Trimming the edges off a needlepoint

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Natalya Murphy

Natalya Murphy

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Posts
478
Loc
Nebraska
Do you think it's acceptable to trim off excess fabric from a needepoint or canvas after it's been blocked/pinned/stretched? I always thought the extra fabric should be left intact since it's part of the piece brought in for framing. But a discussion with a framer yesterday revealed that he cuts off the extra after blocking and stretching because it's just waste material. He also mentioned that when he wrapped canvases at the last frame shop he worked, they would trim off any excess canvas from the back rather than folding it in.

What say ye?
 
Most of the time, I don't have enough fabric (counted cross stitch kits are the worst), so I sew additional fabric to the piece before stretching the needlework. All my repeat needlework customers know that if there is too much fabric, usually on one side, I will trim the excess off before sewing the additional fabric on. Then when stretched, I lace through my fabric instead so I am not hurting their fabric. On canvas art, I fold over if there is enough canvas on all sides, if not I trim.
 
I would trim off excess canvas, but always leave just enough in case the canvas ever has to be removed & restretched. The only exception to trimming would be if it's a "known" artist or valuable piece. You can always check with the customer.
 
Natalya Murphy said:
Do you think it's acceptable to trim off excess fabric from a needepoint or canvas after it's been blocked/pinned/stretched? ...What say ye?
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No. If the creator of the artwork considered it to be waste, he would have removed it while the art was still in his possession.
 
Regards fabric - x stitch, embroidery etc that you stretch by lacing - why on earth would you want or need to trim once it is laced?

Sometimes, but rarely, there is simply too much fabric margin - it overlaps at the back of the support and you just cannot lace it without trimming it. Well, I suppose you could actually but why fill the frame back with bulk caused simply by the stitcher using a piece of fabric unneccesarily large?

Excess serves no purpose - unless there is some sort of provenance on or within it - it's not like the stitcher/artist is going to want to un-stretch the thing and work it into a larger painting/embroidery/whatever.

Just the same as, say, a 7x5" watercolour in the centre of a 30x 24" piece of paper and you want to put a 3 1/2" mat around that 7x5" - you HAVE to trim the excess or it won't fit in the goddam frame!

But it needs explaining to the customer and any trimming is done with their knowledge and consent.
 
Not in MY shop. I fold over to shorten the part laced if necessary. Needleworkers are almost as "thrifty" as framers, so it rarely happens anyway. And a 2 x 2 piece of art in the center of a 30 x 30 piece of paper? Please refer to one of my posted signs:

It is ILLEGAL for anyone other than the artist to trim or otherwise permanently alter artwork. Howard's also will not drymount old, foreign or otherwise hard-to-replace work.

It's so easy to merely point to the sign. (nicely framed with a fancy Wizard mat, of course)
 
EllenAtHowards said:
And a 2 x 2 piece of art in the center of a 30 x 30 piece of paper? Please refer to one of my posted signs:

It is ILLEGAL for anyone other than the artist to trim or otherwise permanently alter artwork. Howard's also will not drymount old, foreign or otherwise hard-to-replace work.
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So - how exactly do you deal with a piece of 30x30 paper that needs to go inside a (say) 10x10 frame/mat?

Ask the customer to trim it to (say) 9x9 - do it youself with consent or ......?

And how does the same problem relate to work on fabric - I mean - c'mon - someone wants to do a design - they have piece of fabric that is massively too large - but that is what they choose to work it on - that's all - had they had a smaller piece, they would have used that, but they didn't. Framing the dammed thing didn't come into it - not their concern.

The important bit is the worked bit - no-one's going to mess with that!

No-one's altering any artwork - just what it is painted/stitched on.

Anyway - I just wish I had the problem more often - too often stuff has already been trimmed too much and sometimes in a way that actually WILL decrease value - e.g. engraving platemark gone.

And what about the artist who stretches his paper by wetting it and then pinning and taping it to a board - using brown acid laden gummed tape?

You get the thing with an inch of this carp around the paper edges, but if it is a fair distance away from the important bit, what do you do? painstakingly remove the stuff and treat the paper edges to de-acidise them, and charge for that, whether you so it yourself or (in my case) pay someone to - or do what the artist should have - cut the carp off- still leaving a nice margin?

