Wood frame alternatives

Create a Post
S

Sherry Lee

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
Posts
2,228
Loc
Phoenix, Az.
The majority of us have a percentage of customers that really can't afford the nice wood frames - or don't care to put out that kind of money. And they don't want metals.

Poly/plastic frames are currently being discussed in its own thread. Some seem to like the alternative, others won't have it in their shops.

What's left? The laminates such as Framerica? - are there others?

I need to have frames for the "starving artists" - it's only right, but I certainly don't want them bringing back frames that have fallen apart either.
 
Sherry

Can you be more specific as to a price point(retail) that you are looking for these "starving artists" frames? Also, how wide a moulding?

Sometimes even if the materials are free... the labor and overhead costs to product a frame are more than an artist is willing to spend.
 
Sherry-There re so many option out there; some of which we use successfully

Framerica has a great, moderately priced program

Polys offer a great price alternative

But, bet the farm, any product that represents an aggressive alternative to mainstream merchandising (RE: If it's cheaper than what I want to sell, it must be crap)

Quit listening to the critic and be your own judge

You know my shops, you andDan have been in them. We don't sell crap

Framerica and polys represent less than 10% of our wall offerings, but they fill a wonderful need to an increasingly larger segment of who walks into our doors, anyway

I will only give you my opinion:

You don't need any specialized ventilation sysytem

The glues haven't been banned by DEQ or anyone else that I know about

We use the exact same blades for everything we cut

We don't have any specialized joining equipment for any of the alternative mouldings

We don't have corners falling apart

I'm not picking on th eposter that indicated that she has many, many of these frames brought in because they have fallen apart. I realize that we don't see as many customers daily as most grumblers in our small shops and that must be why we rarely see this type of frame brought in for repair. If I had to guess in the last 6 months, that number might be between one and zero

We have replaced numerous lites of glass and a few wooden frames that were older than the Ark that had corners separate

Bottom line: Buy some, try them and make up your own mind. You may need a little learning curve on how much glue and what setting on the vnailer, normal stuff

Most critic seem to be hellbent on making sure YOU don't use it, instead of themselves
 
Personally, I would rather do a poly frame than a Framerica. I agree with Bob Carter on the use of polys. I have several artists who love to have their works done in poly..reasons other than cost, the frames are lightweight for shipping and they don't get "dinged" as bad as wood. I can put different finishes on polys to give them a true "custom" look. Some of my "regulars" are now looking at the polys as when looking for the champagne look on a budlight budget. Do what works for you and your customers.
 
JFeig said:
Sometimes even if the materials are free... the labor and overhead costs to product a frame are more than an artist is willing to spend.
Click to expand...

A very good point that I think is often overlooked. In the aforementioned thread about polys a very well known businessman said that his average COGS for last month was just under 18%. So, with free materials he could give an average of 18% off and still make his normal gross profit.
 
In don't know where the thread is discussing poly mlgd, but I think a moment needs to be tossed in that separates Framica from poly.

I don't buy much from them (Framica, or Framerica as they think their new name is), but when I do, it is not based on price, but rather design.

Unless it's some special promotion for a new line, or some other reason, their mldg price can be compared to Studio, Universal etc . . . (for apple to apple mldgs).

At least on the level that I buy.

But that's not the issue.

Let's say that your 'low end' idea is Framica or Poly.

Framica is sourced, manufactured and packaged domestically.

Ding Ding Ding.

All things being equal, I know where I will spend my dollars.

Now let's go another angle.

Eco, Green, Earth friendly or whatever the #### you want to call it.

Ding Ding Ding.

The winner.

To be able to market a product from our industry that uses material that would otherwise be waste to any other mldg manufacturer.

Customers eat that up.

I will have a customer go for the Framica. They will gladly be willing to pay the same or more than if they went with the other product.

They not only went green. But it cost less, not more like any other green product being marketed. And it is Domestic from start to finish.

Two ways of looking it at it:
The low end is where you ### is. And if you want to shoot yourself in it, then go right ahead.
OR
The low end is where and what you say it is. It is you telling the customer their low end will get reamed with inferior product elsewhere. Your low end will kick the ### of of any other low end for what you offer. And your low end is high class.
 
