Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Reread the post. The last comments you make were my first explanation.
YOU ARE RIGHT THAT THE HL YOU WORKED AT HAD ONE. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT THE RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are perfect v-grooves possible?
- Thread starter Montacute
- Start date
- Status
Reread the post. The last comments you make were my first explanation.
YOU ARE RIGHT THAT THE HL YOU WORKED AT HAD ONE. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT THE RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thedra
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
And that Hobby Lobby in Carbondale just upgraded to an 8500. That bit of competition was one of the factors in me putting in my 8000.
Tom
Tom
Montacute
Grumbler
Tom, wow--you are clearly very invested in this issue! I'd like to respond to some of your points. My framer and I both agreed that there was a "debate" on the forum. I initially posted here to see if perfect v-grooves were even within the realm of framing possibility because I didn't know. I was then asked for pictures and obliged. I am completely stumped as to what facts you feel you didn't get. I obviously did talk to my framer when I pointed out what I saw as defects and asked that the v-grooves be redone. That would have been an excellent time for me to be informed that they could not do better.
I have learned very much in this thread, including info about CMC's. I could not have talked about hand-carving vs. computer carving very well at all before the input I received here. I want to state again that I initially chose this framer because of the pictures of their portfolio that they had on their online site, showing very complex mats. After helping me choose the mat colors and frame, I asked about a fancy mat. I was told they couldn't do that, that they no longer had the machine. I honestly didn't figure at that point she was talking about a CMC and she no longer had any CMC. I could not have uttered the phrase CMC. The framer suggested v-grooves and I said OK. That was my mistake. I should have left when I was told they couldn't do fancy mats. I was not educated enough.
As far as hand-crafting and imperfections, I can promise you that if you look at my needlework you will not find a flaw with the naked eye. I rip out and redo flaws and I feel that is what distinguishes the true craftsman. I do not ask for more than I am willing to do with my art. I am also not aware of the rule that says you have to be a professional in the field in order to critique the work. That makes no sense on any level.
Finally, please know I am not pretending to be a professional framer in any way. I am learning.
I've decided I no longer want to known as "picky". I'd prefer "discerning" from now on."
I picked up my refund and got back the other piece I had left for framing. No one was upset and we both said we were sorry things didn't work out.
I hope you have a better day, Tom.
I have learned very much in this thread, including info about CMC's. I could not have talked about hand-carving vs. computer carving very well at all before the input I received here. I want to state again that I initially chose this framer because of the pictures of their portfolio that they had on their online site, showing very complex mats. After helping me choose the mat colors and frame, I asked about a fancy mat. I was told they couldn't do that, that they no longer had the machine. I honestly didn't figure at that point she was talking about a CMC and she no longer had any CMC. I could not have uttered the phrase CMC. The framer suggested v-grooves and I said OK. That was my mistake. I should have left when I was told they couldn't do fancy mats. I was not educated enough.
As far as hand-crafting and imperfections, I can promise you that if you look at my needlework you will not find a flaw with the naked eye. I rip out and redo flaws and I feel that is what distinguishes the true craftsman. I do not ask for more than I am willing to do with my art. I am also not aware of the rule that says you have to be a professional in the field in order to critique the work. That makes no sense on any level.
Finally, please know I am not pretending to be a professional framer in any way. I am learning.
I've decided I no longer want to known as "picky". I'd prefer "discerning" from now on."
I picked up my refund and got back the other piece I had left for framing. No one was upset and we both said we were sorry things didn't work out.
I hope you have a better day, Tom.
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
Yikes, glad i am not the framer being raked over the coals here. The v-groove looks acceptable to me. It is hand done after all.
I've had mats cut on the CMC that have hooks in them too.
Also, all the the Hobby Lobby's here I have visited have their own CMC's. I used to lament over the one near the Michael's I worked at. I couldn't understand why they all had computerized mat cutters when I did so much more volume. That was many many years ago too. HL outfitted their stores with CMC's way before the rest of us did.
I've had mats cut on the CMC that have hooks in them too.
Also, all the the Hobby Lobby's here I have visited have their own CMC's. I used to lament over the one near the Michael's I worked at. I couldn't understand why they all had computerized mat cutters when I did so much more volume. That was many many years ago too. HL outfitted their stores with CMC's way before the rest of us did.
Montacute
Grumbler
Is this an anomoly? I would have thought a CMC would cut the same way every time?
Whether the cutting blade is powered by electricity or by human muscle power, it is still subject to the physics of being dragged through a fibrous material. Life is full of inconsistencies (this is how we get evolution 
), and even a perfectly calibrated machine and operator will have better results on some days than on others. That's about as far as it goes. I hope you find satisfaction in whatever resolution you pursue, but I do think this topic, too, has gone about as far as it can.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
), and even a perfectly calibrated machine and operator will have better results on some days than on others. That's about as far as it goes. I hope you find satisfaction in whatever resolution you pursue, but I do think this topic, too, has gone about as far as it can.:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
T
Tom Reigle
Guest
One of the basic concepts that a new framer should learn is that trying to get "just one more cut" out of a .10¢ mat cutter blade is foolish at best. The average cost of a rag mat board is probably over $10 now and to not change mat cutter blades on a very regular basis is just wasting time and money and probably the cause of those bristley cuts that were shown and mentioned earlier. It just makes no sense at all to ruin a good quality mat board by not being conscientious about changing those dull mat blades once in awhile!!
The same premise holds true whether you are cutting by hand or using a CMC. There is nothing magic about a computerized mat cutter. The blades wear out and dull on them just as fast or faster than on a manual machine and they will cause the same problems, rough cuts, hooked corners, and crooked runs in the cut openings no matter what make or model. That comes under the category of "operator error" in my book. And many new framers are seeing hooked corners and rough cuts without knowing where they are coming from. They blame the machine, the mat boards, anything but their ignorance of not changing a simple inexpensive mat blade sometimes after every 2 or 3 cuts if the situation warrants doing do.