Can you imagine the thing turning up on antiques roadshow 150 years hence?

"Oh - yes - an original Bloggs - let's just rip it out of its frame (NOT!) - OH NOOOOOO - only 2" of paper margin around this watercolour and no brown tape - we all know Bloggs used 3" and brown tape - how do we know it's a real Bloggs anymore.

Bloody paranoia
 
In the case that triggered my conversation with the framer, it was one of those kit needlepoints. Finished size of the art was just over 6" x 6" on a canvas just over 8" x 8". He had stapled the needlepoint about an inch to the outside of the art all around to stretch it and it was getting a 2" mat, so the canvas was just peeking out from under the matboards. He was going to trim off about 1/2" all around, then tape the top mat to the canvas area with ATG (that was a separate discussion...). So it's not like we were dealing with a lot of excess, and if the work had been pinned or laced instead, it wouldn't have even been an issue (see separate thread about lacing vs. pinning or stapling).

If it's not OK to trim the excess whitespace from art on paper, as in Robo's example, then why is it OK to trim art on fabric? One could argue that the white border around a l/e print is also unnecessary excess, and yet I wouldn't dream of trimming it -- I'd design the mat large enough to accommodate the full size. So what makes needlework so different? In both cases the "canvas" is part of the art.
 
I stand with you Natalya. Anyone who does any art with a needle knows that it deserves at least as much respect as a painting. In fact, I venture to say that, as a general rule, needleart takes 10 times as long to produce as art produced with paint and brush.

Any needleart that gets mats also gets what I think of as a Donut Mount. That is to say that the work is stretched ( almost exclusively lacing in our shop) around a center cutout of acid free foamboard with a ragboard top. That way, not only is there a place to attach the mats to the surface without putting adhesive on the needlework, but the needlework is more than 1" away from the rabbet of the frame. If there are no mats and the work is going to touch the frame, then the frame gets lined with a barrier, just like other fine art.

And, yeah, Robo... no work of art on 30 x 30 paper is going into a 10 x 10 frame at Howard's. Sorry. Our policy.
 
We never trim; fold, leave wide margins or whatever to use up the material..Have seen more than enough that we have had to stitch linen to for adequate margins for lacing. We always lace after using pins for temporary attachment.

Jack Cee
 
I think we have a problem with communication here.

Since we all know I am now a consumer and no longer a Framer , take this with a grain ( or two) of salt. But i did frame a lot of cross stitch in my years framing. and a few paper born pieces of art also.

I under stand the premise that what ever the ARTIST intended a piece to look like ( includeing the MARGINS) should be respected. In that vain I have seen some very small images on rather large pieces of paper or canvas. Quiet often those works are imprinted with things like copyright registration info , signatures ,plate embossing, ETC. on the bitter edges. There is hardly any doubt that these works were intended to be seen with those large blank white margins around them and that design of the artist has to be preserved.

But then we come to needle work, and some times the same is true but there normally is some indication of that intention just like the already mentioned paper/Paint on Canvas works.

However I have seen a lot of Cross stitchers who had no idea how to calculate the amount of Fabric required for the stitched design and any desired empty spaces for AFFECT with a adequit margin for finishing ( normally about 3 inches all the way around, or about 6 additional inches of fabric in length and width), and as such just started stitching on whatever piece of fabric in the appropriate count they had. That could be a piece that left as little as a fraction of an inch or one that had more excess than was used to complete the work.

Along with this most of these same stitchers would hoard every scrap of fabric even those 2-3 inches wide. Still more troubling is that whatever mounting method employed if you had a lot of excess fabric on the rear deeper and deeper rabbeted frames could be necessary or even slight shadow box type mouldings. It should be easy to see that any stitcher who might hoard scraps of fabric will not be looking for framing materials that probably will ADD additional/ unnecessary cost to their Framing.

That said it very often would be seen by these same stitchers as a service from the Framer to ask if they would like their excess trimmed off ( leaving adequit FINISHING Margins ) and returned to them while suggesting less expensive framing materials due to the less bulky mounting.

In fact it was very common in our shop for some of these same Mathematically and measuring challenged Stitchers to ask Marie to do the calculating for them and maybe even "CENTER " the work on their fabric so as to get the most use of what they had or purchased.

