Which Stapler do you use?

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slickice

Grumbler in Training
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Oct 23, 2003
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Loc
Alabama
I am starting a new frame shop and am curious which stapler you use to staple mats in the frame. Also did you have to modify it to leave 1/4 inch sticking out? Thanks.
 
SlickIce: It's a point driver. Several brands are available but I would suggest Fletcher-Terry. There are set points and flexi points. Each require a different gun. Good luck.
 
Thanks John for your reply. I have used modified Duo-Fast guns in the past, but due to their price was looking for an alternative.

Ron, I read your thread but must have missed something???
 
We use Senco J-body staplers shooting 3/8"crown x 1/2" staples. One of our guns is at least 30 years old & still shooting so if your looking for durability Senco is a great company.

I recently picked up a Porter-Cable US58 upholstery stapler for under $100.00. It shoots our standard senco C08BAA staple and seems to be a decent tool.

We don't modify our guns - we just hold them back 1/4" or so - but I have seen simple spacers brazed to the tip.

The unmodified guns can also be used as flush staplers so I've always figured you get two tools in one that way.

Welcome to the grumble.

Peter Bowe
Saline Picture Frame Co.
 
Sorry, slickice, I may have jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

I guess there are frame shops that use staplers to fit the frame package, and sometimes they staple through the mats into the frame.

I should know this because about once-a-week, I get one of these in for repair and get to spend an hour removing industrial-size staples, hot glue, masking tape, duct tape and lord-knows-what-else.

I thought it sounded like you needed some basic education, but I shouldn't assume that based on a single post.

Pardon my rudeness, and welcome to The Grumble.

(Get the Fletcher MultiMaster fitting tool - the yellow one - unless you're doing production work.)
 
This is an open forum and everyone is welcome, including novices. The simplicity of your question indicates that your framing experience is very limited.

Slickice, you're on thin ice. While The Grumble is an excellent source for helpful information, it is no substitute for fundamental learning. You can sharpen your knowledge here, but you can't learn enough here to become a good framer from scratch.

If you aren't familiar with point drivers, you need help. And fast. That's like a chef who doesn't know there should be more than one knife and spoon in the drawer.

Before you call yourself a professional framer, find out about the primary tools and materials of the trade. Contact your local framing suppliers about fundamental classes, or at least arrange a consultation about the tools & materials available. The right tools will enable you to build frames better and faster.

Framing as a business is not like framing as a hobby for family & friends. If you damage a customer's property, you may be held liable for its restoration or replacement. And if you damage an item that has very high sentimental value -- even if no monetary value -- you could be in serious financial trouble in a hurry.

Remembering back to the time when I started in framing, I respectfully submit that your greatest weakness is that you don't know how much you don't know.

I don't mean to be derogatory -- we all began at the beginnng. But please get books, work with other framers, attend classes, and ask questions on The Grumble.

Now, to your question:
Buy a "Fletcher MultiPoint" driver first, and a box of "Flexible MultiPoints" #08-975. It is the most versatile tool of its kind. You can add others later.
 
First off, I'm not trying to be jerk here. I am fully aware what a "point driver" is. I've been in the wholesale framing industry for 15 years, producing a minimum of 800 pieces a week. FYI, most installers in this sector of the business, use "staplers" in the fitting process. It is fast, economical, and VERY easy to remove if needed. I'm not claiming to be a master framer by any means, just curious if anyone had a better, faster, more cost effective way of fitting mats other than my own. Thanks.
 
The stapler you are looking for is a Senco product. Senco has made numerous line changes the past three years but here is the current number you need to replace the old SJ series.

SFW10XP A Wire Stapler (1D0001N)

This stapler has a 3/16” crown and we find the 5/8” long staple works best for general framing applications. This staple can even be used by experienced framers to fasten the joined liners into the frame or for joining stacked frames. Note I said experienced framers. The un-experienced ones often put the staple through the back of the frame and out the front.