I am not angry with you or anyone else. I am just using the "Gunney" method of driving some valid points home. These things have come up so many times since I joined this forum in 2001 and I guess, if the search engine on the forum is too complicated to learn to use, then maybe some straightforward lesson learning is called for.
I never planned on winning any popularity contests on the Grumble and I have kept that goal firmly in focus.
Thank you for at least reading through my post and responding to whatever you took personally. I still say that there are definite limits to what a mere mortal can do with a knife blade and a piece of compressed cotton fiber no matter what other's expectations may be. Most of my experiences can be found under the login of "Framerguy" so you can practice using the "Search" button to see how many thousands of mats and needleart pieces and V-grooves and 3 dimensional aka, open V-grooves I have cut in my day.
Just fact, no brag intended.
And, again, good luck with your new framer.
PaulSF
PFG, Picture Framing God
Tom, you're absolutely right. If I'm cutting mats on any particular day, the first thing I do is change the blade. Even if I only cut one mat the day before, I start each day with a fresh blade.
Even so, a v-groove isn't just four passes of the blade. Each v-groove is 8 passes of the blade. And a double v-groove like the one pictured is 16 passes of the blade. So if you start with a fresh blade, your last pass might require a bit of touch-up.
Even so, a v-groove isn't just four passes of the blade. Each v-groove is 8 passes of the blade. And a double v-groove like the one pictured is 16 passes of the blade. So if you start with a fresh blade, your last pass might require a bit of touch-up.
Natalya Murphy
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Yes, a CMC can cut the same way every time... but CMCs need to be calibrated to get perfect corners. Otherwise, it is possible to get hooked corners and overcuts... every time.
Just because it's a machine doesn't make it foolproof. Setting the blade depth wrong can cause issues, or failing to align the cutting head correctly before cutting. Yes, it's a machine but it's controlled by a fallible human being.
I can't belive some of the replies I am seeing
IMHO this thread is outrageous. I am sorry if anyone doesn't accept what I am about to say but PERFECTION in anything isn't obtainable. Not even in the most fastidiously laboured over needle art. Hand crafted work does have slight irregularities that are within the scope of acceptability.I say this with little fear of contradiction since My wife has participated and won several needle art competitions among Shop owners of a needle art society and I can assure you that at least one of her works which was judged by some of the industries for most experts , in fact one of the judges was the originator of the design. prior to the entrance of the work My wife asked an opinion about which way a thread should twist on it last turn and was so disheartened she threw the work in the trash. I insisted that she enter the work any way and framed it for her. She was told that the judges like this customer claimed would inspect the work with a magnifying Glass while perched on a step ladder. It not only passed inspection but won the classification.
My point is that even under the most meticulious inspection some things just aren't really that visible unless they are known or pointed out. Case in point the width of the inside and outside V-grooves are said to hook with some very large magnification and be reason for making a major complaint but until someone here mentioned an Obvious OVER cut that didn't even seem to worth mentioning as a complaint. In any Framing competition I have seen or been entered in OVER CUTS would be considered a NO NO by any one and those v-grooves IMHO wouldn't even rate a second look.
I can think of several reason other than poor workmanship or just lack of care that might cause a slightly uneven sized grove especially when done by hand and two grooves are positioned so closely together. First if the technique used is that of repositioning the drop after trimming it , the slightest misplacement of the drop may indeed cause one corner or another to APPEAR to be improperly cut. Next when attempting to cut the second groove the mat may shift ever so sightly because of the proximity of the other grove and the mat which is now tapped together flexing minutely . and these are in addition to those already suggested like plunge speed , fresh blades, entry points, cuuter regulating, etc. which need to be done regularly in any shop just to come close.
As for the CMC being able to remedy this it might provided that all calibrations are exact and all blades are fresh and there aren't any changes in mat composition caused by humidity or denser fiber. But make no mistake that as refined as any CMC is ( and there are many good ones , none having a corner on PERFECTION) it is just a very advanced TOOL . But any tool in the hands of someone unskilled will never produce perfection nor will any tool that is not tuned to the best it can be and kept there always.
With all I have said it might seem that under the right conditions PERFECTION is obtainable But IMHO and that of any right thinking crafts person there will always be one thing we miss. But Coming close to perfection is an ART and an envible one, no matter if cutting a mat or doing needle art. Otherwise why would anyone have to rip out what they stitched and redo it ? maybe to only redo it again and again. But in the real world of PRODUCTION work ( Including Frame shops) Near perfection is not only acceptable it is enviable, and claims to the contrary or just those looking for excuses or putting down the best efforts of others.
And IMHO this has gone on too long. My advise to anyone that is so PICKY/Particular is to open a frame shop and do your own, which IMO it seems you wanted to when you went to framing school. Only if you want to pay the bills you may find that only doing your own work over and over till YOU THINK it is PERFECT will cause you close your doors quicker than you ever got them opened.
BUDDY
IMHO this thread is outrageous. I am sorry if anyone doesn't accept what I am about to say but PERFECTION in anything isn't obtainable. Not even in the most fastidiously laboured over needle art. Hand crafted work does have slight irregularities that are within the scope of acceptability.I say this with little fear of contradiction since My wife has participated and won several needle art competitions among Shop owners of a needle art society and I can assure you that at least one of her works which was judged by some of the industries for most experts , in fact one of the judges was the originator of the design. prior to the entrance of the work My wife asked an opinion about which way a thread should twist on it last turn and was so disheartened she threw the work in the trash. I insisted that she enter the work any way and framed it for her. She was told that the judges like this customer claimed would inspect the work with a magnifying Glass while perched on a step ladder. It not only passed inspection but won the classification.