So while I do understand that some ARTIST ( both stitched and Non) fully intend some work to be seen with large blank margins still others ( mostly stitchers but some paper born also) just poorly place their work and leave a lot of WASTED material that they value and appreciate being saved.

In a nutshell ASK and ASSUME NOTHING . Also even the Best Guidelines have exceptions and they all need consideration if you want to please ALL your customers.

The OPINION of a NOW customer that once was a FRAMER>

BUDDY
 
It's the artist's decision to make, not the framer's.

RoboFramer said:
...Excess serves no purpose - unless there is some sort of provenance on or within it - it's not like the stitcher/artist is going to want to un-stretch the thing and work it into a larger painting/embroidery/whatever...
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Perhaps, but we dare not assume anything. This actually happened in my shop some years ago:

A frequent cross stitcher and occasional framing customer brought in a cross stitch that was much smaller than its canvas -- I can't remember the exact dimensions, but it was something like 12" square needle art centered on 24" square canvas.

She was very concerned about preservation of the artwork and specifically, the mounting technique. We ended up using the Newberry method (pinch-fit between a double 8-ply mat and its fallout, as I recall). She was adamant about leaving the extra canvas on the artwork, too, most of it covered by a window mat.

That needle art was created as a gift for someone in her family, with the intention that future generations would take it out of the frame and add to its borders years later, then put it back with a larger window in the mat.
 
Is It just me or aren't some of these replies ignoring each other?

Not to single out Jim or John or anyone else but the more I read the replies of this thread the more I keep wondering if each of us is reading and understanding what I am?

I just read in Jim's reply ,.....Excess serves no purpose - unless there is some sort of provenance on or within it - it's not like the stitcher/artist is going to want to un-stretch the thing and work it into a larger painting/embroidery/whatever...( from John's reply)



Perhaps, but we dare not assume anything. Too which Jim responded.

IMO John was speaking about the excess that the stitcher would allow ( "UN-STRETCHED or folded in the rear and never used) Not something specifically designed and determined for future use and so warned when brought in.

But what is also understood with out saying is that what ever John or anyone else might trim is determined by the stitcher with NO ASSUMPTIONS from the framer either PRO or CON.( think that was said before also.)

The problem IMO is that while there is a very good reason not to just arbitrarily assume that WE KNOW BEST what the intentions of any artist ( stitched or otherwise) are there are some exceptions to the NEVER TRIM ANY WORK ,"GUIDELINE" and when exercised with normal intelligence probably will make customers who don't have special design features or future usages for extra blank cloth only too happy to save EXCESS material for their next project or just for decreasing the size of the framing materials and thereby the unnecessary additional cost unneeded.

But what is amazing to me and some what confusing ( as I suspect it may be to other consummers) is why all well intended Framers don't realize the motives and intentions of others instead of sighting "GUIDELINES" that probably none propose to ignore and all understand the reason for having.

BUDDY
 
Jim Miller said:
...we dare not assume anything.

A frequent cross stitcher and occasional framing customer brought in a cross stitch that was much smaller than its canvas -- I can't remember the exact dimensions, but it was something like 12" square needle art centered on 24" square canvas.

She was adamant about leaving the extra canvas on the artwork, too, most of it covered by a window mat.
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So - there endeth the assumption!
 
On x stitches made from kits - the equivalent on paper is paint-by-numbers.

Not belittling it - I sell shedfuls of the stuff and some is not for the faint hearted - you get a 'Lavender and Lace' or 'Butternut Road' piece on a high count linen and 'stitch by numbers' or not - it's taken painstaking skill.

With all the best kits, the fabric supplied will alow a decent margin for stretching - as long as the work is centred properly - but if the customer does not like the fabric colour, type or count (Holes per inch - or HPI) - they come to someone like me - and buy what they want - if it's off the roll, that roll will be a yard wide and that's how we usually sell it - they can use offcuts for whatever.

If it's a standard size such as (I love this term) a fat quarter and the kit was bought here - we'll swap the fabric FOC.

But some do not bother cutting the piece bought by the yard, they just use it and that's how you, as a framer, get it.

Would you refuse a job, because you won't trim it, with full informed consent, just because I sell linen by the yard?

Delete needlework/linen; add watercolour/paper and I ask the same question.
 
RoboFramer said:
Would you refuse a job, because you won't trim it, with full informed consent, just because I sell linen by the yard?

