Wire Hanging Hardware

[Shayla]

35 x 56" inside back size, with a frame 1 3/8" wide by #1 5/8" high. We usually use Z-bar on larger frames, and sometimes, big 3-hole D-rings, straight up on the frame legs near the top, on either side, with no wire. But, this guy wants a wire. I've always avoided D-rings at angles, as they get weird over time, so on a few like this in the past, have used 4-hole straight Supersteel straphangers, with 100 lb. wire. But, after a recent Grumble thread about those being dicey for heavy things (i.e. cutting the wire), I'm trying wide Flanger hangers. The part the wire goes through is rounded and smooth, so that seems better. But, it has to be screwed so close to the inner edge, that it makes me wonder about hold. We've attached these 4 with 1/2" screws and plan to kite it with 100 lb. wire. Will these big Flanger hangers be okay? The whole piece weighs less than 30 lbs., so hopefully, will be fine.

 

[osgood]

As a 'has been' framer and an old furniture manufacturer, I would not want screws to be used so very close to the edge of wood in any circumstance!
There is a large possibilty of the wood splitting, especially when weight is continuously on those screws.
(I usually do not respond to posts here these days, but I felt I had to respond to this one.)

 

[RoboFramer]

As a 'has been' framer and an old furniture manufacturer, I would not want screws to be used so very close to the edge of wood in any circumstance!
There is a large possibilty of the wood splitting, especially when weight is continuously on those screws.
(I usually do not respond to posts here these days, but I felt I had to respond to this one.)

Hey, Ormond - I'm about to retire and would sooooo love to do what you have doing/are doing - have often wondered if I could, or even if I half could .... Could I resist TFG.

I think I could do it but I'd have to keep checking if you did ....then I'd see something making me think "say WHAT" and off we'd go.

Can you recommend a retirement situation that could make me just drop it .... like if you had your time over?

All I have is a large (in these parts) garden with a fish pond and a very small country around it ... in fact most of it is above it as I'm on the south coast of it.

 

[Shayla]

I'm hesitant to have screws that close to the edge, too, and thus this post. But, if not for this kind of thing, what are large Flanger hangers for? Something in-between?

 

[Ylva]

Ormond and John,
You both have experience so why not comment? Even if you are retired, you still know about framing and your opinion and input is appreciated and valuable. So please, don't leave us!!!!!!

 

[Larry Peterson]

Those don't look like wide flangers to me, they seem more like the narrow or medium flangers. Here are the wide flangers.

The screw holes are nowhere near the edge of the wood and are rated for 70 pounds.

The first image is the knock-offs from 888, the second is the original. The wide ones should be more than sufficient for what you are doing.

Getting back to the original question though..................The customer is not always right and sometimes needs to be told that.

 

[artfolio]

Larry is dead right.

As professionals we could very well be held liable if a failed hanger or frame caused damage or injury and I will bet the customer would not then say "oh well, that was my fault for insisting on that hanging system."

 

[osgood]

Hey, Ormond - I'm about to retire and would sooooo love to do what you have doing/are doing - have often wondered if I could, or even if I half could .... Could I resist TFG.

I think I could do it but I'd have to keep checking if you did ....then I'd see something making me think "say WHAT" and off we'd go.

Can you recommend a retirement situation that could make me just drop it .... like if you had your time over?

Everyone has to make their own choices, decisions because we are all different and have different desires, opportunities and financial situations. We sold our house, bought a new caravan and tow vehicle (which we changed after a year) and hit the road full time. Our situation did not allow us to have a house and a decent caravan. Some people are able to have both.
This life suits is very much and we love it.
Unfortunately, Covid has made it impossible for Australians to travel to other countries, and half the population has bought a caravan and places/highways and roads have become a little crowded.
I would love to be able to travel your country for a while in an RV of some sort, but unfortunately your money is too expensive compared to ours, so it would be too costly! However if yu came down here and traveled, it would be very inexpensive for you!

 

[osgood]

Getting back to the original question though..................The customer is not always right and sometimes needs to be told that.