From time to time I get Poly frames in from customers that have come apart they bought somewhere else, and I just tell them It cannot be put back together. Also, I get Framica frames back that have come apart, and/or have delaminated, especially the narrow frames on bigger posters. Some of them are from my own shop that we framed 10-15 years ago.

I'm sure that the quality has gotten better on both
Framica and poly, so I will give them a try again, but I'm still attached to real wood mouldings.
 
surferbill said:
From time to time I get Poly frames in from customers that have come apart...Also, I get Framica frames back that have come apart...
Click to expand...

Preferences aside, when miters come apart, the moulding material is not the problem. The method of joining them is the problem.

No matter what the moulding material -- be it wood, MDF, pressed paper, or plastic, there are ways to join the corners so they will not come apart without considerable provocation.
 
No matter what you sell, it is a flat out guarantee that there will be a whole lot of folks who think it is way to expensive. I promise you that if you could get all the materials for free, and just charged ten dollars an hour labor, someone would feel that your a rip off artist.

Think about that, ten dollars an hour, times forty. Do you honestly think that would earn you a living? Would it pay your rent, taxes, car expenses, a really cheap apartment, food, and whatever else it is that keeps you going? Not hardly.

How about if you double that labor charge, would that work for you? Nope, it wouldn't.

To barely eke out a living and pay your shop expenses, you would need around seventy or eighty dollars an hour. How many people would think your way to expensive?

You are spinning your wheels, trying real hard to accomplish nothing. Even with free materials, you could not make all the bottom scrapers happy, at least not if you want to live above the poverty level, and work your butt off doing it.

If you are #### bent on working cheap, why not pick crops on a farm? The hours will be less, exercise will be better for you, except for your back, and the money will be about the same.

Face it, you are in the business of selling a luxury item, no matter what you do, not everyone can afford your services. Put your efforts into improving your product, you will last a lot longer and live at least, a normal life.

John
 
John,
If you are economically opposed to poly moulding I can give you figures that justify its use. In spades.
If you are ethically or morally opposed to poly mouldings...well, I can't help you there.
 
The issue is not Polly or wood mouldings, the issue, it sounds to me, is trying to satisfy the lower end of the market place. Myself, I do not use Polly or plastic laminated mouldings. I have found that I prefer working with wood mouldings, it makes me happy. I like the way it feels, smells when you cut it, and I like the look. As someone else, on The Grumble once said, I like to keep the boss happy.

If you get the same enjoyment out of working with plastics, that is fine. If you work with plastics because you can sell them cheaper, I would not want to trade places with you.

There are plenty of ways to sell a cheap product, and a lot of folks do just that. The challenge, to me, is to sell a quality product at a market value price. There are not so many folks doing that. The reason for that is, it's much harder to do.

However, IF you can establish your business based on quality, rather than price, your life will be a whole lot better. You will earn a whole lot more money, and as far as I am concerned, you will have earned it. That is without a doubt, the hardest way to build a business and a reputation.

Selling cheap may give you cash flow in the short term, and it is an easy way of acomplishing that, however, it does little to establish your shop with the upper end of the market.

It all boils down to...." Any idiot can give it away."

John
 
I also think it has to be said that attending trade shows and looking at entire lines to find "value" mouldings for an aggressive "low end" line is worth doing.

There are some "real wood" mouldings that are great quality and well priced, but you have to kiss a few frogs before you will find them.

I'll give you a jump start - we purchase a 1 1/2" beautiful coffee colored moulding from Omega and pay 82 cents per foot. We retail it for $9.50 (but have the margin to discount).

We buy some other beautiful wood toned mouldings from Design Guild that are fantastic.

We just purchased another from Universal that was fantastic and $1.14 per foot. Studio's product probably comes from the same factory and is almost half as much more expensive.

And I will admit that we have also had less than superior product from all of these vendors in the past as well.....but these are gems, great finishes and well priced.

At $1.14 per foot (delivered) you can sell the moulding at a 5 x mark up for $5.70 per foot. How much less expensive do you want to be?
 