Delete needlework/linen; add watercolour/paper and I ask the same question.
Click to expand...

No, I would not refuse the job. But, and this is a big but, if any trimming is going to be done, the scissors will be in the hands of the customer. Informed consent or not, it's not my place to alter the artwork.

And in regards to your previous post, no bloody way is a 30x30 piece of art going into a 10x10 frame.
 
I believe the secret to this is what Robo has stated as "received full informed consent". However, I personally have in the past turned away work rather than to risk even the slightest chance of making an error which would result in a bad day for QD. In this case, I would never cut a persons work (yes even those outer portions that are well beyond the limits of what I think they will use) without full disclosure first, and even then, if it is reasonable I would fold, wrap, or something to include the piece as it was given to me. All that said, I do have customers who rely on me to trim things and make them look good. You simply have to know your customer, and make sure that if you don't, or even if you do, you ask.. It's all about communication....
 
FramerDave said:
And in regards to your previous post, no bloody way is a 30x30 piece of art going into a 10x10 frame.
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I agree - all I am saying is that unpainted paper is, mostly, not art, and if anyone thinks it is, please may I sell you some.
 
I am amazed.

I normally am one of the strongest opponents of taking chances , and for the most part still am ( Unnecessarily and unsubstantiated) . However I am beginning to belive some here are confusing the fear of being sued or accused of wrong doing with not having a proper knowledge of what they are working with.

As I stated before ,if an original work is designed to have very large blank margins and changing this would alter the Copyrighted design and there by depreciate the Value of the work 99.9% of right thinking framers would not TRIM anything. However the material and paper being discussed here has not integral part of any original design and with assurances of the Stitcher/ Customer no future use of the blank space is intended or desired. Quoting the Guideline is IMHO showing that you really don't understand what you are framing and/or what your customer has told you after you properly asked the correct questions about excess material that as John and I and maybe QD have told you we sold and stitchers often misposition on larger sections of a given fabric that has been purchased aside from even a pre-assembled KIT.

This is growing into another MYTHCONCEPTION and and very good example of how little some know about the Nuances and Materials of Cross Stitching and maybe other Needle work and even privately done paper art.

BUDDY

QUESTION do any see a differance between aWater Color on cast paper with large white margins bought from a well known artist being trimed and a privately done work for their own appreciation from the same artist who left some rough ecesses on which the ARTIST ask the framer "Can you even up that paper so as to allow it to fit in a different frame at my agreed Instruction?

Now consider that as John said most Cross stitch and some other Needle work patterns are akin to paint by number kits for personal use and the fabric is often bought sepreately at the stitchers choice and frequently in measurements TOO large to accomodate the given design. Additionally these same stitchers DO use the left over scraps and excesses to do all sorts of secondary projects . And many of them as John and I mentioned can't even positin the design to afford the best use of their seperately purchased fabric and allowing a proper amout of excess for finishing at their instruction may just save them money and furnish them a useable remnant for their next project. Do you see any problem still? If so maybe you shouldn't do anything that isn't clearly spelled out step by step in a fully written set of instructions.

ONLY Problem I can see no such set of instruction exsit for ANY form of your craft .

Come to think about it as John and I mentioned we often , if not always , cut the fabric these same customers used from an even LARGER bolt of the same ( Marie and I even cut smaller segments - Fat quarters which still were often too large). Maybe WE should refuse to cut that also and only sell what the manufacturers sell since we may be altering their desires?

BUDDY
 
Reread my post and agree my position is somewhat unclear. See if I can make it clearer..

1. When designing any framing project my first goal is to know and fully understand what my customer wants. This means that I have to first get to know the customer a little. If someone new comes in off the street and asks me to cut up his Monet I'm definitely not going to do it, nor would I trim His/Her needlework without a full clear discussion of what is going to happen. I'm reading that Buddy and John both sometimes make these decisions based on their own perception of what's needed and what is excessive. I would not want to do that UNLESS it was a very old familiar customer who I have worked with for years, and even then I'd probably still ask. Asking takes such little effort and the communication can save such big heartaches. I've learned over the years that often people have different perspectives regarding what they want, what they think is adequate, and what they think is excess. It could very well be that the person's granny left all that material on all her work and that was a signature mark they left. It could also be a family tradition or part of the purpose as Jim witnessed with his customer. You simply don't know unless you ask.

