneck that it used to be. Whether you rent, lease or purchase, I would encourage anyone who's serious about mat cutting to investigate one of the CMCs.
Ron
how much of our cutting is more generic, i.e. Rectangle openings, Oval Openings, Reverse bevels, V-grooves and multiple opening mats? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Easily 90% of my mats fall into those latter categories. I have yet to need four different corners on one mat. Lots of multiple openings, though. The most dramatic test, for me, came with a mat that took me, pre-CMC, a full day to lay out and a half-day to cut. It was all straight lines,(for an entire magazine, notching around ads) but many windows and quite exacting. I'll post a picture if I get a chance later. If it had been off anywhere by 1/8", I would have had to start over. After I got my CMC, I laid out and cut the same mat and the whole operation took about 20 minutes. If it had been off, I would have wasted the board, but very little time, since adjustments can be made on the computer without having to start over.
In spite of a very bad experience with RCI and Mat Maestro (though better than many) I am very pro-CMC. Mine is a very small shop. I cut maybe 40 mats/week. But I look forward to those 40 and mat cutting is no longer the bottleneck that it used to be. Whether you rent, lease or purchase, I would encourage anyone who's serious about mat cutting to investigate one of the CMCs.
Ron
framah
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
You are right, Ron. My apologies for jumping your case but my machine never was capable of pulling separate corners out of the library. Did you create them in the custom program? I was given a five minute lesson on how to work with the custom file where you can create whatever you want and never could get it to do anything for me. Also, the letters... when Marvin showed me how to create them, he showed me that I had to tell the computer which way to send the blade for every line of a letter and it had to be done backwards on the screen.
Obviously not what I was told by their sales rep. The whole thing is a moot point now as I no longer have mine. I will definitely be looking toward getting the Eclipse cutter when I get over the post cutter stress syndrome I'm currently going thru. The machine cuts like a dream and I watched it for over an hour at the open house at Don-Mar in Mass. last year. I'm going down there again this year and dig deeper into the machine. Anyone who is in the Northeast region should go to their open house on the 30th of September and check out the machine. Call them and verify times. Their number is 1-800-556-7428.
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Obviously not what I was told by their sales rep. The whole thing is a moot point now as I no longer have mine. I will definitely be looking toward getting the Eclipse cutter when I get over the post cutter stress syndrome I'm currently going thru. The machine cuts like a dream and I watched it for over an hour at the open house at Don-Mar in Mass. last year. I'm going down there again this year and dig deeper into the machine. Anyone who is in the Northeast region should go to their open house on the 30th of September and check out the machine. Call them and verify times. Their number is 1-800-556-7428.
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by framah:
Your machine will not cut a different style in each corner right from the library in the computer. This is the reason I had leased the machine in the first place. I was told by their sales rep that it WOULD cut different style cuts in each corner right from the library.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anything else?
Your machine will not cut a different style in each corner right from the library in the computer. This is the reason I had leased the machine in the first place. I was told by their sales rep that it WOULD cut different style cuts in each corner right from the library.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anything else?
R
RonEggers
Guest
Whoops, I forgot about clip art
B
billyearth
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Miller:
John:
We've talked about the F-6100 before, and I'm still trying to decide between Fletcher and Eclipse -- watching for information that might send me one way or the other. I'm coming closer to taking "the plunge" for a CMC, and may be prepared to seal a deal in Atlanta.
More questions for you, our able Fletcher expert: I've heard that the F-6100 has some difficulty with 8-ply mats. Izzatso? If so, what's the nature of the weakness? And will the latest upgrade better enable 8-ply cuts on the F-6100?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jim,
I exchanged emails with Brian Cone of Fletcher:
"The F6100 will cut 8-ply with the use of a special blade magazine and blade.
The result is a clean and accurate cut."
and
"There is a definite difference in 8 ply boards between manufacturers.
