What is the best way to learn the art of framing?

Create a Post
M

Mikej

Grumbler
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Posts
26
Hi everyone!

This is my second post on the Grumble. My first one is in the "Business issues" section. Basically, not to repeat too much, My name is Mike, and I am considering getting in to the custom framing business. I have lots of questions, and since this is such a big decision, I want to do as much research as possible.

I started thinking about opening a shop because my family is relocating back to my wife's hometown in or around August of this year, and since I hate working in the corporate world, I thought that maybe framing is a good career change to make.

I have about 10 years experience in woodworking. I make custom jewelry boxes and humidors as a hobby and give them as gifts that are always very well received. I only say this to let you know that I understand working in fine details. I also own a lot of woodworking tools, but thats for another thread :). I also have experience in graphic design, and I am an avid digital photographer (I also have a lot of photo equipment).

Anyway, I guess I'd like to know what you grumblers feel is the best and fastest way to learn the art and business of framing.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time necessary to get a job at a shop and learn from a master. I need classes or schools that can get me up and running in a matter of weeks. I know it will take a lifetime of learning to become truly skilled, and I am fine with pursuing that goal, but I need to learn the basics and then pull myself up by the bootstraps and go. Of course I plan on always taking classes, and getting involved in professional groups. But how can I learn what I need to to start a shop?

I also don't mean business lessons (except those specific to framing) I've owned a business in the past, and I have a lot of knowledge about general business.

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful responses.

Mike
 
Where are you located??? You just missed Vegas, but the next show I believe is Baltimore....somone tell me if I am wrong on that. It is the first year and it seems to be looking good. The classes are not available at this point, think it will be the end of this month.

At the trade shows, you can get education on basic mat cutting, to frame business classes. Anything in between it is really a must. Unfortunately the classes do overlap. So you might miss some that you want to take, but you will get to take alot. I have taken I think five classes at one show. That is alot, I think I missed out on the show floor, so next time I went down to four classes. That gave me time for both the show and classes.

PL
 
I would suggest you start by taking one of the week long framing classes offered by various companies around the country. Larson Juhl offers these in various locations and I think theirs is a 5 day class as memory serves.

I went to a week long class offered by Framers Supply in Florida and taught by a Grumber, Pam McFadden. I lucked out and only had 1 other student in class besides myself and recieved much personal attention. After taking that type of class you will really have a good idea if this is something for you or not. Follow that up by classes of special need or interest at the various conventions thur out the year.

Shouldn't be to hard to do a search for "Picture Framing School" and come up with location and schedules.


Take a look here:http://www.pictureframingmagazine.com/calendar.html
 
Last edited:
All good suggestions. & try to hire a good experienced framer. Lots of frame shops incorporate other lines to make a go of it. Maybe your interest in photography might suggest something? Always good to go with your strong points. What area of the country will you be relocating to?
 
Join PPFA TODAY! http://www.ppfa.com/ and we'll see you in Vegas on March 6th... take every class you can squeez, beg, sneak, weasel into. If between 8am and 5pm you are ever out of class for more than 10 minutes and rushing to the next class... you're slacking.

If you have the $250,000 stashed away to do the job, open a franchize like Deck the Walls, The Great Frame Up, or Fast Frame... and let them help you hire experienced framers to do the work (and teach you).

Otherwise, if you don't have that all in you... get a job with a master.

Life is what happens when you're making other plans.

The woodworking knowledge will help, the attention to detail will help a lot. The willingness to learn will go a long way. The being in a huge hurry is a train wreck looking to happen.

good luck, and we'll see you in Vegas.
 
Baer,

I'm not actually in a hurry.

I simply can't afford to take a job at a frame shop, making very little money, while not being able to start, market, and build my own business.

I'm fine with making little or no money at first in my own shop, but that also means that every day I will be able to do things that will build the business foundation (promotion, marketing, PR, etc.). Working in a shop, won't allow me to do that.

There are lots of framing schools out there, and all or most of them CLAIM to teach you what you need to open a shop in a week or so. Franchise training is usually about a week long... coincidence?

Now, I'm not, in any way, saying that I thing that I can learn everything about framing in a week. But the basics? Heck, I'd love to be able to work with a "master" for a week or two. Do you know anyone that would be willing to hire me, with no experience, for only a couple of weeks so I can learn the business?

Maybe it is a trainwreck, but I do believe I could start out with a minimum of basic skills, open up and build on that.


Thanks to everyone for the answers so far.