2. I prefer not to cut/trim/alter any customer's work or anything else brought to me in any way if at all possible. Does that mean that I will not? No. That means I prefer not to. If it will keep them from going to an AOS Store or even the shop down the street, I will do it, but only after a lengthy enough discussion that I fully understand what the customer wants and have a high confidence level that I will not screw it up.

3. Usually it's not the intended alterations that get us, but the DOH moments, as we've read on various posts here on the G. The small photo mounted under the big one, the scissors under the poster in the dry mount machine. These careless blunders are what usually cause problems. We just need to remember that when we accept any item from our customer, they have put enough value in it to pay us a significant amount of money ( at least I hope so) to frame this in such a way as to preserve (in most cases), enhance, and display the item. It is our job to care and to know the customer well enough to understand what they want and to give that to them. IMHO understanding your customer is a huge part of being a professional framer and the biggest part of our job.
 
We continue to fail to communicate.

QD I obviously have misunderstood your point of view and your comments , but not nearly as badly as you have mine.

You posted ,"I'm reading that Buddy and John both sometimes make these decisions based on their own perception of what's needed and what is excessive."

There couldn't be anything further from what I was trying to say. I can't speak for John ( as I thought I understood you) but I think he is saying the same thing. I have long felt that try as I may, many didn't understand what I was writeing. This may just prove it, or that some don't read things ( like Framing GUIDELINES) objectively and insert their own personal prejudices and feelings.

I and I dare say John never "make these decisions based on their own perception ." However I did use that INFORMED perception after Um teen years in the Needle work business and attending more Needlework Classes and trade shows than I have framing formed the PERCEPTION and UNDERSTANDING of WHY cutting fabric is correct with the"UNDERSTOOD and INFORMED APPROVAL OF THE ORIGINAL ARTIST/STITCHER before doing anything to their work .This is very similar to what you said is you reasoning for your actions with the exception of the fact that I feel the loss of the profit or fear that a AOS or BB will get the business has little if anything to do with my motivation. I am motivated by the feeling that after all those years of attending Needlework classes and Framing classes I fully understand the INTENTION of the GUIDELINES and not just the wording. I fully understand that the primary reasoning is to preserve the original form and value of the work as intended by it's original artist/ stitchor . And since the customer that I am speaking to is the same ,NO ONE is better able to say what that is . Further more the suggestion ( not DECISION) to save the excess is left to the same artist/ stitch er after carefully determining WHY there is such an excess and what THET wish to be done with it.

However having sold Cross stitch Aida and other fabrics for the same number of years and also seen FIRST handily the very thing John and I have described ( where the fabric purchased is far larger than required or needed and the Some stitchers can't even position the work on it much less know where to cut the excess) We have countlessly done so for them as we have even positioned the starting point for some and done the math for them to determine the smallest usable swatch of fabric they can buy to accomplish what they desire to stitch ( and YES in doing so we have had to absorb some losses for errors made by ourselves and even miscommunications by the uniformed stitcher.). Still with all this assistance very frequently the purchased fabric is far more than needed and leaving the excess necessitates more costly and larger framing than should be needed . HENCE the trimming of the excess ( at their understanding and approval) saves waste in fabric , framing and work for the framer . I should also mention here that leaving the excess until completion instead of cutting the fabric to size at time of purchase. often saved some works from being mispositioned too close to the edge with the very best and implicit instruction from us.

I further think some understanding for why the guideline of"DO NOT ALTER or TRIM" needs to be clarified . As you so stated in you MONET analogy ( but not just for such Classical master pieces) no original art should be altered or defaced from it's original form with out the approval ( probably in writeing ) from the ORIGINAL artist. However the alterations to the substrate or fabric in the discussion here doesn't alter the art or it's value in any way. In fact it may enhance it to some degree. ( Of course that is not the case as was OBVIOUSLY sighted in JIM MILLER'S example as the stitcher so warned.)Furthermore the process of cutting fabric and measuring the same to suit the stitching of Cross Stitch was done on a daily basis in our shop not only by my Very knowledgeable and needlework mastery certified wife Marie But myself who attended classes on a mired of topics not limited to the History of needlework design . But I can assure you that what is being discussed here would have been understood by the newest of needlework shop owners and the avoidance of it makes me wonder just how little some understand about the NEEDLEART that they are Framing.

