Wire placement?

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ken

ken

True Grumbler
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Feb 25, 2009
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Winchester Ky.
I read in a framing book when I started to place wire on frame around 1/3 down and pull snug across the frame. This is what I have been doing but in a large frame 24" wide or larger frame it seems that this method appears to want to put unnecessary side pull on the frame. Just curious what methods others are doing? I guess the real question is do most of you pull the the wire snug or leave enough wire length to go up on frame? Thanks
 
I think you have it half right.

1/3rd down is how I do it, but snug..........no way.

Having the wire snug puts far more stress on the points where the wire is connected to the frame. A looser wire (some say up to a 60% angle), puts far less stress on the connection. I use a lessor angle, probably about 25-30 degrees on most frames.

The actual angle will depend on the frame. You aren't going to be able to do a 60% or even 30% degree angle on an 8x50" work.

And you can read the FACTS on this on the manuals page at : http://www.thepaperframer.com/manuals/Form399-hangingartwork.pdf
 
The wire needs slack in it. While many prefer to place it 1/3 down I always do it 2/3 up since that is the direction the piece is sitting at this point in the procedure.
 
1/3rd is good, snug is a no-no :) Time to get a newer book :) many frames come in for glass repair that have fallen off the walls, due to the screw eyes pulling out. The physics exerted on the screws is incredible the tighter the wire is.
 
Wire should not be tight. As you have experienced already, it places a lot of stress on the sides of the frame. It is also more difficult to hang a picture that has tight wire!

Jeff Rodier said:
The wire needs slack in it. While many prefer to place it 1/3 down I always do it 2/3 up since that is the direction the piece is sitting at this point in the procedure.
Click to expand...

On my workbench it's 1/3 down, Jeff.

I wonder if working upside down is a northern hemisphere thing??? ;o) ;o)
 
Here's an image from the FACTS standard I mentioned above. Note that the stress generated by a 10 pound frame when the hanging wire is snug (2 degrees ) is 143 pounds and when it is a more reasonable 30 degrees, it is only 10 pounds and even less at greater angles.

Snug = bad.
Loosey Goosey = good.

stress.jpg
 
I don't like turning a frame that is laying face down. Hardware is installed from the top since on large pieces they would need to be anyway so all pieces are done the same. The top of the finished piece is nearest me during the process so I hook the tape at the farthest edge which is the bottom the way I am working. My wife can only measure from the top down (it's a math thing for her).
 
I agree with the FACTS ma'am, but let me throw an argument out there that was posed by one of my employees some time ago (which I overcame by stating what our policy is). I've always wondered how much more stress having the wire tight puts on the piece versus the slack method. Are there any hard numbers out there? I mean, if the piece weighs 5lbs and the force of gravity in the places the art is being hung are the same, isn't that going to be the same weight pulling on the sides either way. How much less is there on the sides when the wire is slack since the wire is going to get taut at some point (just in your case at the end of a larger loop)? It's not like there is slack after it is hung. Please, detail it for me more so I can win this argument resoundingly rather than just play the boss card. Is this just another "the canvas needs to breath" thing potentially?

Just wondering aloud.
 
pwalters said:
I've always wondered how much more stress having the wire tight puts on the piece versus the slack method. Are there any hard numbers out there?
Click to expand...

The image in post #6 shows the stress for various angles (including tight) as does the FACTS.
 
I generally attach the wire 1/3 of the way down the frame and have the slack come halfway between there and the top of the frame.
:cool: Rick
 
pwalters said:
...I've always wondered how much more stress having the wire tight puts on the piece versus the slack method. Are there any hard numbers out there?
Click to expand...
The FACTS drawing in post #6 shows the differences of stress according to angles of the wire. Of course it is tempting to challenge disagreeable data. In the interest of getting it right, a call to your local university might get you in touch with a physics professor who can explain how the wire's angles affect stress.
 
In my shop we have two solutions:

1. About 90% of our frames have a two-point hanging system and no wire.

2. When a wire is mandatory, we make it slack enough to use two wall hooks and have the wire nearly vertical as it leaves the frame, or at least a 60-degree angle.
 
Jim Miller said:
The FACTS drawing in post #6 shows the differences of stress according to angles of the wire. Of course it is tempting to challenge disagreeable data. In the interest of getting it right, a call to your local university might get you in touch with a physics professor who can explain how the wire's angles affect stress.
Click to expand...