Crescent can be cut with a single pass using the 8 ply cartridge. Bainbridge board is more dense and is harder on the blade. It is recomended that a cut be made with the 6 ply magazine first followed by the 8 ply. The 6 ply will do most of the work, but not cut through. The 8 ply will finish the cut, following the exact path of the previous cut.
The blade cartridges are easily interchangeable(5 seconds or so)..."
I too am on the Fletcher / Eclipse fence. Hopefully I will side with one or the other at Atlanta (sure hope a third doesn't surface...)
------------------
Bill Lackner
Chevy Chase Gallery
wlackner@fakespacesystems.com
John:
We've talked about the F-6100 before, and I'm still trying to decide between Fletcher and Eclipse -- watching for information that might send me one way or the other. I'm coming closer to taking "the plunge" for a CMC, and may be prepared to seal a deal in Atlanta.
More questions for you, our able Fletcher expert: I've heard that the F-6100 has some difficulty with 8-ply mats. Izzatso? If so, what's the nature of the weakness? And will the latest upgrade better enable 8-ply cuts on the F-6100?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jim,
I exchanged emails with Brian Cone of Fletcher:
"The F6100 will cut 8-ply with the use of a special blade magazine and blade.
The result is a clean and accurate cut."
and
"There is a definite difference in 8 ply boards between manufacturers.
Crescent can be cut with a single pass using the 8 ply cartridge. Bainbridge board is more dense and is harder on the blade. It is recomended that a cut be made with the 6 ply magazine first followed by the 8 ply. The 6 ply will do most of the work, but not cut through. The 8 ply will finish the cut, following the exact path of the previous cut.
The blade cartridges are easily interchangeable(5 seconds or so)..."
I too am on the Fletcher / Eclipse fence. Hopefully I will side with one or the other at Atlanta (sure hope a third doesn't surface...)
------------------
Bill Lackner
Chevy Chase Gallery
wlackner@fakespacesystems.com
I like Fletcher as a company -- always have. Everyone I know who has a Fletcher loves it, and the company's support/updates/etc. Having John Ranes to tap for quick answers here and on HH is a terrific benefit.
Maybe my mind's made up.
Maybe my mind's made up.
J
John Gornall CPF
Guest
The Fletcher-Terry F-6100 computer mat cutter from the outset had the ability of cutting a vast range of mat designs. The continuing evolution of the software makes designs easier and quicker to develop and cut. I couldn't resist adding a picture to this post showing an opening with 12 different corner patterns cut on my F-6100. Certainly not very useful but gives an idea of the potential for creative mat cutting. Many framers I have spoken to have some wonderful mat design in mind that they have never cut because they didn't have the tools or the time. The F-6100 is the tool and the time falls into line profitably. If you're going to Atlanta I suggest the Fletcher-Terry seminar on Thursday.
[This message has been edited by John Gornall CPF (edited September 08, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by John Gornall CPF (edited September 08, 2001).]
F
Frugal Framer
Guest
I have no comment on any of the Eclipse attributes, but it appears that there are not that many Eclipse owners out there that can comment either. Out of all the postings, only 1 is from an Eclipse owner. All of the other comments on this thread are regarding the MM and F-6100. I wonder if that has any meaning or validity.
Having owned a Wizard & Fletcher, I know that there are some functions that one will do that the other will not & visa-versa.
Greater than 97% of the openings cut fit John Ranes latter category. I have the 8 ply optional cartridge for the F-6100 and have yet to cut an 8 ply mat or 1/8" foam core except for experimentation, but I guess different styles have varying popularity around the country.
Rick Bergeron - CPFcm
Coeur d'Alene, ID
[This message has been edited by Frugal Framer (edited September 09, 2001).]
Having owned a Wizard & Fletcher, I know that there are some functions that one will do that the other will not & visa-versa.
Greater than 97% of the openings cut fit John Ranes latter category. I have the 8 ply optional cartridge for the F-6100 and have yet to cut an 8 ply mat or 1/8" foam core except for experimentation, but I guess different styles have varying popularity around the country.
