Question Art vs Framing Measurements

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Dave

Dave

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Framers generally measure width first and height second. A 30X24 frame would indicate in framing software that the frame is horizontal in orientation. I'm not sure if my POS software, FrameReady would even allow me to change this preset.

Galleries and museums measure the height first and width second. A 30X24 to a gallery would indicate a vertical orientation.

I believe a carpenter/ builder also measures height first. What other examples can you think of? Printers, photographers, ... what is their standard?

Are framers just an odd bunch??? (We all know the answer to that question!)

Why the disconnect? Must be historical procedural reasons.

:shrug:
 
This can be toggled with many of the popular programs "Vertical before Horizontal" is the option in LifeSaver's settings.

The question itself is interesting, though. I don't know why they do it that way. :)
 
Just a random standard, could have easily gone the other way.
A pain that Wizard uses WXH and all the measurements I do for my POS, and galleries/museums are HXW. Good thing we don't have depth to consider (museum standard is HXWXD I believe).
 
Yes...interesting....

prospero said:
I measure the long side first. Which could be vertical or horizontal. :icon11:
Click to expand...

With paper sizes, isn't it the short x long as in 8-1/2 x 11 inches or or.... (Legal) 8-1/2 x 15?

What about photographic prints (regardless of orientation), 11x14, 5x7, 4x6, 3-1/2x5?

Glass sizes (North America) are boxed in 8x10, 9x12, 11x14, 22x28 and so forth.


My mind set is to make reference in coversation short x long and then indicate orientation Horz or Vert / Landscape or Portrait.

Mike Labbe @ GTP said:
This can be toggled with many of the popular programs "Vertical before Horizontal" is the option in LifeSaver's settings.
Click to expand...

I'll have to go back and look as it becomes so second nature, but with Specialty Soft, I believe that we can input the data EITHER way which then indicates the orientation.


John
 
It seems to vary with personal inclination or trade practiced, though, in the museum world it is consistently h. x w. x d. because of "The Book",

Museum Registration Methods by Dudley,Dorothy H.; Wilkinson, Irma B. and Others. 1958, ad infinitum.

Since I deal with museums, my POS (points at head) is set up to speak the language; height precedes width.
 
Interesting question.

What I find interesting is how few people seem to know what "vertical" or "horizontal" means anymore. I frequently have to lower myself to their level and use "portrait" and "landscape."

Annoys the heck out of me.
 
Bron said:
It seems to vary with personal inclination or trade practiced, though, in the museum world it is consistently h. x w. x d. because of "The Book",

Museum Registration Methods by Dudley,Dorothy H.; Wilkinson, Irma B. and Others. 1958, ad infinitum.

Since I deal with museums, my POS (points at head) is set up to speak the language; height precedes width.
Click to expand...

I have had the same experience, this under utilized fact allows any one "in the know" to know the orientation of the piece.

I think the PPFA and all framers should follow this as a rule, my 2 cents.
 
I just looked up what the mathematics have to say about it, and it's what I recall: "Area= WH". So, the "Book" that Bron makes reference to for the Museum standards is truly the arbitrary one, IMO.

John makes a good a good observation of the lesser-number-first of size-described materials like glass, paper, etc.

That said, it seems to vary case by case (in my experience), which dimension gets recorded first and then the orientation is noted as V(ertical) or H(orizontal).
 
I have no vested interest; no residuals pouring in if height precedes width, but the American Association of Museums uses the Dudley Book, has a very comprehensive accreditation program, and very high standards for how museums operate. Yes, originally it probably was arbitrary, but after fifty some years, in that niche, it is the accepted practice. Does the PPFA have some standards as regards measurements? I don't know; some with more involvement may have the answer. Jim Miller, your cue.

If I don't have an image, or do the measurements myself, I usually ask what the orientation is, because of the way I construct my frames. And, having spent a lot of time in photo darkrooms, I'm a little schizophrenic about it; photo paper is short x long, as until it's printed, there is no orientation. Same with artist's papers.
 
I meant no offense Bron. Really. I mentioned you only because of your mention of that guide book. I just meant that Dudley's is arbitrary--------well, so is the area formula, but with a more distant pedigree. :)
 
John Ranes II said:
With paper sizes, isn't it the short x long as in 8-1/2 x 11 inches or or.... (Legal) 8-1/2 x 15?

What about photographic prints (regardless of orientation), 11x14, 5x7, 4x6, 3-1/2x5?

Glass sizes (North America) are boxed in 8x10, 9x12, 11x14, 22x28 and so forth.


My mind set is to make reference in coversation short x long and then indicate orientation Horz or Vert / Landscape or Portrait.



I'll have to go back and look as it becomes so second nature, but with Specialty Soft, I believe that we can input the data EITHER way which then indicates the orientation.


John
Click to expand...