My point is that even under the most meticulious inspection some things just aren't really that visible unless they are known or pointed out. Case in point the width of the inside and outside V-grooves are said to hook with some very large magnification and be reason for making a major complaint but until someone here mentioned an Obvious OVER cut that didn't even seem to worth mentioning as a complaint. In any Framing competition I have seen or been entered in OVER CUTS would be considered a NO NO by any one and those v-grooves IMHO wouldn't even rate a second look.
I can think of several reason other than poor workmanship or just lack of care that might cause a slightly uneven sized grove especially when done by hand and two grooves are positioned so closely together. First if the technique used is that of repositioning the drop after trimming it , the slightest misplacement of the drop may indeed cause one corner or another to APPEAR to be improperly cut. Next when attempting to cut the second groove the mat may shift ever so sightly because of the proximity of the other grove and the mat which is now tapped together flexing minutely . and these are in addition to those already suggested like plunge speed , fresh blades, entry points, cuuter regulating, etc. which need to be done regularly in any shop just to come close.
As for the CMC being able to remedy this it might provided that all calibrations are exact and all blades are fresh and there aren't any changes in mat composition caused by humidity or denser fiber. But make no mistake that as refined as any CMC is ( and there are many good ones , none having a corner on PERFECTION) it is just a very advanced TOOL . But any tool in the hands of someone unskilled will never produce perfection nor will any tool that is not tuned to the best it can be and kept there always.
With all I have said it might seem that under the right conditions PERFECTION is obtainable But IMHO and that of any right thinking crafts person there will always be one thing we miss. But Coming close to perfection is an ART and an envible one, no matter if cutting a mat or doing needle art. Otherwise why would anyone have to rip out what they stitched and redo it ? maybe to only redo it again and again. But in the real world of PRODUCTION work ( Including Frame shops) Near perfection is not only acceptable it is enviable, and claims to the contrary or just those looking for excuses or putting down the best efforts of others.
And IMHO this has gone on too long. My advise to anyone that is so PICKY/Particular is to open a frame shop and do your own, which IMO it seems you wanted to when you went to framing school. Only if you want to pay the bills you may find that only doing your own work over and over till YOU THINK it is PERFECT will cause you close your doors quicker than you ever got them opened.
BUDDY
Karen
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
I have read this post from the beginning and just keep shaking my head at how many of you have complained about a picky customer in the past or have told stories about their pickiest customer.
We framers come here when we have a picky customer or other problems to discuss with each other opinions on how we handled the situation and to see if we could of handle things better or to get ideas how to do our job better.
When this picky customer posts a statement some of you jump immediately to the customers side and hang the framer out to dry.
This customer is very educated and it's great that she wants to be informed. Continuing education is great in all things. It might be something she should consider doing herself (becoming a framer) so that things are perfect everytime the first time. Isn't that why we go to trade shows and take classes?
In addtion to the of questioning the framers ability, skills and state of mind shouldn't we also be asking what could be going on in this or any customers life to make them this picky or unreasonble. Could they be having a hard time at work or in their personal life? A death in the family? Did they have to pull out and redo the needlework 10 times before they got it perfect and thus want the whole package to be perfect? Is this the only area in the customers life that they have control of?
I know times are tough, but wow it's cut throat here with "if you were in my neck of the woods" statements and getting one up on others. Are we so insecure with our abilities that we have to prove that we're better than each other? Will this get us customers from other parts of the country to keep our business going in a slowing economy?
EQUIPMENT, PEOPLE and MATERIALS are NEVER PERFECT!! Those of you who have all three at a time congratulations!!!
The customer ISN'T always right but they are still the customer.
To the framer, (if you still come to the grumble after all of this) congratulations for being very professional. Take a deep breath and get back to pleasing the customers who appreciate you.
While I respect everyone's opinions on here, and very seldom post, the information on the grumble is usually invaluable to some of us that come up against something we haven't dealt with before and we usually can count on someone who has the techniques or information that will work for us. But I have to say that in the last 6 months it isn't a very friendly place to be.
We framers come here when we have a picky customer or other problems to discuss with each other opinions on how we handled the situation and to see if we could of handle things better or to get ideas how to do our job better.
When this picky customer posts a statement some of you jump immediately to the customers side and hang the framer out to dry.
This customer is very educated and it's great that she wants to be informed. Continuing education is great in all things. It might be something she should consider doing herself (becoming a framer) so that things are perfect everytime the first time. Isn't that why we go to trade shows and take classes?
In addtion to the of questioning the framers ability, skills and state of mind shouldn't we also be asking what could be going on in this or any customers life to make them this picky or unreasonble. Could they be having a hard time at work or in their personal life? A death in the family? Did they have to pull out and redo the needlework 10 times before they got it perfect and thus want the whole package to be perfect? Is this the only area in the customers life that they have control of?
I know times are tough, but wow it's cut throat here with "if you were in my neck of the woods" statements and getting one up on others. Are we so insecure with our abilities that we have to prove that we're better than each other? Will this get us customers from other parts of the country to keep our business going in a slowing economy?
EQUIPMENT, PEOPLE and MATERIALS are NEVER PERFECT!! Those of you who have all three at a time congratulations!!!
The customer ISN'T always right but they are still the customer.
To the framer, (if you still come to the grumble after all of this) congratulations for being very professional. Take a deep breath and get back to pleasing the customers who appreciate you.
While I respect everyone's opinions on here, and very seldom post, the information on the grumble is usually invaluable to some of us that come up against something we haven't dealt with before and we usually can count on someone who has the techniques or information that will work for us. But I have to say that in the last 6 months it isn't a very friendly place to be.
OK. I'm opening an alternative cans of worms now.
I had another look at the full frame picture just to see if the v-groove glitches were noticeable when veiwed as a whole. They aren't really.