Mike
 
Mikej said:
Heck, I'd love to be able to work with a "master" for a week or two. Do you know anyone that would be willing to hire me, with no experience, for only a couple of weeks so I can learn the business?
Click to expand...

Mike, Investigate the schools, choose one or two and ask for opinion on them, here. Most well run schools are going to teach you the basics of framing but even in that time it is only going to be basic but should get you started in the right direction. At least it will teach you "what you don't know" so that you will be able to look for the answers.

I doubt that any working frame shop would be interested in hiring someone to train for a week or two. That would slow them down to the point that they would loose money, even if you paid them. I think only a school setting (classes) are geared to actually teach you.
 
Fourcorners,

Right now I live in the New York City area, but we're planning on moving to the Buffalo, NY area.

Jpaul,

I was being a little sarcastic in that comment. It was in response to Baer telling me to "get a job with a master."

I am considering schools, do you have any recommendations?

Thanks,
Mike
 
j Paul said:
I doubt that any working frame shop would be interested in hiring someone to train for a week or two. That would slow them down to the point that they would loose money, even if you paid them. I think only a school setting (classes) are geared to actually teach you.
Click to expand...

Actually, I did invite someone into my shop, who introduced themselves on the Grumble and said he was thinking of starting up a shop in a nearby town and what would it take to do it? He came in for about 3 days and found there was a heck of a lot more to framing than he learned at the one-week framing school, and decided against starting from scratch. He was only a couple of days away from signing a lease on the empty building, and said he was grateful for the opportunity to hang out in my shop, and felt he would'
ve been "committing business suicide" if he'd gone through with it on his own, with no experience, save the framing school "basics". He did, in fact, have vast business experience but realized that would not have been enough to survive.

Instead, he purchased an already existing shop, kept the framer and is learning from her, and still pretty overwhelmed, but glad he did it that way. He was at WCAF last week, taking classes, and will continue the education process.

Just a thought. E-mail me if you want, and I'll put you in touch with him, unless he chimes in first.
 
Val said:
He came in for about 3 days and found there was a heck of a lot more to framing than he learned at the one-week framing school, and decided against starting from scratch.
Click to expand...

Val,

Could you please expand a little on what he learned in those 3 days?

Thats exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. What didn't the school teach him?

The 1 week schools don't really seem too great to me (from what I've seen, but if anyone has a recommendation for one, I'd love to hear it). They all seem to basically teach you to frame your diploma. I really could learn that from a book.

So far Baer's suggestion of the PPFA show seems like the best, but for the life of me I can't tell if he was being sarcastic or not.

Mike
 
Mikej said:
I simply can't afford to take a job at a frame shop, making very little money, while not being able to start, market, and build my own business.

I'm fine with making little or no money at first in my own shop, but that also means that every day I will be able to do things that will build the business foundation (promotion, marketing, PR, etc.). Working in a shop, won't allow me to do that.
Click to expand...

Learning how to frame well is every bit as important as promotion, marketing, PR, etc. Doing good work will bring you repeat business, and you know that getting more work from your existing customers is easier than getting new customers. If your work quality isn't up to par, not only will nobody come back, but they will bad mouth you to their friends and acquaintances.

Look at apprenticing in someone else's shop as one of the most important investments of your time and money that you can make. Not only can they teach you the nuts and bolts of framing, they can help you with design, merchandising, working with customers, and a host of other things.

And here's another consideration -- what if you hate framing? What if you find you have no aptitude for it? That month you spend as an apprentice somewhere can save you years of grief.
 
Relative to Baer's comment about PPFA, I don't beleive he was being sarcastic. That is the next best venue to the WCAF that you just missed.

Good Luck
 
Mikej said:
Val,

They all seem to basically teach you to frame your diploma. I really could learn that from a book.
Click to expand...

Mike, I mean this in the most sincere way, have you ever framed anything yourself from scratch? Mounted your artwork, cut your mats, cut & joined your frame, cut glass and so on? I was a cabinetmaker, had read plenty of books and watched videos on framing and had read everything on the Grumble before taking a class. So with respect, there is a BIG difference between reading/watching it and doing it. After a week (anywhere) you really are only going to have the basics down (hopefully). So unless you just want to buy some equipment and start practicing on your own stuff at home, (or are lucky to find someone like Val) taking a class is probably your best and least expensive way to get a hands on idea if this is for you or not. If the work itself is now for you, at least you'll know better what to look for in an employee!
 
