Touch Up, Frame Repair & Finish Products

[CAGallery]

Lately it seems that so many of the jobs we do require some sort of frame repair whether it be adjusting the finish to match our corner sample, fixing a damage or compo that chips or even filling in a corner that is not joining as well as we would like it to. I realize that the different finish problem probably doesn't apply to those who solely sell length or have a limited selection or are more of a volume shop but to a shop like ours doing a lot of chops and with customers who are so design conscious it is a huge problem.


It seems that the putty of yesteryear, the rub and buffs and acrylic paint jobs are just not enough anymore. So we have been looking at the EZ Fix & Fill set, the products on the Liberon website, the magicwoodrepair.com website and others.

And how far should a frame shop go? We do not manufacture our own mouldings and don't really want to have to mess with the finish. But with the problems we are having lately it seems that it might be easier to invest a little into such type of products if they work without it taking a tremendous amount of time. It beats repacking a frame chop or length, calling for a call tag, repacking, having it picked up and then replaced, unpacking again, following up on the credit etc.

We would love to hear comments about any of these products as far as ease of use, practicality etc. or suggestions for other products that may work better.

 

[auntiesarahjayne]

THANK YOU!

I really appreciate you posting this. I have been thinking these same words and I couldn't have said it better.

I did get some ebony timbermate to try. works great on distressed blacks, but dries fast, and has a soft black finish, so not as great on the basic blacks.

With the increase warped mouldings I have been receiving... I've been wondering how far I need to go in wood working and finishing. Maybe Baer needs to start teaching weekend long woodworking 101. or maybe a cruise?

Seriously, I also look forward to other answers.

-Sarah

 

[SusanG]

Chavie,

Have you tried Baroque Art-Gilders Paste? I got mine from United. You can mix colors just like corner putty. The guy in charge ( I think it's Dave) who does the demos at trade shows is very receptive to hearing from us and is quite helpful.

www.gilderspaste.com

Susan

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

I hope you don't mind my jumping in here and I wouldn't say anything if I weren't so sure about EZ-Fix & Fill. Since the Atlanta show we have sold hundreds of kits and one of the most amazing things about it is that there have been zero complaints. The only calls I have received are calls from framers who called to say how much they like it and about how they were able to save a moulding that came in damaged or fix something they thought they would have to scraped. The biggest advantage is that the product is heated and hardens instantly and doesn't rub off like the putty that is so widely used. Baer Charlton has been working with it for for a while now, and if I'm not mistaken, really likes it. If I can answer any questions, please call. EZ-Fix & Fill may not work on everything, but it sure makes the job of closing corners, filling in mismatched mitres, ragged edges or nail holes easier on most of the moulding out there.

 

[SusanG]

Gilders Paste is more for altering a finish. I don't use it for frame repair.

Seems as if there are two things going on here-corner filling/ding repair and changing finishes.

Susan

 

[CLovely]

This used to be a big problem for us; we do 40 - 60 chops a week. We mostly solved it by eliminating most vendors and sticking only with those who deliver a good chop. For us that is LJ out of Boston, Roma and Nurre (although they get sloppy during the holiday rush. The other cange we made last year was to underpin AND vise everything. This sounds like it may take more time but in return we hardly ever have to putty corners, which is very labor intensive.



We use and like all the Liberon products and have started to use Pat Kotonaur' stuff.

Karl.

 

[RParrish]

I have tried the Liberon crayon set and really like it over wood putty. High recommendations here.

 

[CAGallery]

I did get some ebony timbermate to try. works great on distressed blacks, but dries fast, and has a soft black finish, so not as great on the basic blacks.

Sarah, We also tried the Timbermate and had the same results as you did. Someone mentioned that it needed to have a finish on it since it is water soluble. I think lemon oil was mentioned but not sure.

With the increase warped mouldings I have been receiving... I've been wondering how far I need to go in wood working and finishing.

I would rather not have to do it but lately it seems we have no choice.

Seems as if there are two things going on here-corner filling/ding repair and changing finishes.

Yes, it is two separate things so let's separate the suggestions for these products:

FOR REPAIRS: EZ Fix and Fill, Liberon Crayon - I am curious as to how these products differ and how they differ from the products on magicwoodrepair.com. Pat, maybe you can explain it to me? I was actually planning to see you at the Decor Expo and then when you canceled out I decided not to go. I know that you are still having the special through March 31 so we have to make a decision very soon.


There are a lot of products on the Liberon website - crayons, wax sticks, earth prigments etc. Which ones are being used by framers and what has given the best results?

FOR CHANGING FINISHES: Gilders paste - Susan what have you used this for?

We don't have an unlimited budget for all these products but would like to assemble those that will work best in a frame shop.