But....
Take a look at the top margin on the inner mat. Even accounting for the bevel on the top mat being in shadow, it looks too wide to me.
Or are my eyes going funny?
I had another look at the full frame picture just to see if the v-groove glitches were noticeable when veiwed as a whole. They aren't really.
But....
Take a look at the top margin on the inner mat. Even accounting for the bevel on the top mat being in shadow, it looks too wide to me.
Or are my eyes going funny?
It really does,but photography can do some strange stuff,shadow and all......Still not sure why so many people have their undies in a bunch over this.I suppose it`s ok far off(I still see the problem),but isn`t the point to make the customer happy...regardless of our opinions,even if we all loved the work,we don`t live with it!.I am THAT picky too. Like I said before,there`s hardly a member here that wouldn`t gladly throttle me if I was a customer.That said I woujdn`t air my complaints "publically"online,though I would take it up with the person that I ordered the mat from directly. L.OK. I'm opening an alternative cans of worms now.
I had another look at the full frame picture just to see if the v-groove glitches were noticeable when veiwed as a whole. They aren't really.
But....
Take a look at the top margin on the inner mat. Even accounting for the bevel on the top mat being in shadow, it looks too wide to me.
Or are my eyes going funny?
Yes it most likely is an optical illusion. But I think it illustrates a point very pertinent to this whole topic. That is, while I was looking for for flaws in the grooves I didn't notice the inner border of the mat. Now I have seen it, it sticks out like a sore thumb.
It's the hairy gorrilla test all over again.
I once framed a small etching and I was very pleased with the result. In fact I hung it on the wall until the customer came to collect it. He was pleased with the overall design, but though it looked crooked. I took another look and had to admit he was right. I put a ruler on the mat borders. They were all parallel to the frame.
Turned out it was the plate mark on the etching that wasn't square. Only about a millimeter off, but being only about 4x2", enough to throw the whole thing off kilter. I recut the mat so the the window followed the bottom edge of the plate mark, not the frame. Looked fine then. Strange thing was, it had been hanging on my gallery wall about 10 days and I never noticed the anomaly.
It's the hairy gorrilla test all over again.
I once framed a small etching and I was very pleased with the result. In fact I hung it on the wall until the customer came to collect it. He was pleased with the overall design, but though it looked crooked. I took another look and had to admit he was right. I put a ruler on the mat borders. They were all parallel to the frame.
Turned out it was the plate mark on the etching that wasn't square. Only about a millimeter off, but being only about 4x2", enough to throw the whole thing off kilter. I recut the mat so the the window followed the bottom edge of the plate mark, not the frame. Looked fine then. Strange thing was, it had been hanging on my gallery wall about 10 days and I never noticed the anomaly.
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
OK soooooo
Montacute mentioned that the framer was watching this thread.
Are you a grumbler or a lurker? We only see a posted photo, you saw the real thing. What are we missing? Who'd you send her to? I send good customers to a framer 25 miles away. He's good, but slow turn around, and quite talkative! I know my customer gets a good job done for them, and that they'll stay with me!Not so good customers, or customers I don't want to lose, but won't really miss, i send to a framer 8 miles out. PITAs go to KittyFaces, sorry Erin!
Montacute mentioned that the framer was watching this thread.
Are you a grumbler or a lurker? We only see a posted photo, you saw the real thing. What are we missing? Who'd you send her to? I send good customers to a framer 25 miles away. He's good, but slow turn around, and quite talkative! I know my customer gets a good job done for them, and that they'll stay with me!Not so good customers, or customers I don't want to lose, but won't really miss, i send to a framer 8 miles out. PITAs go to KittyFaces, sorry Erin!
Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
IMHO a double mat laid in a waterfall fabric wrap would have been much nicer and more conducive to the needle art.
That being said...... $80 for a 19x22 frame, rag mat, mount, & museum glass???
We'd be out of business in a week. I'm sorry Montecute, I have read this whole thread and my opinion is only my opinion and it hasn't wavered from the 20 post..... I would have fired you the second time you brought it back.
I'm picky about certain things, and extremely self critical, but I'm not Luddite nor as talented or able to work at her blinding speed. Your frame job the first time around would have cost my shop to lose money. The second time the fix would have been from my "customer is the customer", the third time... I would have given you your money and stitchery back and wished you all the luck in the world; because I'm in business, and that requires me to make a profit.
Good luck in your quest. And may I suggest patronizing the Big Box stores as they seem to have infinite resources and can afford to re-do things many times. And I make that recommendation in all sincerity.
That being said...... $80 for a 19x22 frame, rag mat, mount, & museum glass???
We'd be out of business in a week. I'm sorry Montecute, I have read this whole thread and my opinion is only my opinion and it hasn't wavered from the 20 post..... I would have fired you the second time you brought it back. I'm picky about certain things, and extremely self critical, but I'm not Luddite nor as talented or able to work at her blinding speed. Your frame job the first time around would have cost my shop to lose money. The second time the fix would have been from my "customer is the customer", the third time... I would have given you your money and stitchery back and wished you all the luck in the world; because I'm in business, and that requires me to make a profit.
Good luck in your quest. And may I suggest patronizing the Big Box stores as they seem to have infinite resources and can afford to re-do things many times. And I make that recommendation in all sincerity.
PaulSF
PFG, Picture Framing God
Baer, now I owe you two beers in Vegas!
Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Isn't that the same as a double rum & coke in a bucket no ice? 
I just knew you would like the fabric wrap part.
I just knew you would like the fabric wrap part.
surferbill
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Much ado, about nothing.
From the pixs, the v-grooves look fine to me.
I would have redone the mat once, and after that I would have refunded any deposit money, and sent the customer on to another framer.
Nothing in life, or in picture framing is perfect.
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
IMHO a double mat laid in a waterfall fabric wrap would have been much nicer and more conducive to the needle art.