Mikej said:
Right now I live in the New York City area, but we're planning on moving to the Buffalo, NY area.
Click to expand...
See, you're going to find some very good experienced framers up that way. They are reading this right now too (no, don't look at them!) How are you going to compete with their experience & knowlege? You might find some not so great framers too but they just might be with a huge national chain with immense buying power and maketing machine so they can get by that way. How will you compete with that? I know you know this, but look to your strengths and use them & hire qualified people to help you in areas you aren't strong. A frame shop is no different than other business'. It's hard work & a thin line between success & failure.
 
2 1/2 hours away

I'm in Skaneateles, NY - 2 1/2 hours away from Buffalo by way of the Thruway. You could always stop in and learn a little :D

I've been framing for about 15 years, but I learn something new every day!

Elaine
 
Mikej said:
Val,
Could you please expand a little on what he learned in those 3 days?

Thats exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. What didn't the school teach him?
Click to expand...

Mike, I contacted the fellow I mentioned and asked him if he would post here, or contact you. I'm sure he will, and his experience would be better than telling you mine, or trying to speak for him.

My experience was that I went to a week long framing school taught by Paul Frederick, one of the leaders, some would call him the Patriarch, of our industry. I had done some framing at home for family and friends, mostly needlework. Then I started my first shop from scratch, and ran it for several years. I didn't have the wonderful resource of anything like the Grumble, and what I learned was by trial and error (and some rather costly errors, I might say!) and at times, very frustrating and painful.

That was 25 years ago, and times have certainly changed. I would not attempt that today, with technology and competition with experienced framers and big box stores. This time around, after I closed the first shop and decided to try "something else", I missed framing, and so I framed for several other shops, including a Big Box store, and then bought an existing shop. And it's still been a lot of hard, hard work. Made easier and more fun by my Grumble family!

I'm not saying for you not to attempt that yourself. Just to go into it with as much research, preparation and experience (in another shop, for instance) as you can. Can you afford to? I wonder if you can afford not to.

And Baer wasn't being sarcastic about PPFA.....join now and get the most out of it that you can, that's what it's there for, and keep Grumbling too.

I'm sure you will hear from our friend soon.
 
Jpaul,

Good question.

The answer is yes with a but, or no with an if...

The yes is that I have framed several of my photos(from 5x7 up to a 11x14). I've made frames in my woodshop (basic moldings joined cut with my mitre saw and joined with glue and brads) I cut the mat myself with a handheld cutter and a T square, and cut the plexiglass on my tablesaw. I've cut glass in the past, but never for framing (I did stained glass art back in college).

But no, I've never framed a true work of art using paper hinges etc. I've never done anything but a square mat, and never used V nails.

Cliff,

OK, glad to hear he was serious, Usually tradeshows cater to seasoned professionals and not beginners. It looks like a great show. Are there others during the rest of the year? My brother is getting married in March. It might be difficult. I understand there is a Decor show in Baltimore, is that one good?

Thanks,
Mike
 
You guys need to make sure somebody not in the industry can join th ePPFA. As I recently checked with national on an individual who wanted to join but was not in business or working at a shop as an individual. I was told it was a professional association and you either had to have your own biz or be working for somebody in the biz who did not care to join and you could join as an individual. This is just as I was told a few months ago and it surprised me. I suppose there may be a "Don't ask Don't tell" policy or something like that. The individual I was inquiring about was free to attend our events but as a non member. Just food for thought.
 
Yes you can join PPFA if you are not yet a professional in the framing business. They offer a trial membership for $50. I know because I have just recently done it. :)
 
Well, I just called National to clarify. What I was told is fact. Nick told me if somebody is in the process of opening a shop but not open yet they are allowed to join. But you have to be in the process. As i recall Verdaccio you are in the process so, that would explain that. I'm just wanting to get the facts straight as I had to turn a person down for membership because he was just investigating the biz. I don't want to give out bad information on the G or to prospective members here.

I was told you can still attend the convention as a non-member, there are member and non-member prices.
 
Ray Dwyer is a top-notch instructor (he owns and operates West Art Framing). You learn MUCH more in his week long class than how to frame your diploma. I would HIGHLY recommend taking a class from Ray. Feel free to contact me with any questions you have about the education you will receive from West Art Framing.

I have also had the opportunity to attend the WCAF show the last two years. The education there is top-notch as well. It is too bad it only lasts four days!
 
ok, I'm back.... sorry, I had to go to work... where was I . . . oh yeah, I had left Mikej a set of instructions.... and I see you haven't even done the first one.