We all know Rob: Wouldn't it be safe to assume that since he offers some great "price conscious" buys that he has some price conscious clients? Don't we all? By carrying these "price conscious" alternatives, does that indicate that he is now a low end framer?

I know for a fact that a couple of his clients are extremely wealthy-do you think they will quit patonizing his shop because he carries some low priced Omega? Ron, if Mr Sarver cuts you off, I'm pulling my Omega's

Or does it suggest that he has some part of his clientele that is "price" sensitive and has some product to satisfy that portion?

Why do we always put this argument in an "all or nothing" context?

Some of my customers do buy fantastic mldgs; a lot buy very nice middle of the road frames and some just want less expensive products.

I am certain that most framers make much money than I, but I couldn't make even the little I do if I gave up any segment.

Obviously many framers do make a very great living off high end alone
 
I've had some good success with Framerica with several of my price-conscious customers. I'm talking about Framerica's wood mouldings -- like the rustic pine mouldings -- as well as their bonanza wood (or the Lorne Greene collection, as I like to call it). These customers have come in with a budget that is a bit too small for the size of the artwork they want to frame, and the bonanza wood in particular has saved the sale. I can think of 13 or 14 frames that I was able to sell at or under my customer's budget limit, because I had those mouldings. It didn't hurt that the mouldings happened to look good on the artwork, either. The customers were happy, and when I saw the invoice for the mouldings, so was I. If I recall correctly from the comfort of my sofa, I think the cost of the moulding for a 40x50 frame in one case was under $20. My profit for that was quite nice, thank you.
 
PaulSF said:
the cost of the moulding for a 40x50 frame in one case was under $20
Click to expand...

Now you're hittin' me where I live!

You know what bugs me though? I wouldn't mind selling a frame like this to somebody who knows what he's getting and understands the enconomic tradeoffs. But at an art fair (let's not talk about galleries) I visualize this scene where a customer who has just laid down his money for a great picture in a cool looking frame gets his first glimpse of the Walmart-esque back of those mouldings. It couldn't be pretty, a let down at best. I would feel a moral compulsion to disclose what those frames were really all about prior to the sale, and that frankly would be where it stops for a lot of art buyers, even unsophisticated art fair ones.

The irony is, the lower end wood mouldings I use are covered with the same kind of veneer that's on those composite frames! It's the unseen substrate that makes the difference, somehow. Go figure. It would be simpler if there were no options, options always cause trouble.

Quick question about those composite frames...does underpinning make the joints weaker because of fracturing, the same way cheap composite furniture always breaks at the attachment points?
 
Bill, I'm a newbie, so my experience is far more limited than most around here. That being said, I've had no trouble at all with joining these bonanza wood frames. Indeed, the bonanza wood has cut and joined consistently well, although I am working with a fairly simple frame profile. I glue and underpin the same as if it was a Roma moulding. I also cover the back with a dustcover, cut flush to the edge of the frame, so no customer will see anything different when I show them the back. The only part I don't like is the process of putting on the wire and associated hardware -- predrilling the holes, etc. I'd much rather just jab that awl into the whateverwood, and then drill in the screws.

Oh, and someone referred to the smell of plastic vs. the smell of wood. I love the smell of plastic, especially when I swipe that plastic through my credit card machine. Oh my, that's a lovely smell.
 
It's late, I want to go to bed, however, I would like to make it clear that I do offer low end prices to those who need it. I have over 30,000' of moulding in stock, non of it is plastic or plastic laminate. Heck, I can, and will sell a frame for ten dollars and make money, and you can bet it will be a darn nice frame. I do not try to satisfy the low price demands of everyone who comes in my door. Even that ten dollar frame has been way beyond the budget of some of my lookers. I don't care who you are, it is impossible to please everyone.

We all want to sell to absolutely everyone who comes through our doors, and when I had the staff, I came darn close to doing just that. The problem was, even with my huge dollar volume, I was hardly earning a living.

When I opened my present location, I cut my staff from twelve to one. I try to push quality and I lean toward the clientèle who appreciates that kind of product. I think I am now earning a darn good living and I am happy with my lot in life.