That being said...... $80 for a 19x22 frame, rag mat, mount, & museum glass???
Baer, I think it was $80 for the matting, not the whole job. If I'm wrong and it was for the whole job then that Grumbler/Lurker framer needs to look at the pricing threads! Forego the CMC and get a POS!
Montacute
Grumbler
I was going to just never post on this thread again, but here I go one last time to clear up some misconceptions.
First, this thread is obviously a debate. Therefore, reasonable minds can differ on the issue. I always believe free discourse is a good thing.
Second, I am a bit dismayed at some of the personal attacks. I would never resort to personal attacks and wish others would not. I don't have any major personal problems. I am not lying about anything.
Third, there seems to be paranoia that I have ulterior motives of opening my own frame shop. Never, ever, ever, in this life or any other would I do that. I work in academia and like it. I took a framing class on a hobby basis. I also took a stained glass class and have no intentions of opening a stained glass business.
Fourth, no, the whole job did not cost $80!! the $80 refund was for the cost of the two rag mats and the two vee-grooves ONLY. Also, my picture was at 1X magnification on my camera.
Fifth, I never, ever would have identified the framer. That would have been rude. I viewed this as presenting an anonymous case study to professionals for the purpose of feedback. This is how it is done in academia.
I have tried not to be offensive and have eagerly read all your opinions. Some of the technical stuff was over my head, but I appreciated the replies very much. Some of you have been extremely nice to me and I thank you. I hope I will be welcome to post on other topics in the future (always as a non-professional).
Last, I respectfully submit this thread with a beautiful mat picture I found on the forum. Seems pretty perfect to me and a lot tougher than a vee-groove:
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=35312&highlight=wizard
I wish you all the best.
First, this thread is obviously a debate. Therefore, reasonable minds can differ on the issue. I always believe free discourse is a good thing.
Second, I am a bit dismayed at some of the personal attacks. I would never resort to personal attacks and wish others would not. I don't have any major personal problems. I am not lying about anything.
Third, there seems to be paranoia that I have ulterior motives of opening my own frame shop. Never, ever, ever, in this life or any other would I do that. I work in academia and like it. I took a framing class on a hobby basis. I also took a stained glass class and have no intentions of opening a stained glass business.
Fourth, no, the whole job did not cost $80!! the $80 refund was for the cost of the two rag mats and the two vee-grooves ONLY. Also, my picture was at 1X magnification on my camera.
Fifth, I never, ever would have identified the framer. That would have been rude. I viewed this as presenting an anonymous case study to professionals for the purpose of feedback. This is how it is done in academia.
I have tried not to be offensive and have eagerly read all your opinions. Some of the technical stuff was over my head, but I appreciated the replies very much. Some of you have been extremely nice to me and I thank you. I hope I will be welcome to post on other topics in the future (always as a non-professional).
Last, I respectfully submit this thread with a beautiful mat picture I found on the forum. Seems pretty perfect to me and a lot tougher than a vee-groove:
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=35312&highlight=wizard
I wish you all the best.
If I may suggest where the irratation lies
IMHO we as Framers probably seem defensively Bias to this overly exact desireing CONSUMMER?.
With that in mind I would like to suggest that the real problem may just be a SEMANTICS problem along with a lack of reality.
Main Entry: 1per·fect
Pronunciation: \ˈpər-fikt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English parfit, from Anglo-French, from Latin perfectus, from past participle of perficere to carry out, perfect, from per- thoroughly + facere to make, do — more at do
Date: 14th century
1 a: being entirely without fault or defect : flawless <a perfect diamond> b: satisfying all requirements : accurate c: corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept <a perfect gentleman> d: faithfully reproducing the original ; specifically : letter-perfect e: legally valid
2: expert , proficient <practice makes perfect>
3 a: pure , total b: lacking in no essential detail : complete cobsolete : sane d: absolute , unequivocal <enjoys perfect happiness> e: of an extreme kind : unmitigated <a perfect brat> <an act of perfect foolishness>
4obsolete : mature
5: of, relating to, or constituting a verb form or verbal that expresses an action or state completed at the time of speaking or at a time spoken of
6obsolete a: certain , sure b: contented , satisfied
7of a musical interval : belonging to the consonances unison, fourth, fifth, and octave which retain their character when inverted and when raised or lowered by a half step become augmented or diminished
8 a: sexually mature and fully differentiated <a perfect insect> b: having both stamens and pistils in the same flower <a perfect flower>
— per·fect·ness \-fik(t)-nəs\ noun
synonyms perfect , whole , entire , intact mean not lacking or faulty in any particular. perfect implies the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state <a perfect set of teeth>. whole suggests a completeness or perfection that can be sought, gained, or regained <felt like a whole person again after vacation>. entire implies perfection deriving from integrity, soundness, or completeness of a thing <the entire Beethoven corpus>. intact implies retention of perfection of a thing in its natural or original state <the boat survived the storm intact>.
If we apply the #1 definitions ( a,b)-a: being entirely without fault or defect : flawless <a perfect diamond> b: satisfying all requirements It should easily be visible to say that NOTHING can be at fault in any way by anyone. This attribute from everything I have ever been taught is applicable only to GOD and no mere Mortal or thier jand crafts.
IF however we move on to (c) we see; corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept <a perfect gentleman> d: faithfully reproducing the original ; specifically : letter-perfect e: legally valid
And IMO thatcould easily imply that perfection can and should constitute what is the "IDEAL STANDARD" and when last I checked standards are determined by recognized experts in a given field ( Framers in this case) and as such I further suggest that it is entirely possible and highly probable that those who seek haveing this work done but never attempt to actually do it on a dily basis under production standards willbe the least qualified to detrmine what is "IDEAL"
But it should further be noted that many who have had such experienec and for some unkown reason see fit to denegrate the efforts of others while bragging on their own with out substaniateing their REPEATED PERFECTION are just as quilty as the uniformed craft person who only achieves what they are satisfied with after numereus attempts and changes while possible missing things like OVER CUTS at setting STANDARDS that even they can't GUARATEE on ever try and especilaly under PRODUCTION demands with out incurring no profits and possibly
Negative incomes.