I say this with the full understanding and reservation that there are some Like Ellen that have eminently more training than myself who choose to feel and work differently. However I dare say that even Ellen would tell you that her reasoning is that more is better and Safer but not totally necessary and what John and I are suggesting ,with the full instruction and understanding and approval of the original stitcher, violates NO Framing or Needleart Guidelines, since it does as ELLEN has often suggested "DO NO HARM".

Hopefully this clarifies MY position and reasoning even Better than you have previously thought and maybe has caused some to re-evaluate what they thought previously , but not just about ME but why you listen to all guidelines.

BUDDY
 
Some more WORDS of wisdom to help

While I realize this isn't exactly the same discussion being had here it is very related and it might be more exceptable coming from a CONSERVATOR about a work of art that isn't needlework . However despite it 's dealing with DECKLEING an edge of an existing work of an Artist it still amounts to "TRIMMING" original art with the consent of the oriinal artist and is being discussed by a very knowledgable CONSERVATOR>>>>>>




When one is working with the artist, I think it's ok to change the edges.

I recently trimmed the edges of an edition, at the written request of the artist. I practiced first, removing a narrower band of paper than would ultimately be desired.

Here is the technique I used, based on watercutting Japanese paper.

-using a straight edge, score a line along the paper where you want to tear it. I use a bamboo "hera", but the tip of a bamboo skewer works too.

-straight edge still in place, brush water along the score line.

-straight edge still in place, repeatedly score the now damp score line, until the paper is compact and "bruised" - kind of translucent.

-straight edge still in place (and held down heavily) pull the paper strip away. If it is "ready", it will pull away nicely and easily.

Rebecca



This was extracted from the archives after doing a search for "TRIMMING ART". It was found in "how do you Deckle the edge of paper" by Chuck T back in Nov. of 2003

However I am sure there are more and maybe more applicable . I also did a search for GUIDELINES and found many opinions that guidelines are merely suggested directions and not Policable Laws.

But more importantly the cutting of the extra fabric from a cross stitch work with the approval of a stitcher isn't IMO the same concern as altering an original work since it would look as the orignator wanted it to at it's conception and you are only assiting them in acheiving that design, due to their inability or lack of time.

Are these any Better and more exceptable helps?

BUDDY
 
Buddy,
Please do not take extreme exception to my comments earlier. I was merely pointing out the appearance that could be read into some of the earlier comments. I do not believe you or John would ever do anything to harm your customers work and realize that both of you would have this understanding/knowledge before doing any such alteration. However, I would not want some newbie/rookie/less experienced framer to go and just randomly start hacking at my needlework because they thought it was a framers perogative and all that material is just excess anyway. My comment is that we simply must communicate completely and effectively amongst ourselves and with our customers and leave nothing to be assumed...
 
What I think isn't the most important thing.

QD if I seem to be taking personal exception to this discussion I regret my continued inability to express my point clearly. I did think my explanation was misunderstood. However I was trying to say that the reason it may be was far more important than if I did anything right or what was thought of me since I am no longer a framer .

What is totaly amazing to me is that it definetly appears that some are missing the points that John and I are making as to WHY it would be acceptable to trim cross stitch fabric and maybe even the paper on which a painted work was done. This is even more frustrating since John, I and many of the others we have quoted have without any doubt said none of this should be done without the fully informed consent of the original artist / stitcher of the work being trimmed. I even acknowledged as did John that Jim Miller's example was a totaly different question since even with it not having any current relation to the art being framed it was clearly expressed that the blank area would in the future by the Customer at the apprasial of it's needs.

IMHO this is a perfect example of how the letter of a guideline becomes a requirement when their are clearly extenuating circumstances that alter what is being said and only the exact phrase is even considered by many reading theese same guidelines , with out ever understanding what the intention for the guidline is.

I keep referring to this point of view as a mythconception ( not just by you but many) and I think Rebecca's reply to how to deckle the edge of an existing painting by consulting the original artist clearly says that under the Right informed circumstances even altering a non needle art work can be correctly done in the eye's of a very qualified Conservator.