I probably have customers in most price ranges, much like everyone else. The difference now is I am buying right and getting my margin, rather than cutting it like I was before. I have only carried a plastic laminate for a few years, the product was poor, the laminate lifted, I got rid of it. I hate having to replace frames.

Good night!

John
 
JRB said:
...We all want to sell to absolutely everyone who comes through our doors, and when I had the staff, I came darn close to doing just that. The problem was, even with my huge dollar volume, I was hardly earning a living...
Click to expand...

Amen.

Those two sentences might sum up the story of nearly all framers who have been in business more than 10 years. Couldn't have said it better.

JRB has obviously found his HappyPlace, his niche. But beyond that, he has found ways to make more money doing less work.

A lot of us are doing the same thing, one way or another. We're the survivors, finding our niches in our local markets and serving them as profitably as possible. We are buying better, selling better, and operating much more efficiently than we used to. Acronyms like POS and CMC have a lot to do with that, I think.

In John's upscale San Diego neighborhood, perhaps he really can operate most profitably with only wood mouldings. But in my neighborhood, it's different. Poly works very well in my market.



Just one observation, John. 30,000 feet seems like an awful lot of moulding inventory for a one-man shop. I'm guessing you've had that for a while and you're working it down as fast as you can, or maybe a semi-truck rolled over in front of your shop and dumped it on the sidewalk? Ah, yes. A framer's fantasy.:p

For one framer working 300 days a year, 30,000 feet of moulding represents about 4,000 typical frames at 7.5 feet each, building an average of 13 frames a day. If you sold only moulding from stock and didn't buy another inch, that's a year's supply!

Efficient operation normally calls for inventory turnover several times a year. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet you occasionally buy chops or small length orders, so you might be hard-pressed to turn over 30,000 feet of stock in 3 years, and 5 years would be a more reasonable expectation.

That kind of inventory commitment would scare the pudding out of me. Mine is not exactly a one man shop, but I like to keep my inventory under 1,000 feet and turn it over about once a month. Also, my average production is nowhere near 13 frames a day.

After all that 'ciphering, are you gonna tell me that was a typo, and you really meant to say 3,000 feet?
:faintthud:
 
Jim, let me ruin your day. You know that truck you where talking about? You came really close. A few months ago, a major supplier literally gave me, at absolutely no cost to me, thousand and thousands of feet of moulding. They needed the space and I got lucky. Quite a few shops in San Diego benefited from their largess. I had the space, so I think I was the luckiest. I also already had at least ten or fifteen thousand feet that I have accumulated over the years.

Bob is right, I also have a huge inventory of prints, probably into the thousands, dating back to the sixties in boxes up in my storage loft. When I go, there is going to be one great garage sale.

The sad part about all that free moulding is, I really needed it when I started my business years ago. It finally comes to me when I'm looking for a way out. Figures.

I have never been one to count the beans all that much. As long as all my bills get paid and I can stuff a dime or two into savings now and then, I honestly don't give a darn what my inventory turnover is.

John
 
JRB said:
...I have never been one to count the beans all that much. As long as all my bills get paid and I can stuff a dime or two into savings now and then, I honestly don't give a darn what my inventory turnover is. John
Click to expand...

There is some virtue in quantifying the beans, but I agree there's no need to get obsessed with it.

You don't need to give a darn about turnover when the inventory has no cost. Wait a minute...how does California assess taxes on inventory? I guess maybe taxes and the space occupied are your only costs, you lucky dog.
:cry:
 
Seems to me if you start the year with say, five thousand feet of moulding and you end the year with five thousand feet of moulding, you will probably pay the taxes on five thousand feet of moulding. If you turn it over once or ten times, you still end up with what you started with, unless of course, you don't re-order at inventory time. So you only inventory three thousand feet of moulding, which will probably be a duplicate of the previous years inventory.

I don't think it really matters where you live, you are still going to have to pay taxes, just something we can not get out of.

At least we can all take the satisfaction of knowing that not one dime of our tax dollars will be wasted, that it will all be carefully spent for our benefit and well being. God Bless our government employees. :)

John
 
Create a Post
Back
Top