To a Hobbiest the number of retries and STANDARDS that seem satisfactory while being cost efficent are no where similar to a PROFESSIONAL who does their best with the best materials and equipment available for a resonable price.
And when those STANDARDS aren't satisfactory to any consumer they can always do it them selves and do it again and again and again till they are satisfied or run out of budget.
BUDDY
PS I am frankly amazed and puzzled that with a FRAMER supposedly being here ONTFG we have never heard from them nor had their name used. Does this strike any one else as curius?
IMHO we as Framers probably seem defensively Bias to this overly exact desireing CONSUMMER?.
With that in mind I would like to suggest that the real problem may just be a SEMANTICS problem along with a lack of reality.
Main Entry: 1per·fect
Pronunciation: \ˈpər-fikt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English parfit, from Anglo-French, from Latin perfectus, from past participle of perficere to carry out, perfect, from per- thoroughly + facere to make, do — more at do
Date: 14th century
1 a: being entirely without fault or defect : flawless <a perfect diamond> b: satisfying all requirements : accurate c: corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept <a perfect gentleman> d: faithfully reproducing the original ; specifically : letter-perfect e: legally valid
2: expert , proficient <practice makes perfect>
3 a: pure , total b: lacking in no essential detail : complete cobsolete : sane d: absolute , unequivocal <enjoys perfect happiness> e: of an extreme kind : unmitigated <a perfect brat> <an act of perfect foolishness>
4obsolete : mature
5: of, relating to, or constituting a verb form or verbal that expresses an action or state completed at the time of speaking or at a time spoken of
6obsolete a: certain , sure b: contented , satisfied
7of a musical interval : belonging to the consonances unison, fourth, fifth, and octave which retain their character when inverted and when raised or lowered by a half step become augmented or diminished
8 a: sexually mature and fully differentiated <a perfect insect> b: having both stamens and pistils in the same flower <a perfect flower>
— per·fect·ness \-fik(t)-nəs\ noun
synonyms perfect , whole , entire , intact mean not lacking or faulty in any particular. perfect implies the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state <a perfect set of teeth>. whole suggests a completeness or perfection that can be sought, gained, or regained <felt like a whole person again after vacation>. entire implies perfection deriving from integrity, soundness, or completeness of a thing <the entire Beethoven corpus>. intact implies retention of perfection of a thing in its natural or original state <the boat survived the storm intact>.
If we apply the #1 definitions ( a,b)-a: being entirely without fault or defect : flawless <a perfect diamond> b: satisfying all requirements It should easily be visible to say that NOTHING can be at fault in any way by anyone. This attribute from everything I have ever been taught is applicable only to GOD and no mere Mortal or thier jand crafts.
IF however we move on to (c) we see; corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept <a perfect gentleman> d: faithfully reproducing the original ; specifically : letter-perfect e: legally valid
And IMO thatcould easily imply that perfection can and should constitute what is the "IDEAL STANDARD" and when last I checked standards are determined by recognized experts in a given field ( Framers in this case) and as such I further suggest that it is entirely possible and highly probable that those who seek haveing this work done but never attempt to actually do it on a dily basis under production standards willbe the least qualified to detrmine what is "IDEAL"
But it should further be noted that many who have had such experienec and for some unkown reason see fit to denegrate the efforts of others while bragging on their own with out substaniateing their REPEATED PERFECTION are just as quilty as the uniformed craft person who only achieves what they are satisfied with after numereus attempts and changes while possible missing things like OVER CUTS at setting STANDARDS that even they can't GUARATEE on ever try and especilaly under PRODUCTION demands with out incurring no profits and possibly
Negative incomes.
To a Hobbiest the number of retries and STANDARDS that seem satisfactory while being cost efficent are no where similar to a PROFESSIONAL who does their best with the best materials and equipment available for a resonable price.
And when those STANDARDS aren't satisfactory to any consumer they can always do it them selves and do it again and again and again till they are satisfied or run out of budget.
BUDDY
PS I am frankly amazed and puzzled that with a FRAMER supposedly being here ONTFG we have never heard from them nor had their name used. Does this strike any one else as curius?
BUDDY
PS I am frankly amazed and puzzled that with a FRAMER supposedly being here ONTFG we have never heard from them nor had their name used. Does this strike any one else as curius?[/QUOTE]
She has a thread posted entitled Thanks.
I think THIS thread needs to die die die. You all might want to welcome her, her posted name is Vasilka.
PS I am frankly amazed and puzzled that with a FRAMER supposedly being here ONTFG we have never heard from them nor had their name used. Does this strike any one else as curius?[/QUOTE]
She has a thread posted entitled Thanks.
I think THIS thread needs to die die die. You all might want to welcome her, her posted name is Vasilka.
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
For those of you asking about her, the framer came out and posted in this thread yesterday. Very nicely I might add.............
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=35524http://http://www.thegrmble.com/showthread.php?t=35524
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=35524http://http://www.thegrmble.com/showthread.php?t=35524
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
Rats, Dave, you beat me to it.................
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Wow, glad to know that her framer came on to the grumble. But after reading the other thread I have to say that there are 126 posts on this thread and none of us actually said Welcome to the Grumble to Montacute! Everyone slapped Vaskla on the back, said welcome to her and noone here did that for the consumer in our midst.