These look great, Larry and would be excellent.
I had no idea that you could buy different sizes because flangers have never been available down here!
I agree with you about customers not always being right and sometimes need to be told so!
My version of the old saying is 'The customer is not always right! The customer is the customer!'

 

[David Hewitt]

Every once in a while these can help solve the problem. ( Bolt the flange or D-Ring to the plate. 8-32x3/8 works well. ) With these you could get a good 60 degrees on the wire with that frame profile.
If you were to mirror hang, they would aid in hiding the hardware by moving the hardware inward.
Simpson Strong Ties. Lowes-Home Depot

 

[Shayla]

Thanks, Guys! Feel free to share any helps, as they will help future archiver searchers, too.

After seeing Larry's pic of the large size, I was confused. What I have was sold last month by a regional supplier as 'Large', but I see now that it's the medium size. I'd like to get some of the real larges, but did I hear that they've been discontinued? If not, yay!

While rummaging, though, I came across their sizing chart. According to it, even mediums are rated for up to 50 lbs, an any size of frame. So, while large is better, would these still work on a big 30 lb. frame? It's LJ 325130, from the Spoleto line. Not as hard as oak, but still pretty solid.

 

[LaFontsee]

Not to derail the conversation, but is the reason he doesn't want z-bar because he doesn't want to put that many holes in the wall? This seems like an instance where Wallbuddies might solve both your problems. Only two small nail holes and a secure attachment to the wall rated at 80#.

I'd still run a strap of matboard or something between the top and bottom rails to give it a little more support.

Honestly though, that frame seems beefy enough to handle large single d-rings and some 3/4" x 8 screws kite-wired.

James

 

[Larry Peterson]

Here's some more info in Flangers. In the image below the Flangers are on Studio 26101 which is 1 3/16" wide and has a 7/8" stem.

Narrow: 1/4" wide. 1/8" from center of hole to edge of frame.

Medium: 3/8" wide. 3/16" from center of hole to edge of frame.

Wide 7/8" wide. 1/2" from center of hole to edge of frame.

As to the hole being to close to the edge. As with all hangers, pre-drilling and careful installation on narrow frames is required. I have installed the narrow Flangers on a 1/4" stem with no issue.

United carries Flangers. 888 carries their version of them. Now for the bad news. It appears that Flanger Picture Hangers is no longer in business. Their url, flangerpfh.com has expired. I didn't call them but someone might call their 800 number at 800-848-4665 to see if it is working.

 

[Shayla]

United carries Flangers. 888 carries their version of them. Now for the bad news. It appears that Flanger Picture Hangers is no longer in business. Their url, flangerpfh.com has expired. I didn't call them but someone might call their 800 number at 800-848-4665 to see if it is working.

​

Thanks, Larry. I just tried the number, and it's not theirs anymore. Got a message that said, 'We have a special promotion for some callers. If you're over 50, press one now. If not, press two.' I pressed one, and it hung up. So ageist. lol... I do like those wide Flanger hangers, though.

 

[Shayla]

Not to derail the conversation, but is the reason he doesn't want z-bar because he doesn't want to put that many holes in the wall? This seems like an instance where Wallbuddies might solve both your problems. Only two small nail holes and a secure attachment to the wall rated at 80#.

I'd still run a strap of matboard or something between the top and bottom rails to give it a little more support.

Honestly though, that frame seems beefy enough to handle large single d-rings and some 3/4" x 8 screws kite-wired.

James

Thanks for this note, James. I've always been hesitant to use D-rings, because of concern the loops could pull out. But at only thirty pounds, and with the encouragement of your note, I'm guessing it would be safe? Also, he wanted wire just because he thinks it's easier to hang. Your Wall Buddies idea is a good one. I'm also fine with using two 3-hole D-ring straphangers on either side near the top, a few inches down with no wire. Have done that before and hung from 75 lb. flanger hangers with no problem. (Although, as a big fan of overkill, I only use 75 lb. hangers on things that weigh much less). Maybe I'll call him again and see how comitted he is to the wire. If he is, I could switch to the kited D-rings.

 

[Larry Peterson]

I do like those wide Flanger hangers, though.

You could try the 888 version. I haven't tried them but they do look pretty good.