Ok, I see there is a problem.... and it's not the one you think.

The problem is, you are serious about doing this. If you were, be quiet I'm talking, if you were, then when Kathy explained that you need to be either "WORKING FOR SOMEONE" or "IN THE PROCESS OF OPENING YOUR OWN STORE".

gawd I hate yelling. so, you can wait out the year waiting for WCAF or PPFA [because I don't give Baltimore any more chance then a plugged three-cent piece] or you can go to work for someone, which you don't want to do.

Now, am I being sarcastic... just wait I might get there if you keep acting like a spoiled Gen Xer.

I hold this Profession at the same level as my nephew does his Maxialfacial surgery practice. You said you want to learn... several here have told you the best ways to learn, but those ways don't fit into what you thought you wanted, so you just blithly rejected them. If you were standing in my shop today, this is when I would invite you to run down to Starbucks and see if I'm one of the slackers down there.

But I'm going to go out on a limb here and trust that you really want this and are willing to do what it takes.

So here is the offer I'll make for you:

Mail me two crisp $100 bills and all of your information. I'm going to hire you. You're on commission only. Being in NY, you are just about as close to my frame jobs as I want you.
When I recieve the buck$, I will let PPFA know that they can sell you a package SuperSaver under the Charlton Productions. You will make your own way to Vegas and fend for yourself. You will have but in seat 8am till 5pm for four solid days. You will not whine. You will take notes. You will apply yourself.
On that Saturday, IF I like what I hear back from the other instructors, I will give you my cell phone number, and we will talk over dinner about where you go from there.

You will need to take classes from:

Bob Carter
Jim Miller
Hugh Phibbs
John Raines
Nona Powers
Chris Pachetckie
Bossy Ellen
if you are up to it, you might take my

Cutting oval and oddshaped glass by hand

the other three classes are off limits.

Ball is now in your court. Play or go home, it's your choice.
 
Baer, Mike J wasn't questioning it Verdaccio was. For the record, Mike J can go to the convention as a non member and get one of those super pass deals for I think they said $299. Super Pass means you can attend as many classes as your heart desires. But, hooking up with Baer would probably be more entertaining.
 
Emibub said:
Well, I just called National to clarify. What I was told is fact. Nick told me if somebody is in the process of opening a shop but not open yet they are allowed to join. But you have to be in the process. As i recall Verdaccio you are in the process so, that would explain that. I'm just wanting to get the facts straight as I had to turn a person down for membership because he was just investigating the biz. I don't want to give out bad information on the G or to prospective members here.

I was told you can still attend the convention as a non-member, there are member and non-member prices.
Click to expand...

My apologies, you are correct. I did not realize that they allowed me the trial membership because I am in process of getting a shop going.
 
What an offer!

Baer Charlton said:
So here is the offer I'll make for you:

Mail me two crisp $100 bills and all of your information. I'm going to hire you. You're on commission only. Being in NY, you are just about as close to my frame jobs as I want you.
When I recieve the buck$, I will let PPFA know that they can sell you a package SuperSaver under the Charlton Productions. You will make your own way to Vegas and fend for yourself. You will have but in seat 8am till 5pm for four solid days. You will not whine. You will take notes. You will apply yourself.
On that Saturday, IF I like what I hear back from the other instructors, I will give you my cell phone number, and we will talk over dinner about where you go from there.

You will need to take classes from:

Bob Carter
Jim Miller
Hugh Phibbs
John Raines
Nona Powers
Chris Pachetckie
Bossy Ellen
if you are up to it, you might take my

Cutting oval and oddshaped glass by hand

the other three classes are off limits.

Ball is now in your court. Play or go home, it's your choice.
Click to expand...

Ok...if Baer is even remotely serious with this run, don't walk, to your nearest Western Union to send him the funds (send some extra to make up for it not being cash...never send cash by mail). I found this site early last year and "lurked" until after I took my course in Kingston, Ontario. If I had the means (not just money but time) I would jump at this kind of opportunity. The people on this forum are wonderful but some of the best advise comes from those that may appear to be "abrasive" or "harsh" because they are trying to educate about the reality of framing. The real world won't hold your hand and empathise with you when the going gets rough (which it will no matter how successful you become).