Me included. So MontaCute welcome, and yes do feel free to post again. We are very good about offering constructive criticism and help, for the first 30-60 posts. Then we go down hill. We are prone to distractions, and "oh look a shiney".... object has been known to distract us in other threads! I'm actually pretty impressed we stayed on target for 126 posts!
Me included. So MontaCute welcome, and yes do feel free to post again. We are very good about offering constructive criticism and help, for the first 30-60 posts. Then we go down hill. We are prone to distractions, and "oh look a shiney".... object has been known to distract us in other threads! I'm actually pretty impressed we stayed on target for 126 posts!
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Lois,
You have been nothing but kind, considerate and caring in your concern for the framer that you genuinely liked.
I had the pleasure of some side conversation with you and I was surprised at the level of education you attempted and did gain from your endeavor.
THESE PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE DISCUSSING.
They are jumping to conclusions about you as a consumer. It has become mob mentality in defending a framer when you were not attacking anybody.
Now in defense of the framers, they are used to professional framers being here and felt there was a crossing of a line. That is not the case, you will always be welcomed here.
I hope some day that you get to the beach and just say hi. I'm not trying to get framing business, just think you are a nice and interesting lady.
You have been nothing but kind, considerate and caring in your concern for the framer that you genuinely liked.
I had the pleasure of some side conversation with you and I was surprised at the level of education you attempted and did gain from your endeavor.
THESE PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE DISCUSSING.
They are jumping to conclusions about you as a consumer. It has become mob mentality in defending a framer when you were not attacking anybody.
Now in defense of the framers, they are used to professional framers being here and felt there was a crossing of a line. That is not the case, you will always be welcomed here.
I hope some day that you get to the beach and just say hi. I'm not trying to get framing business, just think you are a nice and interesting lady.
check pages 8 and 9 for welcomes
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Not there yet, oh wait, I am showing 40 posts per page Page 8 would be around 320 for my screen! What number posts started to say welcome? I was just trying to point out that the framer got welcomes starting at post #1. 80 posts in and we finally say hi, well if a customer walked in my door and it to 80-90 minutes before I welcomed them, they'd probably not come back!
But seriously, thank you for pointing out to me that I missed the welcomes.
Hey be nice!.....I just answered the question as I saw fit,the job was not to the customer`s liking....Don`t really matter what we think.Also just answering Prospero(note -I said most likely a camera "artefact"). BTW,don`t ask me..I do my own stuff,and the buck stops there! I`m wwwwaaayyy too anal to be able to turn a good profit out there in the public.I admit it.IMHO a double mat laid in a waterfall fabric wrap would have been much nicer and more conducive to the needle art.
That being said...... $80 for a 19x22 frame, rag mat, mount, & museum glass???
I'm picky about certain things, and extremely self critical, but I'm not Luddite nor as talented or able to work at her blinding speed. Your frame job the first time around would have cost my shop to lose money. The second time the fix would have been from my "customer is the customer", the third time... I would have given you your money and stitchery back and wished you all the luck in the world; because I'm in business, and that requires me to make a profit.
Good luck in your quest. And may I suggest patronizing the Big Box stores as they seem to have infinite resources and can afford to re-do things many times. And I make that recommendation in all sincerity.
L.(1,the fabric would look better...2,I will accept the fast part.....)
Try again. (good ere init?)
bugger.:bdh:
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Hey I think you made it! oops, sorry
MabSadie2
PFG, Picture Framing God
Sorry Prospero, but I can't indulge your wish to end the thread just yet. And may I say that your v-grooves are beyond admirable. And stylish, too, which is something I don't consider your average closed v-groove to be.
Montacute, you said that you started this thread because you wanted some opinions but you didn't want your framer to resent you. This thread now has over four thousand viewings. I don't think the Grumble is a good place for customers to post and discuss a framer's work if you wish to remain anonymous. Here's a surprise. Picture framers read the Grumble. A framer who maybe just had an unhappy customer with regards to a v-groove is more than a little likely to open and read a thread called "are perfect v-grooves possible."
As a consumer, you have the right to have work done to whatever standard you wish. I think the right framer for you is a veteran of the industry, who runs a small shop and is likely the only framer. This person cuts v-grooves by hand and has for years and years. It is in many ways a dying art. The CMC has replaced a lot of the skill needed for this type of work but a CMC will not guarantee you a perfect mat. A CMC is only as good as the framer testing and calibrating it. It's a complicated piece of equipment that is fiddled with or not fiddled with to whatever standard the shop requires. This v-groove you posted is good enough for retail.
While I appreciate that you have sought out education, please remember that reading a hundred posts about v-grooves won't make you an expert and it doesn't make your framer bad. I submit to you that you need to learn to cut your own mats. Buy a fletcher or a mat cutter on a track, Bogframe's book on v-grooves, and invest about eighty hours of learning how to cut v-grooves so that you are always in control of your product. Or find a framer like I mentioned above.
There are two things no framer wants to hear, "I've been taking classes," and "my friend used to work at a frame shop and she said__________" If you had too many stitcheries to do before x-mas, would you hire out the labor and be surprised and/or disappointed that it wasn't the job that YOU would do? As a customer you have the right to demand any level of quality, but I would draw the line at posting grievances with a framer for any other framer to pick apart in public, which is what the Grumble is, very public. That's passive aggressive and it's why you got personal attacks.
I don't think that v-groove is bad. You do, and the right thing to do in my opinion is to remove the label and take it to some other framers in your area and discuss it with them, or solicit advice publicly and carry on a private conversation with a qualified responder over Private Message. You've made some friends through this thread who would be happy to help you find the right product. Please for sake of everyone of us who is running a business, don't use your classroom education to torment people in the field. That's not an attack, that's just me being blunt. Most of us to an overwhelming degree learned our trade by framing pictures and moved on to classes in advanced techniques much later. A new framer in my shop has framed forty pictures (supervised) in a week. You can't get that kind of experience without digging your hands in.