However the removal of EXCESS Unused fabric from a cross stitched work doesn't begin to approach the caveats that accompany Rebecca's changes. However before anyone jumps in here ,I fully agree and have said previously that any work cross stitch or even Finger paintings can be irreplaceable and Valuable to it's owner as that MONET you mentioned.

But if we are going to be honest here those two examples ( a Monet and trimming unwanted excess fabric)aren't in the same league. Now to your latest concern :"However, I would not want some newbie/rookie/less experienced framer to go and just randomly start hacking at my needlework because they thought it was a framers prerogative and all that material is just excess anyway."

I don't see anything I or John said that would even vaguely infer that was OK. In fact I know I said repeatedly that no alterations of any kind to any work should be done by any framer with out fully discussing what you were suggesting and it's benefits and consequences, as does all Framing Guidelines I know of and many quotes like Rebecca's verify IMO.

But the repeated insistance that no trimming of any kind can be achieved to any surface being framed with the full knowledge and understanding of it's originator is an even more misleading post/ reply than what you may be worried about as far as I am concerned. And I think it rates right up there with many of the already discussed Framing Mythconceptions despite how widely it may be agreed with among some framers.

And less I seem to be defending my personal framing integrity , make no mistake I AM NO LONGER A FRAMER , but I do know a lot of what framers should know even with many myths and misinterpetations , but especially about NEEDLEART.

But you need not worry about my Framing practices being extremely questioned. Nor does any current framer have to adhere to my advise, but I am offering it in a true spirit of being helpful.
So in the words of a much more knowledgeable NeedleArt Framer "Take what you can use and the rest ............."LOL
BUDDY
 
1. We have an artist local to us that sells weird stuff for lots of money, what he does is paste a huge canvas to the wall and covers it in thick oil paint from a bucket - just one color.

Then he gets a bit of 4x2" batten - the same height as the canvas, and randomly knocks chunks out of one long edge on the corner, he lays that corner at one edge of the canvas, presses and then walks from L - R, giving the batten a little jig up or down here and there, sometimes a large jig - the result looks a bit like a huge earthquake print-out (seismograph???) but lots of jagged lines, not just one.

But this one time (i- ---- ---p) he pulls out his 6" steel comb to do his hair and comes over all weird - he just paints a 10x8" square in the centre of this 12x8 FOOT piece of canvas, and does the batten thing with his comb, after removing a few teeth (not his - the comb)

His very first miniature - this will sell for at least £12,000 ($24,000). He brings the whole canvas in to me - he's thinking of really making a feature of this thing with at least 24" around it.

He has a phobia of sharp instruments - (c'mon the guy's an atrist - this is his weird thing - look at Van Goch fer Chrissakes) what do I do, dear agony aunt???



2. I am about to frame an original design for a comic from the 60's - guy that brought it in is a total anorak (nerd?) - in a nice way (he has money!)

These things are very hard come by - I know this from the anorak's enthusiastic gum-beating (I'd just done the knot above the noose and was about to test the strength of the hook above me!)

This is the original from the very first issue - the auction house chucked in a copy of the first comic for free - which I'm framing separately, which is nice!

It's a montage of originals - usually they would re-use parts, such as the comic title, but couldn't with this one, as it had a 'No 1" flash - etc etc etc - so - just one of many exciting reasons that this thing was so valuable.

It has an acetate over it, with 'free inside' etc painted on, that is hinged with masking tape. I could temporarily tape it at the bottom, remove that masking tape and replace it with something much MUCH better - NO NAILS (kidding)

Nooooooo! - the artist put that there, anyway, it may move - and if it does, even by half a miilimetre - just, just Noooooooo!

OK - could I overlap that masking tape with something better, because it WILL give up.

Oh - OK then

Now then - the thing is painted on a board with an 'acid free' surface paper, but the board core is brown.

I could get that surface paper removed and ...............

The guy starts shuddering - Nooooooooo!

OK - OK - deep breaths, we won't do that.

The design goes to about an inch below the top and sides of the board but there is about 8" of blank board below, and at the very bottom of that board - and just below where the acetate ends, are the words, in pencil "Print at 32%"

Anorak loves that - should it be covered or revealed though - may mess with the mat margins. Trimming is not even thought about. He's having it revealed

Hope that puts what I would and would not do into perspective.

I lied about #1

But such an artist does exist - not local to me - his stuff really does sell for $24000
 
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