The SENCO product number for the staple is A10BAAPE and they come packed 22M per box.

Go to the following SENCO web site and you can see the gun and the staple specifications

http://www.senco.com/con_rem/results.asp?type=tool

The narrower the crown the stronger the staple. Some shops like to buy one stapler and use it for both stapling canvases to the stretcher bar and as well to hold the backing in the frame. To do this they will usually buy a ½” crown stapler, but it will not hold the backing into the frame as well as the 3/16” will.

I am not sure if it is still available but there was a piece that would fasten to the nose of the stapler. You would remove the two machine screws and attach this piece. It would hold the nose of the stapler ¼” out from the inner rabbet of the moulding. The operator would slide the stapler along the rabbet clicking the trigger as fast as possible and each nail would be held exactly ¼ proud to hold the backing in place. If you cannot find the offset piece I can draw it for you and you can get a sheet metal shop to make you one.


Alan Sturgess
 
Many moons ago, in another business, we had several Senco guns that needed the same application.

The Senco rep took them back to the shop and milled a 1/4" off the hammer and they worked wonderfully
 
Thanks for the replys. I will look into the Fletcher unit. I think the Senco modified by 1/4 inch off the hammer may be the way to go.
Thanks again for the input.
 
Senco used to supply 2 different length nose pieces. - I have both - changing only takes 2 screws and a minute. Long nose leaves the staple out 1/4 inch - short nose drives it flush.
 
For those of you who use staplers for fitting, and are not doing high-volume production work, can you please explain the advantages over a manual or pneumatic point driver?

It appears more than a couple of you are doing this. Maybe <u>I'm</u> the one missing something here. ;)
 
The pneumatic fitting tools are much easier on the hands. They don't deliver that extra kick after you release the handle. After a day of fitting, or even 2 hours, my right hand is numb and tingly because of using a manual fitting tool.

Fletcher now makes pneumatic tools that use the points rather than staples. It has a very low impact.
 
Thanks, Jo. I have a pneumatic Cassesse Flexipoint gun and my main objection is that you have to bend all the points down after they're inserted. That's an extra step. The Fletcher pneumatic looks very good.

But what I was really wondering is why custom framers might use a stapler rather than a point driver. The stapled packages I see are mostly from the production factories.
 
Ron, I use the stapler because it was the system in place when I bought the shop. Although there is the extra step of bending the staples down, it's quick and reliable. I didn't see the point of changing just for change's sake.
 
There is another advantage to the pheumatic guns.

If you have any hand problems, the amount of pressure to squeeze the handle of a manual tool, the air operated tool will use less effort. I can squeeze off a shot with my old Duo-Fast guns with my pinky. My staff is younger and has only used Fletcher fitting tools. I guess the Duo-Fast was implimented in the shop (before my time) when the "Red Devel" glazing gun was placed under the counter for good. The "Red Devel" tool is still there.
 
That's the first time I've heard of having to bend the staples. I used to have a Duo Fast gun and the staples didn't have to be bent. It used 3/4, 3/8 or 1/4 inch staples. It was a great tool, never had one tiny problem with it for 19 years.
 
I realize the staples you are talking about are wide rather than the 1/8 inch wide staples the Duo Fast uses, but I still don't know why the wide staples need to be bent.
 
I use Senco J-body staplers shooting 3/8"crown x 1/2" staples, like Peter. I use it for fitting and stretching canvas and much more.

I can get a box of 35,000 staples for $18.00.

Senco offers stainless steel staples for this gun.
 
Originally posted by slickice:
... I am fully aware what a "point driver" is. I've been in the wholesale framing industry for 15 years...
Click to expand...
My apologies for assuming that you were a novice. Your original post gave no indication that you knew about point drivers, and you said you were just starting your new business. It's still odd that you could be in the industry 15 years and not know all about them, though.