I think your framer would have been sad that she couldn't make you happy and have been willing to return your money, but now she's had her work picked apart publicly, viewed probably 3000 times and there's little hope for no resentment now. The thing that bothers me most about this thread is how quickly some of us jumped to throw this framer under the bus. We're the framer's colleagues, remember, we should all have some sympathy for her, not thanking somebody for being picky. Anybody can be picky.
Another thing about framers is that galleries and museums are ruined for us. Most of us can't even see art anymore without taking a good long look at the framing and finding all the flaws that the public can't even see. So asking a bunch of framers if "x" is acceptable will get you varied answers. Picking apart other framers work is what we do. It's part of growing. Everyone always thinks they can do better, like actors
Montacute, I extend to you a most sincere welcome to the Grumble. I hope that you continue your education and may I say that your stitchery is very, very pretty. I bet the back is as perfect as the front. I always admire the needlework customers that come in with perfect backs.
Montacute, you said that you started this thread because you wanted some opinions but you didn't want your framer to resent you. This thread now has over four thousand viewings. I don't think the Grumble is a good place for customers to post and discuss a framer's work if you wish to remain anonymous. Here's a surprise. Picture framers read the Grumble. A framer who maybe just had an unhappy customer with regards to a v-groove is more than a little likely to open and read a thread called "are perfect v-grooves possible."
As a consumer, you have the right to have work done to whatever standard you wish. I think the right framer for you is a veteran of the industry, who runs a small shop and is likely the only framer. This person cuts v-grooves by hand and has for years and years. It is in many ways a dying art. The CMC has replaced a lot of the skill needed for this type of work but a CMC will not guarantee you a perfect mat. A CMC is only as good as the framer testing and calibrating it. It's a complicated piece of equipment that is fiddled with or not fiddled with to whatever standard the shop requires. This v-groove you posted is good enough for retail.
While I appreciate that you have sought out education, please remember that reading a hundred posts about v-grooves won't make you an expert and it doesn't make your framer bad. I submit to you that you need to learn to cut your own mats. Buy a fletcher or a mat cutter on a track, Bogframe's book on v-grooves, and invest about eighty hours of learning how to cut v-grooves so that you are always in control of your product. Or find a framer like I mentioned above.
There are two things no framer wants to hear, "I've been taking classes," and "my friend used to work at a frame shop and she said__________" If you had too many stitcheries to do before x-mas, would you hire out the labor and be surprised and/or disappointed that it wasn't the job that YOU would do? As a customer you have the right to demand any level of quality, but I would draw the line at posting grievances with a framer for any other framer to pick apart in public, which is what the Grumble is, very public. That's passive aggressive and it's why you got personal attacks.
I don't think that v-groove is bad. You do, and the right thing to do in my opinion is to remove the label and take it to some other framers in your area and discuss it with them, or solicit advice publicly and carry on a private conversation with a qualified responder over Private Message. You've made some friends through this thread who would be happy to help you find the right product. Please for sake of everyone of us who is running a business, don't use your classroom education to torment people in the field. That's not an attack, that's just me being blunt. Most of us to an overwhelming degree learned our trade by framing pictures and moved on to classes in advanced techniques much later. A new framer in my shop has framed forty pictures (supervised) in a week. You can't get that kind of experience without digging your hands in.
I think your framer would have been sad that she couldn't make you happy and have been willing to return your money, but now she's had her work picked apart publicly, viewed probably 3000 times and there's little hope for no resentment now. The thing that bothers me most about this thread is how quickly some of us jumped to throw this framer under the bus. We're the framer's colleagues, remember, we should all have some sympathy for her, not thanking somebody for being picky. Anybody can be picky.
Another thing about framers is that galleries and museums are ruined for us. Most of us can't even see art anymore without taking a good long look at the framing and finding all the flaws that the public can't even see. So asking a bunch of framers if "x" is acceptable will get you varied answers. Picking apart other framers work is what we do. It's part of growing. Everyone always thinks they can do better, like actors
Montacute, I extend to you a most sincere welcome to the Grumble. I hope that you continue your education and may I say that your stitchery is very, very pretty. I bet the back is as perfect as the front. I always admire the needlework customers that come in with perfect backs.
Tag,Your turn Prospero! L.
I've seen scenarios such as this on other forums stretch out to 100's of pages.
So in the interests of sanity I will do the noble thing and surrender.
I bet no-one will follow this post now I have said that.
Make me look a complete git why don'tya?
So in the interests of sanity I will do the noble thing and surrender.
I bet no-one will follow this post now I have said that.
Make me look a complete git why don'tya?
franken thread....
does anyone have change for a hundred? Thats all everyone seems to bring in the last 3 days. Oh well. atleast no credit card fee's....
I'm post #142.....nanananana...
does anyone have change for a hundred? Thats all everyone seems to bring in the last 3 days. Oh well. atleast no credit card fee's....
I'm post #142.....nanananana...
Oh, man.....pleeeezzzz? 
This is my last word on the subject. Peace be to all. :smiley:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMNgfiJ_WeAmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMNgfiJ_WeAmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Pat Murphey
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Bump!
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Shayla ...you are too funny! I've not only got that song in my head now I've been hitting replay for the last hour.
Makes me want to go cut some v-grooves...
Makes me want to go cut some v-grooves...
Psst... I hate v grooves.......
surferbill
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
For some reason, after reading these posts, I'm humming the Simon & Garfunkel cover song "feelin' groovy".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdRTI7FYqUc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdRTI7FYqUc
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I'm hearing James Brown, "Big pay back" playing in my head right now. Don't see the v-groove connection, but it must be there!
imaluma
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I agree with this.
Edited to add...
Sorry I missed the frankenthread.
I have been adding hot cocoa mix to my coffee.
- Status