Don't even need to go that far. The formula is right there on the drawing: Force = 1/2(Weight) divided by the sine of the angle. It's math, it's physics, it's easy. It's not a matter of opinion, it's the same regardless of shop policy, how you were taught to do it, what language you speak or where you live.
 
You could possibly look at using framing cord that you can get from your framing supplier, as well as consider using D-rings instead of screw eyes. I have no facts to justify it, but I would guess that it distrubutes the strain better and won't rip out as easily. I also think it looks more professional.

Cheers

Michele
 
If the size of the moulding is thin (too thin for the given size) and liable to flex when using a wire, why not simply circumvent the issue by reinforcing (e.g. with a strainer) and/or by using an alternative hanging mechanism (e.g. cleat system, WallBuddies, etc.).
 
Larry Peterson said:
The image in post #6 shows the stress for various angles (including tight) as does the FACTS.
Click to expand...

Perfect, the diagram is what I was looking for since when I started talking physics their eyes glazed over. Thanks Larry.
 
kuluchicken said:
You could possibly look at using framing cord that you can get from your framing supplier, as well as consider using D-rings instead of screw eyes. I have no facts to justify it, but I would guess that it distrubutes the strain better and won't rip out as easily. I also think it looks more professional.

Cheers

Michele
Click to expand...


Yup, it does. I don't remember any of the details, but long ago I took a course on Engineering Statics and Dynamics which deals with, among other things, stress vectors and calculating such.

The stress on the hanger and frame will be the same regardless of which kind of anchor is used. The key is that some things will distribute the stress better than others. Screw eyes are probably the worst. Using a D-Ring rather than a screw eye reduces the lateral stress (you can pull a screw eye horizontally out of a frame - which is a lot harder with a D-Ring since the base of the d-ring distributes the stress better)

Also having multiple anchors (2 or 3 screw D-Rings) will also distribute the stress better.

But the bottom line to all of this, is that regardless of what kind of system you use with a hinging wire, a tight wire (or cord) is not good.
 
re

Hey a great big thanks for all the quick repsonses. Your response answers what I expected. I definitley will be changing my method. Not sure what book I read that from but if I find it I will toss it. LOL
 
Aside from some slack in the wire I've taken to fastening mine closer to 1/4 of the way down for some years now.(or even 3/4 up from the bottom.) Seems to me this reduces the stress on the side rails even more. Am I wrong on this?
 
FramerDave said:
Don't even need to go that far. The formula is right there on the drawing: Force = 1/2(Weight) divided by the sine of the angle. It's math, it's physics, it's easy. It's not a matter of opinion, it's the same regardless of shop policy, how you were taught to do it, what language you speak or where you live.
Click to expand...

It's even the same down here in the Southern hemisphere! ;);)



IMO screw eyes are the devils work and nothing could persuade me to use them. There is extra stress on them because of the leverage of the eye protruding out.

Cord has the disadvantage of stretching so the poor customer/person who hangs the frame whacks his hooks into the wall, hangs the frame and it ends up lower than he wants, because of the stretch in the cord! I wouldn't be at all surprised if it continues to stretch long after the frame is hanging on it.

It's two point hanging systems or SuperSoftStrand wire for me! :thumbsup:
 
I am not enough of a math genius to argue about tension on the wire!
My reasoning for leaving slack in the wire is so that the frame doesn't need to constantly be straightened every time a door is slammed or the glass is dusted!
Between slack in the wire and some bumpons, I like my pictures staying where they are supposed to be.
This is also much easier to tell a customer than the math part!
 
About the wire??

We use wire rated at twice the weight of the frame using the WAG system.

Should we be using wire rated at twice the force on the hanger?

Doug
 
Terry Hart cpf said:
Aside from some slack in the wire I've taken to fastening mine closer to 1/4 of the way down for some years now.(or even 3/4 up from the bottom.) Seems to me this reduces the stress on the side rails even more. Am I wrong on this?
Click to expand...

The stress would be the same, Terry, but there would be less chance of bowing the moulding.

I usually go a bit less than a third from the top and considerably higher on long verticals. The lower you place your wire anchors in the moulding and the greater the angle of the wire (slackness) the more the piece will lean out from the wall.
 