Rick Bergeron - CPFcm
Coeur d'Alene, ID
[This message has been edited by Frugal Framer (edited September 09, 2001).]
po' framer
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
We went through the agony of making a CMC decision some time back. I remember being surprised at the emotions which were stirred up during the discussions.
We went with the Wizard rental program and have been very satisfied. I wish it would cut closer to the edges than it does, is the only real drawback I've discovered so far, but my picky Mizz po' framer has been very happy with the quality of its cuts and I've been very happy with the tech support.
I, too, liked both the Eclipse and Fletcher machines very much. If they developed a rental program instead of staying with the traditional stodgy ways they do business, they'd have a lot more machines out there than they do now. Wizard has really gone out there with their line of business and seems to be well-rewarded for taking that risk.
I'm not very good with the Cadd yet and need to get better.
Everybody seems to always talk about the geewhiz cuts that a CMC will do, but the only place I really see those kinds of cuts are at trade shows and shop walls.
We got our CMC because I became convinced that it was an efficiency issue for a small shop. Our experience has shown that to be correct. The more difficult the job, the more difference is demonstrated between CMC and manual systems. (multi-opening, multi-layered jobs in particular)
Almost 100% of our jobs are "typical": basic openings, corners and such. We have done some fun things with labels and offset v-grooves which turn heads. We probably don't sell the geewhiz stuff as much as we could, but it just isn't the reason we got the thing.
The one area in which the CMC has had an impact where I misjudged is in stress. Doing heretofore very difficult jobs is no big deal and matcutting in general is a much more relaxing time than it used to be. The biggest plus for me, however, is in the reduced physical stress on mizz po'framer's back and hands.
Framer's original advice after getting his machine is still sound: Whichever one you like, get one and get it now, however you can.
We went with the Wizard rental program and have been very satisfied. I wish it would cut closer to the edges than it does, is the only real drawback I've discovered so far, but my picky Mizz po' framer has been very happy with the quality of its cuts and I've been very happy with the tech support.
I, too, liked both the Eclipse and Fletcher machines very much. If they developed a rental program instead of staying with the traditional stodgy ways they do business, they'd have a lot more machines out there than they do now. Wizard has really gone out there with their line of business and seems to be well-rewarded for taking that risk.
I'm not very good with the Cadd yet and need to get better.
Everybody seems to always talk about the geewhiz cuts that a CMC will do, but the only place I really see those kinds of cuts are at trade shows and shop walls.
We got our CMC because I became convinced that it was an efficiency issue for a small shop. Our experience has shown that to be correct. The more difficult the job, the more difference is demonstrated between CMC and manual systems. (multi-opening, multi-layered jobs in particular)
Almost 100% of our jobs are "typical": basic openings, corners and such. We have done some fun things with labels and offset v-grooves which turn heads. We probably don't sell the geewhiz stuff as much as we could, but it just isn't the reason we got the thing.
The one area in which the CMC has had an impact where I misjudged is in stress. Doing heretofore very difficult jobs is no big deal and matcutting in general is a much more relaxing time than it used to be. The biggest plus for me, however, is in the reduced physical stress on mizz po'framer's back and hands.
Framer's original advice after getting his machine is still sound: Whichever one you like, get one and get it now, however you can.
I would to ask a question about CMCs that has bothered me for a while. Is the process of installing a fillet made easier by the fact that the openning cut by a CMC perfectly square??
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
F
Frugal Framer
Guest
Fillets?
Without a doubt, many times easier and quicker to fit with CMC cuts because they are as close to perfect as possible. You can almost (but not quite) cut the fillet to the opening dimensions entered into the CMC and the two fit perfectly.
Rick Bergeron - CPFcm
Coeur d'Alene, ID
Without a doubt, many times easier and quicker to fit with CMC cuts because they are as close to perfect as possible. You can almost (but not quite) cut the fillet to the opening dimensions entered into the CMC and the two fit perfectly.