[ 10-24-2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Jim Miller ]
 
Here's why I asked about the staplers and why I am leary of them. In the hands of a hack, I think it's one of the most misused tools in the shop.

I know there are no hacks on this forum, but there's plenty of them out there.

This morning, I reframed an oil. It was not a production job originally. Somebody had it custom framed by a shop that doesn't use shop stickers.

The stretchers were deeper than the frame, so the fitter started to put flexpoints into the frame and staple them down into the stretcher so they wouldn't pull out. I guess offsets would take too long.

About half-way around the frame he/she apparently decided, "To **** with it!" and started putting the staples through the stretchers (and the canvas) and toenailing them into the frame. The staples were counter-sunk deeply into the stretchers.

It was loads of fun taking THAT one apart.
 
That could sure happen with the Duo Fast gun, Ron. I wouldn't dare to use it to stretch a canvas, the staples would go all the way through the canvas.

The missing link here is using good judgement.
 
Ron is right, a pneumatic tool in the wrong hand is a horrible thing. I recently took apart a set of 4 12x16 factory framed pieces to remat them. After the second one I started counting-187 staples in the third one. My guess is they paid by the fastener.

That said-I love my pneumatic tools. They are faster, easier on the hands and versatile. We use staples, flexipoints, glazier's points, framers points, brads, offsets, wooden blocks and screws to fit pictures as the situation warrants. 90% of the straightfoward jobs are stapled.

When I take apart a job fit with a point driver I figure the fitter was either a novice or or a holdout headed for tendonitis. Horrible things have been done with staplers but the same can be said of tape, nails and matcutters.

Peter Bowe
 
When I take apart a job fit with a point driver I figure the fitter was either a novice or or a holdout headed for tendonitis
Click to expand...
Or someone who's fitting 4 pieces/day - not 400.

My question is not about pneumatics - the two compressors in my shop are not there to fill tires - it's about staplers.

How 'bout a pneumatic point driver (e.g. the Fletcher) vs. a Senco stapler? Why would you choose one over the other?

I'm not arguing - just wondering.
 
When I started framing in 1975 I was trained on a fletcher #2 diamond point driver. This is a venerable tool and when I fix windows at my ever detiorating house it is still my tool of choice.
As a fitting tool it is marginal. It was designed to be placed directly on glass and shoot a smallish point that could be concealed by putty. I challenge Ron or any other of the Luddites out there to produce a less ergonomic tool than a cast iron point driver

The Senco stapler, 25 years ago, did all a point driver could do and did it better. The basic mission of a fitting tool is pretty simple - insert a fastener into the side of a frame rabbet with enough of a reveal to retain a backing board.
A staple is a graceless thing widely used in all manner of cheaply built things but a glaziers point is not exactly a hand fitted dovetail.

I like the fletcher pneumatic point driver. In some applications it works better than a stapler. For all around economy, efficiency, and ergonomics the stapler will probably remain the first choice but I could happily exist with either one. Even at 4 pictures a day a pneumatic fitting tool makes sense to me.

I am the proud owner of 13 assorted pneumatic staplers and nailguns and I'm beginning to feel a little bit like a NRA member as I defend them.

Peter Bowe
 
Thanks, Peter. That's pretty close to what I was looking for.

I don't imagine there are a whole lot of framers using diamond glazer's points to fit pictures any more, so the term "fitting tool" is probably more accurate than "point driver" and might help avoid some confusion.
 
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:

I don't imagine there are a whole lot of framers using diamond glazer's points to fit pictures any more
Click to expand...
Now, admit it, Ron. You said that just for me, didn't you? ;)

My Red Devil (cast iron) point driver sits prominately on the work table right along with the Fletcher. Hey, that's my roots, man!

I probably use it 1/10 of 1% of the time, but at least I know right where it is if I need it.

I also have one of those manual thingies that you attach the Fletcher points to, one at a time. I even use that if I want to be very gentle with the frame.

Betty
 
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