As to your concerns about the week long courses...I took one and know that it didn't teach me everything and I too was skeptical because I knew it wouldn't teach me everything. However, it was a great investment. I learned a lot which has gotten me started in the right direction (I hope). The course provided enough of the basis to really jazz me up about framing. That week I was obsessed, I dreamt about framining and even had to get up in the middle of the night to sketch out what I wanted to do to my mats for my diploma. Right after leaving I couldn't wait for my mat cutter to arrive so I could get to work. I know I have a long way to go but I am continuing to work on my own, I have picked up some reference material from Columba Publishing (Viviene Kistler 7 vol. set; Nona Powers Color and Design for Picture Framers; and Brian Wolf's Cutting, Carving and Decorating Mats). I am hoping that Vegas will be a go next year...

Ahhhhh...so much to learn so little time, but boy am I loving it!
 
OK. Here's the deal. Picture framing is like chess. It takes you about an hour to learn the moves. It will take a lifetime to master unless you are one of the Framing Prodigies. I am not one. I am a pretty good framer and a pretty good businesswoman. I could be better at both, but I'm not bad. It has taken me 25 years to reach my current level of expertise.

We bought an existing business 12 years ago, and this year, for the first time, I feel that we are making enough money to where I could call running a frame shop a good way to make a living. (Disregarding the 60-70 hour weeks...)

Hardly anyone is what you might call prosperous. We make ends meet, we frame incredible stuff ( and HOO BOY ugly stuff, too!). It is a tough way to make a living and you better be darn sure that you like it, or you will understand what true torture is... (when you can't afford to get out and you can't afford to stay, either)
 
Mike:
You're getting lots of good advice here; unfortunately you don't seem to be willing to take any of it.
We were involved in the framing business in many ways before we bought our place 5 yrs ago. Thought we knew everything we needed to know - HAH! Like Ellen, it's taken a long time for us to learn "how" to run the business - the framing part is sort of evolutionary. That is, you know somethings, you learn more, learn more, then learn some more. Along the way you take classes, find mentors, and keep learning (even after 12 years)
And remember - the framing is the easy part. The hard part is the business part - how to run it and make money at it.
Not trying to be discouraging,mind you, but we're offering the reality of what it's like.
BTW if we ever progress to the level of an Ellen or Baer we know we'll be rockin'
But hey - what do any of us here know? We're just a bunch of frame shop owners. It's not like it's hard, right??

Tony
 
Some of you people are absolutely unbelievable.

But I guess it serves me right for posting anything on a site called "the Grumble"

Seriously, in less than 24 hours I'm accused of not taking advice? Seriously, I'm supposed to drop everything and run out and listen to some of you, because this is a field I'm CONSIDERING!?!?! And cause I don't think getting a job with someone for a few months so I can then go off and open my own shop and be their competitor is really in either my or their best interests? And no one can answer what I'm going to learn in that time with a "Master" that they can't teach you at a class or franchise training. Please, prove me wrong and post some specific things that a master will teach me that are necessary for a startup business... You know the things I need to know BEFORE opening up my doors. Come on, don't be afraid, and be specific.

Get real people.

And I'm supposed to send some lunatic money so I can be his "employee". Just so I can go to a TRADESHOW? (which by the way is the same week as my brothers wedding)

Jesus everloving Christ, you people are acting like all you ever do is preserve the dead sea scrolls, and not that print of "The scream" for that cute chick's first apartment.

For those of you who gave serious answers and weren't trying to be a-holes, I sincerely thank you.
 
Mikej, hon, take a pill.

I was going to post something about knowing how to handle art being a very important aspect of learning the art of framing. But for now I could just say that to know the difference between The Dead Sea Scrolls and "The Scream" poster could be just as tricky as it is to discern the difference between serious post-ers and "a-holes" here on The Esteemed Grumble.

And for the record, no Grumble "A-holes" have posted to your thread.

I would also like to mention that dealing with the general public is a HUGE part of being a pitcher framer. You might need to tone it down a bit if you are hoping to make a living doing it. Watch your mouth, please. A sense of humor will also help when (not "if") times get tough. Do work on that a bit too, please.

And read Ellen's post. Twice.

edie the whoadobbin goddess
 
Let's see if I get this correct Mike.