Large EZ Flange Picture Hanger with screws https://888mfgcorp.com/largeezflangewithscrews40pair8905.aspx

 

[Rick Granick]

I'm also fine with using two 3-hole D-ring straphangers on either side near the top, a few inches down with no wire.

I would verbally instruct the customer AND mark on the back of the frame that wire is NOT to be used. I've seen many instances where the customer has later added wire to large frames outfitted with vertical D-rings as you describe... and you know what happens eventually.

 

[alacrity8]

We've attached these 4 with 1/2" screws and plan to kite it with 100 lb. wire.

This is the first time I've seen the term "Kite" used with a wiring.
In the past, I would call this a 4 point attachment.
I have given up on using this technique as I feel it causes extra stress on the attachments on the sides of the frame.
I do not have any experimental evidence for this though.

 

[Rick Granick]

I have given up on using this technique as I feel it causes extra stress on the attachments on the sides of the frame.
I do not have any experimental evidence for this though.

I've wondered about that too. I would rather take the approach of reinforcing the frame as needed with corner plates, straps, or whatever is appropriate, rather than depending on hanging points for reinforcement.

 

[Shayla]

For the record, it's wired across the center, under the dust cover.

 

[artfolio]

I posted this on another thread recently but maybe a bit of technical and mathematical stuff will persuade the customer that wiring across the frame is a bad idea?

Artfacts Standards - Hanging artwork by wire and cord

International Standards Guide FRM 399 Adopted-1997 Standards-1998 Revised-1999 Revised-2000 FACTS publishes this document as a public service. Its use is...

www.fineart.co.uk

 

[David Hewitt]

I've wondered about that too. I would rather take the approach of reinforcing the frame as needed with corner plates, straps, or whatever is appropriate, rather than depending on hanging points for reinforcement.

For the record, it's wired across the center, under the dust cover.

I assume the wire is vertical to prevent sagging. If not, please disregard the following.
It's been my experience that wire used to support the possible sagging of the bottom rail does not work well. Why, because it's very difficult to get it tight enough to not stretch without effecting bowing in the opposite direction, If glass is involved there would be a good chance of stressing it enough to cause breakage.If the wire were to stretch (and it will) well you know the outcome.
Something solid works well as a support, wood, aluminum....
A favorite is aluminum, 1/16 thick x 1" wide. It can even go on the outside of the package and maintain a clean look. If the frame has depth, a piece of strainer works well, hidden on the inside.
Another favorite to help aid with the stressing of large frames, especially when moving them, is L-brackets. If put on correctly, so as not to create a stress on the corner, they will work excellently. Its standard procedure on all our large frames, is to install the brackets. We charge an additional $25.00+ for this. As for the customer, they see that the back of the frame package is as impressive as the front. In Shayla's frame I would recommend a 5" or 6" L-Bracket. They will eliminate any stress on the corners.

 

[Rusted One]

I'm now wondering if there is or ever has been an official "weight rating" for all the various hanging fittings. After all this time I would assume a "standard" has been developed???

 

[Rick Granick]

I'm now wondering if there is or ever has been an official "weight rating" for all the various hanging fittings. After all this time I would assume a "standard" has been developed???

I think much of the time hardware-related hanging problems tend to be with the wood itself- too much stress on a narrow moulding, improper or no pilot holes, too-soft wood, or aging/drying of wood causing hardware to pull out.

BTW, these corner braces from 888 Mfg. work well.

 

[artfolio]

I'm now wondering if there is or ever has been an official "weight rating" for all the various hanging fittings. After all this time I would assume a "standard" has been developed???

There are probably too many variables at work to allow an accurate assessment of how safe any given hanging system is. The strength of wire and metal fittings is easily worked out and tested but the attachments, screw length, density of the wood and tension on the cord/wire, even the type of wall anchor just complicate things too much.

The only safe way of approaching this is to work out what you need then build in around a 100% safety margin.

 

[monkey]

If a customer insist on a wire for a frame this size I would typically shoot a 5/8" staple through the foam board into the frame than tape the back instead of kraft paper. This ties the frame to the backing board. Than use Super Steel II hanger with #8 Super soft strand wire.