Rick Bergeron - CPFcm
Coeur d'Alene, ID
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 16,761
John is right on the mark for us ,too. We might do a VCADD design once a day, but most are more basic,traditional cuts. Pretty much the same ratio as when we handcut, but just so much faster and accurate now.
But my comments are more directed to Jim Miller and his way too long research program of selecting a CMC. Jump in the deep end, Jimbo. You'll never look back, no matter which unit you select. And you'll kick yourself in the behind for not doing it earlier. And do it at Atlanta (or sooner) so that you'll have it delivered and you'll be set up and pretty competent before the holdiays. Then you'll be sending a case of Johhny Walker Red to John Ranes and Rick and me and every other person that's been nudging you to the trough. I guarantee it.
But my comments are more directed to Jim Miller and his way too long research program of selecting a CMC. Jump in the deep end, Jimbo. You'll never look back, no matter which unit you select. And you'll kick yourself in the behind for not doing it earlier. And do it at Atlanta (or sooner) so that you'll have it delivered and you'll be set up and pretty competent before the holdiays. Then you'll be sending a case of Johhny Walker Red to John Ranes and Rick and me and every other person that's been nudging you to the trough. I guarantee it.
Don
Grumbler
I'm in agreement the sooner the better. Being as I'm an Eclipse owner I will remain an Eclipse fan. As to the particular time of my research the Eclipse had by far better software and design capabilities. Obviously from this string the Fletcher has made some great improvements. Either way they are probably both great machines.
As far as the number of Eclipse owners compared to Fletcher owners that has to do with exposure of your business. How many of you knew who Eclipse was 5 years ago? How many of you new who Fletcher was? It is the same concept as it was in computers. Which is better IBM or MacIntosh. I personally don't know but that didn't mean one was better than the other.
I do have a question to pose on this discussion. Why does the angle of the blade on a CMC cut larger than on a hand cutter? Does this seem to bother anyone else? When I cut a second mat with an 1/8 inch reveal I see about a 1/16 inch of color and a rather wide white line from the bevel. Especially when working with the thicker Moorman suede mats.
As far as percentage of fancy mats compared to normal square or oval type mats, I would say about 75% are considered normal. During christmas time that drops to about 60-65%. I have a large xstitch clientelle and they like their items creative and odd shapes sure can help out!
So whatever you choose an IBM or a MAC, an Eclipse(my favorite) or a Fletcher, the important thing is that you jump into the high tech. world and enjoy the benefits of its advantages.
I hope this makes sense I have a 2yr. old on my lap!
Don
As far as the number of Eclipse owners compared to Fletcher owners that has to do with exposure of your business. How many of you knew who Eclipse was 5 years ago? How many of you new who Fletcher was? It is the same concept as it was in computers. Which is better IBM or MacIntosh. I personally don't know but that didn't mean one was better than the other.
I do have a question to pose on this discussion. Why does the angle of the blade on a CMC cut larger than on a hand cutter? Does this seem to bother anyone else? When I cut a second mat with an 1/8 inch reveal I see about a 1/16 inch of color and a rather wide white line from the bevel. Especially when working with the thicker Moorman suede mats.
As far as percentage of fancy mats compared to normal square or oval type mats, I would say about 75% are considered normal. During christmas time that drops to about 60-65%. I have a large xstitch clientelle and they like their items creative and odd shapes sure can help out!
So whatever you choose an IBM or a MAC, an Eclipse(my favorite) or a Fletcher, the important thing is that you jump into the high tech. world and enjoy the benefits of its advantages.
I hope this makes sense I have a 2yr. old on my lap!
Don
framebot
Grumbler
So, if the participants of the thread get cases of Scotch, does that mean the creator of the thread gets a bottle.
Thanks to all for the enlightenment and encouragement.
Thanks to all for the enlightenment and encouragement.