  • You don't think you can learn anything in a week long class that you can/t learn from a book? So hands on classes can't really help you.
  • A class like that is only going to teach you the basics?
  • You don't know what a "master framer" could teach you that you would need as a start up framer? You only need the basics, I guess!
  • What can you learn/need to learn from a master? If you have read/searched this forum, you know that there is a wealth of info shared here all of the time. Even those who have been framing for years come across new things all of the time and ask their peers here how to handle things. If you don't have someone to ask about these things, who you gonna call?
  • You don't know what you don't know yet.
  • One area I can think of specifically is that of photograpic prints. You can do a lot of damage if you can't identify types and know how to handle mounting. Not even the experts can always identify them on first sight.
  • You came here asking questions of those who are trying to make a living as framers and in my opinion were very well recieved.(compare the welcome and advice we have given you to the guy wanting to know how to frame his jerseys just because he can do it cheaper) We have been giving you honest opinions and some gentle ribbing from some. (Baer's offer if I read it correctly, actually would save you $99.00 on the regular cost. And yea, Baer is Big and Boistoues(sp)but has a wealth of information.
  • As a new guest in our home, you should show a little respect and not start copping an attitude or you will find any offers of help will most likely dry up.
I've got to add that when I first started on this forum I was in a similar situation, looking to change careers and start in framing. I felt very welcomed. I guess it is all in your attitude. There a a lot of opinions given here. A lot of facts presented as well. Take what fits you and leave the rest. You will not win a lot of friends here by going on the attack.

If you don't like what I said, there is an easy solution "put me on your ignore list" If you want to play nice, I'm here to continue to give you my limited experience for what it is worth to you.


PS. Take a look at all of the posts by JDS., Jerry is also looking to get into framing and has posted many times asking questions and recieving help and adding to our community. Ask Jerry if he agrees with all of the advice given, at least he knows how to play nice.
 
Last edited:
MikeJ, you have been given some sound advice.
If you are serious about learning the trade then you will take some of it.
If not, then you are free to leave.

Insulting the residents here won't get you anywhere fast.

Good luck in whatever you decide.
 
Edie,

Just so you know, I've already gotten PM's from other posters saying they won't post on this or my other thread because they don't want to get "ripped to shreds" like I am.

And seriously, are you really trying to tell me that it takes years of experience to know the difference between a poster bought off of Liebermans and an original piece of art? Seriously? What percentage of your business is framing one of a kind art? and what percentage is framing non-limited production prints?

Hey, maybe I'm just gifted in being able to recognize the difference, maybe I'm a prodigy and this is definitely the business I should go in to.

And for the record, no Grumble "A-holes" have posted to your thread.
Click to expand...

Really? Because I honestly think those who that comment was aimed at know exactly who they are, but then again, maybe they don't, and thats the problem.

And BTW, Ellen's post is great, as are some others that are seriously offering advice and not trying to haze a new member of the guild, or scare away a newbie. Believe me I can tell the difference.
 
Mikej said:
Edie,

And seriously, are you really trying to tell me that it takes years of experience to know the difference between a poster bought off of Liebermans and an original piece of art?

Yes.

Seriously?
Completely.

What percentage of your business is framing one of a kind art?
Most of it.

and what percentage is framing non-limited production prints?
very small.

Hey, maybe I'm just gifted in being able to recognize the difference, maybe I'm a prodigy and this is definitely the business I should go in to.
You may well be, but after training dozens of potential employees over the years, I never assume that what is obvious to me is also to you or anyone else. There is lots of very valuable non-limited production prints as well as worthless one of a kind art. It is that gray area that will trip you up.

Really? Because I honestly think those who that comment was aimed at know exactly who they are, but then again, maybe they don't, and thats the problem.
I have met, ate with, drank with and talked business with many who have offered their time and advice to you on this thread and I can say without any hesitation that not a one was an "A-hole."

And BTW, Ellen's post is great, as are some others that are seriously offering advice and not trying to haze a new member of the guild, or scare away a newbie. Believe me I can tell the difference.
Click to expand...

I can also say without any hesitation that no one is trying to "haze" you or scare you away. This is a professional forum. We answer questions as they are asked. We have a collective as well as individual sense(s) of humor. We like to have fun. But we are professionals and demand your respect.

Just my take,

edie the perfeshunnil goddess
 
Mikej said:
not trying to haze a new member of the guild, or scare away a newbie.
I don't think anyone is trying to haze you.

And as far as scaring you away. Some might because of their own struggles be advising you to really look closely at opening this type of business at this time. But scare you away! Why? If you are not opening up next to them in their town, why would they possibly care? The more, and better qualified independants that we get the better for our industry.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
* You don't think you can learn anything in a week long class that you can/t learn from a book? So hands on classes can't really help you.
Click to expand...

Umm, no, I asked for advice on classes that were more than just learning to frame your diploma, are you telling me that every "school" out there is excellent? I'm sure there are great schools out there, and I'm also sure there are rotten ones. What I want to know is what DON'T you learn at a good one?