Wow, I feel so much better!! That's exactly what I do. There really are few times that it really matters (weighted bottom mat boarder, fabric, etc), so :shrug:

The smaller number first just sounds better to me!
 
Dana, No offense taken; It does seem arbitrary, though. Probably because registrars tend to be somewhat obsessive, but for whatever reason, that's the museum standard. Since I deal with museums, I speak museum.

I routinely use butt joined blind frames on frames I build, and I prefer that the cross grain ends are at the top and bottom, so I want to know orientation.

Butt Joint
 
Dave said:
Framers generally measure width first and height second. A 30X24 frame would indicate in framing software that the frame is horizontal in orientation. I believe a carpenter/ builder also measures height first. What other examples can you think of? Printers, photographers, ... what is their standard?

Are framers just an odd bunch??? (We all know the answer to that question!)

Why the disconnect? Must be historical procedural reasons.

:shrug:
Click to expand...

Cabinets - Doors and Windows are specified width x height. Ask for a W3012 and you will get a wall cabinet 30" wide x 12" high. A W1230 will get you a wall cabinet 12" wide x 30" high, unless someone in order fullfillment screws up.
 
It would be nice to see this strandardized... I also prefer the H x W Like they said it is what the museums/preservationist use. You know you will never change them.....

anyone remember what F>A>C>T>S said about it?
 
Thought provoking question Dave, I never really thought about it before, but, I can tell you that the width first, height second, method is the standard for the blind and drapery industry.
 
WIDTH......than Height here...... you others are wack~a~doodle...... :D :D :D

Along with those with that left ~handed disease...... :D :D D:
 
FramerDave said:
I'm finding it hard to get worked up over this. Just do whatever you want, but be consistent and do it every time.

Problem solved.
Click to expand...

It does cause problems in a combined gallery / frame shop and when conversing with museum directors on framing projects.
 
So what is long and short of it? I make all mine square so I don't have to figure it out. ( Can't find my green, so pretend this is in green )
 
Dave said:
It does cause problems in a combined gallery / frame shop and when conversing with museum directors on framing projects.
Click to expand...

Well yeah. If the frame shop and gallery are combined, then it's the same business and someone gets to play boss and decide which way it's going to be done. If your client is a museum director, that's who you have to please, so decide on a consistent system and stick to it.
 
John Ranes II said:
With paper sizes, isn't it the short x long as in 8-1/2 x 11 inches or or.... (Legal) 8-1/2 x 15?

What about photographic prints (regardless of orientation), 11x14, 5x7, 4x6, 3-1/2x5?

Glass sizes (North America) are boxed in 8x10, 9x12, 11x14, 22x28 and so forth.

My mind set is to make reference in coversation short x long and then indicate orientation Horz or Vert / Landscape or Portrait.
Click to expand...

That's the way I do it too. It just sounds more "natural" to me. As mentioned, though, the Wizard wants the width measurement first.
:popc: Rick
 
Width x Height

Hi Dave,

This is a very interesting thread. I realize that each person we deal with in our store will use different terminology; the museum director will choose HxW, the woodworker may say WxH, and the regular client will say it is ‘portrait’.

What is important, is that the shop is consistent in their terminology. Your FrameReady software will always display as WxH. The orientation box will print a rectangle onto your Work Order to show whether it is vertical or horizontal as a double check and quick visual reference for the framer. The “Swap” button will quickly and easily reverse the Width and Height if it is entered incorrectly.

FrameReady also has a option to automatically bottom weight the mats when a work order is created. This makes it necessary to keep the width and height fields consistent.

:( Sorry Dave, we do not have an option to reverse the WxH fields throughout the entire program. You know that we are always open to new ideas to add to the software program. However, if there are things that will not make it into the next upgrade, we will tell you up front. Right now, this is one of them.
 
Cool Beans

Diversion Ahead!!

Smile with Style said:
...FrameReady also has a option to automatically bottom weight the mats when a work order is created. This makes it necessary to keep the width and height fields consistent...
Click to expand...

Carol, Interesting feature. :thumbsup:

Does it vary as a percentage? Fixed Amount? Or Incremental steps?

John
 
Thanks

John,
It is a fixed amount; same amount for all frame sizes (Eg. 1/2"). Of course, it can be removed or adjusted on the order if needed.
 
Which way is up?

Less has an art gallery/frame shop. Less measures and labels height first to establish if it is a veritcal or horizontal. Many artists understand, Less educates the rest.

Framing customers don't care. Less will often ask if it is a vertical or horizontal? There usually is a pause.

An 18 x 24 is a horizontal, a 24 x 18 is a vertical.
 
Randy, Less, your succinctness is to be admired.

I just heard back from a registrar friend, himself puzzled by by this, who looked through "THE BOOK" and found no explanation.

Arbitrary?

Alas, being fluent in "Museum", I shall continue with H x W, in spite of Nicolle's belief that this makes me "wack-a-doodle". Ah, well, at least I'm not "sinister".

8-)
 
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