Dave said:
The stress would be the same, Terry, but there would be less chance of bowing the moulding.

I usually go a bit less than a third from the top and considerably higher on long verticals. The lower you place your wire anchors in the moulding and the greater the angle of the wire (slackness) the more the piece will lean out from the wall.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I meant by stress on the side rails, bowing, twisting. If you place the wire higher, regardless of the "slackness" wouldn't it tend to hang closer to the wall? Seems logical to me, what with gravity & all, but I've never scientifically tested this theory. I did have a customer once insist the wires be put nearly at the mid point because they said it would hang closer to the wall. I seriously doubt that worked out but they never brought the pictures back to have the wires moved back up either.


Fascinating topic by the way. Picture framers are wild.
 
I must admit that I personally prefer strap hangers for slightly larger items, because they hang flushly against the wall. I found that customers never liked them because they found it difficult to hang the pictures straight.

Others thoughts and preferences would be appreciated, since we are talking about hanging mechanisms :)
 
You can get hangers and wall hooks that have a slot and a hole to make adjustment easy.

Anyone that does not believe the wire angle/forces on hanging points thing, try this ....... Get a 5 gallon jerrycan full of water, put it by your side, bend your knees, grab it, straighten up lifting it. No problem - put it back down.

Now hold your arm out sraight; parallel to the ground and get someone to pass you the jerrycan, see how long you can hold it like that, if you can at all.
 
kuluchicken said:
I must admit that I personally prefer strap hangers for slightly larger items, because they hang flushly against the wall. I found that customers never liked them because they found it difficult to hang the pictures straight.

Others thoughts and preferences would be appreciated, since we are talking about hanging mechanisms :)
Click to expand...

Michele,

We almost always use strap hangers when it comes to mid-sized mirrors or shadowbox frames, where leaning away from the wall to even a small degree is objectionable and the increased weight is a concern. We default to Hook-Ups which have been discussed on several threads in this forum... These strap hangers are ADJUSTABLE!

100-series.png


Hook-ups from Stuart Industires are available through United Mfrs Supplies, Inc. or many other distributors around the world.

John
 
John Ranes II said:
Hook-ups from Stuart Industires are available through United Mfrs Supplies, Inc. or many other distributors around the world.
John
Click to expand...
Except Australia as far as I know.
A few years ago I bought some from United in USA, but I don't have any left. I would prefer to buy more from an Aussie supplier, but I cannot find one who has them!


Other hangers are also difficult to buy down here.

Strange things go on. I bought beehive hangers a couple of times from the US manufacturer a few years ago, then last year I discovered by accident that an Aussie supplier had them in stock. They were in the catalog, but I spend my time on pursuits other than digesting pages of catalogs and memorising them, so I wasn't aware of their presence. Late last year I bought all their remaining stock at a good price, so I have enough to see me out.

I wonder why no reps had ever showed me Beehive hangers and demonstrated how great they are?

I expect they didn't sell, because very few framers in Australia knew about them! Apparently I'm the only framer down here who knows about them or uses them!
 
Wow, thanks so much guys. I'm definately going to check out the beehive as well as the strap hanger you were talking about John. They both look awesome, just what I was looking for.

I don't hink I'll find them in NZ either, I'll order some online.

Cheers

Michele
 
One of the previous companies LJ merged in NZ had them, give them a call and see if there's any left.
 
osgood said:
...
I expect they didn't sell, because very few framers in Australia knew about them! Apparently I'm the only framer down here who knows about them or uses them!
Click to expand...

Another reason to be glad the Gruble exists! Where else can you keep up to date on the new things happening in our industry. The hanging system that Fletcher is now selling was first introduced to me by Cliff, who learned of it from the guy that invented it. If it weren't for the Grumble I never would have heard of the PicturePerfect system, or whatever Fletcher calls it now that they are selling it.
Just wish that they would get it to their distributors as I want another 100 or so of them :)
 
I agree totally about the 'awesomeness' of the grumble.

I have been reading the Picture Framing Magazine, Decor and umpteen Picture Framing books for years, but am learning so much more 'real stuff' from you guys in about the month or so that I have joined. I'm soo glad I stumbled onto this forum.

Thank you all so much for being willing to share. As you say, it's the little practical things and the wealth of knowledge shared that just is such an awesome plus.

Cheers

Michele
 
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