* A class like that is only going to teach you the basics?
Click to expand...

Yeah, some basics are a lot more basic that others basics. And yeah, I'd much rather learn about the different kinds of matboards from reading a book and get hands on training in a class.

* You don't know what a "master framer" could teach you that you would need as a start up framer? You only need the basics, I guess!
Click to expand...

Well I really wouldn't know that since no one can tell me what I'd learn from this so called "Master". Heck, no one can even tell me how to evaluate whether any framer willing to hire me IS a master.

* What can you learn/need to learn from a master? If you have read/searched this forum, you know that there is a wealth of info shared here all of the time. Even those who have been framing for years come across new things all of the time and ask their peers here how to handle things. If you don't have someone to ask about these things, who you gonna call?
Click to expand...

Actually I've lurked on the forum for several weeks now, and I do wholeheartedly agree that there is a wealth of information here, but it sure seems to me that most people posting with questions ARE the masters! And they don't know what to do in their situation. So it does seem to me that spending time with a "master" would be worthwile, but you are ALWAYS going to have challenges, always. It is still a cost benefit analysis. So far the costs seem to outweigh the benefits, but I'm surely open to being convinced to the error of my thinking.

It seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that it is better to take a good class, jump in to the industry with both feet, and learn as I go. Heck with only 1 frame a week (if I'm lucky) in the beginning, I'll have plenty of time to practice and learn new skills.

* You don't know what you don't know yet.
Click to expand...

Which would be why I'm here asking questions about what I don't know. But many of the answers are glib or they tell me basics like have a good business plan.

* One area I can think of specifically is that of photograpic prints. You can do a lot of damage if you can't identify types and know how to handle mounting. Not even the experts can always identify them on first sight.
Click to expand...

If experts can't identify them, then ai would think that spending a couple of months with a 'master" won't help me hone that skill too much. Unless of course the master is an expert in photo identification.

* You came here asking questions of those who are trying to make a living as framers and in my opinion were very well recieved.(compare the welcome and advice we have given you to the guy wanting to know how to frame his jerseys just because he can do it cheaper) We have been giving you honest opinions and some gentle ribbing from some. (Baer's offer if I read it correctly, actually would save you $99.00 on the regular cost. And yea, Baer is Big and Boistoues(sp)but has a wealth of information.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't feel too well received, and I've gotten PM's lamenting the treatment I've been getting, so I do know its not just me.

* As a new guest in our home, you should show a little respect and not start copping an attitude or you will find any offers of help will most likely dry up.
Click to expand...

With me, you get what you give. I feel I have been very respectful to those who have taken the time to give serious information and who have not treated me with disrespect. Those others, master or not, get what they give.
 
Mikej said:
I need classes or schools that can get me up and running in a matter of weeks.
Click to expand...



Went back and read your original post Mike.

Seriously, I think that the answer to that question is that such a class or school does not exist.
(there is not a school or class with that specific objective) you would have to pick from a lot of classes/locations ala carte.

Now if you have the business skills and the basic knowledge and know when to turn down a project that is over your head, write your business plan, find a location and jump in.

Like I said before in an earlier post, if you have a specific question, such as what supplier would you recommend for this or that, ask, and I am sure you will get a specific response.
 
I'm staying out of this one, folks!

Whew!

Dave Makielski
 
Mikej

I think you are going to make it. It sounds like you have some passion and appear to be persistent.

I started out with $385.00 and a razor blade screwed to a block of wood and a straight edge. Over the years I believe that passion and persistence has helped me the most.

Some things that have helped me along the way.

Listen to others.
Don't not do something because you are afraid.
Read the grumble everyday.
"Don't dabble." Ron E.
"Take what you can use and leave the rest." Ellen C
Plan well
Start now.
Change as fast as you need to.


Mitch
 
Mikej said:
There are lots of framing schools out there, and all or most of them CLAIM to teach you what you need to open a shop in a week or so. Franchise training is usually about a week long... coincidence?
Click to expand...


I'm hesitant to wander into the trainwreck this thread has become, but I would like to clarify something I can speak to and then run.

Franchise training is typically a week to ten days, but I don't think anyone is under the illusion that anyone can be taught everything in that time. It's definitely enough for them to hit the ground running though and get off to a good start.

Will a framing school also be there for a week to help get the store open and review everything? Will the framing school schedule follow-up visits and be available for help and advice at any time?

MCPF, by the way.
 
j Paul said:
You already identified yourself Dave, we know who you are and where you are, better duck, coward!;)

TRANSLATION FOR SOME who don't get it. That was good natured fun from one grumbler to another.
Click to expand...
Dave's not here, man...
 
Mitch,

Thank you very very much for the kind words.

Framerdave,

I do understand that franchises give more than just a week of training, but like you said, the week to 10 days is enough to hit the ground running.

I'm considering the franchise route (not just in framing). My problem is that I have a "if they can do it, I can do it better" attitude. I'd rather do a case study on successful franchises/shops, and copy their strategy while improving on it. It's a lot cheaper than a franchise fee.
 
Mikej said:
Well I really wouldn't know that since no one can tell me what I'd learn from this so called "Master". Heck, no one can even tell me how to evaluate whether any framer willing to hire me IS a master.
Click to expand...

To address the specific question of how to identify a master, here are some criteria I would consider:
- Do they have a CPF, GCF or MCPF?
- Have they taught at the trade shows or at local PPFA chapters?
- Have they written books on framing?
- Have they written articles for Decor or PFM?
- Do they post good, informative information on forums such as Hitchhikers or The Grumble?

Obviously, not every CPF, GCF or MCPF will have published items or taught classes, but the fact that they hold the certification means that they know significantly more than the kid down at the local big-box frame shop.

Speaking as one who *hopes* to be ready for the CPF exam next year, I can tell you that it's not an easy certification to get.
 
Are you dead set against hiring someone with experience? You seem to be ignoreing this possibility but I think it may be your best bet (even part time help will get you lots of the info you'll need to take care of your customers). I don't know which schools will help the most but the PPFA & the trade journals have lots of info on procedures & ads from the vendors that will help you get the materials & sample you need. A short shopping list of things that will come up frequently & you will need to be able to explain to your customers. (just off the top of my head, I'll be leaving out plenty)
Mats: Paper,Rag,alpha, buffered, lignin, fabrics (wrapped& factory) dyes, zeolites, use of fillets with, how to seal, how and when to hinge & by which method.
Which brings us to mounting: Conservation &, or, "museum", dry, wet, spray, pma, gel, float, tapes & when they can be used & which type & for what. Paper hinges, types of paper for hinges & which to use for what, "T" hinge,pass through, folded, micro dot,
Mounting objects of all types, conservation & not so. Organic & man made, antique, contemperary, glass, plastic, wood, fabric, artifact or sentimental.
Identify various paper & media for proper matting and mounting. Water or solent based? Pigment or dye? Pencil, charcoal, pastel? Rag, pulp,mixed, coated, fiber, sized, various photo papers & print types.
Proper fitting technique for various items: prints, canvas, panels, objects, pastels, needlework, spaceing requirements, shadow boxes, appropriate hanging hardware.
Glazing types, glass, regular, non glare, conservation, anti reflective, acrylic sheet types,how & they function & when to use them & how to cut them.
Of course frame types & finishes. Wood vs metal. Appropriate (meaning also, safe) size for given work (width, rabbet depth etc) historical style, color & design. Compo, laminate, stacking, liners, fillets.
Those are afew of the nuts & bolts your customers will expect you to know about. You can find a lot of info on this stuff. Then of course there's the more esoteric & subtle arts of unique & interesting design & decorative techniques & ideas that can set you apart. Lots of articles on those too.
Picture Framing Magazine, Decor, PPFA (PMA, are they still joined at the hip?)
Aside from good color & design sense framing is mostly knowlege & experience combined with common sense. Of course getting into this business may show a lack of the latter from the get go. Sort of a conundrum.
 
Mikej, just got back into town.

I checked the mail box, no money.

PPFA hasn't contacted me about someone attending from Charlton Productions.

I find that after offering you a chance to save $99, you have decided that I'm just an "A-hole"..... well, you have just joined a small select club. Welcome to their club. Maybe one of them would be more than happy to hold your attitude.

I for one don't have time. I have two articles to write, four classes to polish, and review the new criterian for Judging. The board at the shop is full of things that only I do, and that all needs to be done before March 1st. And if that wasn't enough, I start Jury duty on Monday.

So you're fired.
 
Wow

Hi Mike,

Give me a call. I'd love to talk framing with you and want to hear more about what your objectives are.

Truth is, there are numerous options available to you and each has it's pros and cons.

You can also find info at my website, www.pictureframingschool.com.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Paul Cascio
860-940-9262
 
Create a Post
Back
Top