 

[Sister]

I hope you don't mind my jumping in here and I wouldn't say anything if I weren't so sure about EZ-Fix & Fill. Since the Atlanta show we have sold hundreds of kits and one of the most amazing things about it is that there have been zero complaints. The only calls I have received are calls from framers who called to say how much they like it and about how they were able to save a moulding that came in damaged or fix something they thought they would have to scraped. The biggest advantage is that the product is heated and hardens instantly and doesn't rub off like the putty that is so widely used. Baer Charlton has been working with it for for a while now, and if I'm not mistaken, really likes it. If I can answer any questions, please call. EZ-Fix & Fill may not work on everything, but it sure makes the job of closing corners, filling in mismatched mitres, ragged edges or nail holes easier on most of the moulding out there.

I have seen Pat's demonstration on EZ-Fix & Fill and was very impressed. This is the best product I have seen for filling poorly mitred corners. We have been using corner weld to fill in the void and then Baroque Gilder's Paste to finish the corners. Nine times out of ten we can use the regular putty but even the few chops we have ordered from LJ have been bad lately. I am ordering from Pat today (tomorrow).

 

[Baer Charlton]

All I have to say about ALL of this is DECOR, May issue. G'nite.

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

This product is two different things in one. The fill sticks (24 colors), which are a cross between wax and plastic and will melt easily, sculpt with the special heating iron which is included in the kit. When melted the fill dries almost instantly. Once it dries it does not rub off, but can easily be removed if the color is wrong or for any other reason that you may wish to change.

There are also 18 stain stick colors that when seen on the ad might be mistaken for putty sticks. These are not putty and are not used to fill, only to color. Stain sticks are exactly that, stain, which will dry when used to cover scratches or recreating grain patterns. These stains can also be melted together with the fill to achieve any color, including metallic gold and silver.

With the larger kit we are also adding sample sizes in the stains of the primary colors, red, blue, yellow, orange, and green as a GWP. Small amounts of these primary colors can be melted together with the clear fill. You can also blend a bit of crayon with any of the fill colors to achieve just about any color imaginable. It works great for filling in mismatched miters, miter gaps, holes, gouges, and breakouts.

The instructional booklet that comes with the kits give suggestions on how to recreate washes within patterns, and as I said before, you may not be able to use it on every moulding out there, but it sure does make the job easier on most. Anyone should be able to use this product, but creativity is something that cannot be easily taught. The people who will benefit the most are those who go past simple instructions and add their own methods of use.

The attached pictures below are an example of what a one frame shop who was kind enough to send me these - before and after - examples of what he was able to do with EZ-Fix & Fill. Needless to say he was happy.

As far as the Leberon products are concerned, they have great products, but it is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. They have a variety of useful products that are very differnt in the method of use from what EZ-Fix & Fill offers. I am not looking to take anything away from their products, just to give the framer a few more options to make the job easier.

 

[janetj1968]

And how far should a frame shop go?

If you created the problem with a bad mitre that you cut yourself or you're stocking length and want to recapture 'waste' due to defects then go all the way. It's actually your fault its not up to par and your responsibility to make it look the best it can. But do you think your customer would want it if they knew what it really looked like? Repairs bother me...not necessarily because it looks bad, but because I know its there. Is your customer paying less because you've repaired their rail? Because you tried to save yourself money? How would you feel if you were on the receiving end of a patch?

Unless its a very meager repair (perhaps making a wood knot less noticeable or filling in a difficult corner pattern) you're degrading your quality. Fillers and the like are wonderful for touch ups. I have plenty of products for this purpose and its acceptable to do so. But there is a line between touchup and repair. Your conscience really does know which one it is, even if you're trying to convince yourself otherwise with the wonderful result of some of these amazing products. I don't say this to be critical. They are presented to show you the drastic differences they can make in the appearance of a mouldings. It doesn't mean the person selling the product would recommend you sell a damaged rail to your customer. There is a place in every frame shop for these products. It's how we use them that matters.

If I buy these products to modify the finishes for customers--they pay for it and they know what they're getting. That's a different ballgame.

In case of finish problems, bad mitres from vendors or defects on chops...these are the responsibility of the vendor. I won't waste my time or money on grossly imperfect items. A good frame needs very little touchup. I'll even correct a finish from a vendor as long as the vendor gives me a decent discount to make up for my labor and materials. But having a different finish isn't a flaw...its just a variation. My customer will still get what they paid for.

Personally, if I have the time I'd much rather reorder a rail I've messed up than try to pass along a patched piece to a customer. To me, its like driving a car once I know its been wrecked. I wouldn't want anything I love to be inside it.

 

[PaulSF]

I just got reamed out in an online review by a customer because his wife took a magnifying glass to a 32x40 black frame and noticed a place where I did a small touch-up. I guess the moral of the story is, you just have to order and reorder and reorder and reorder every single frame until you get it absolutely perfect, even if it ends up costing you money out of your pocket, because touch-ups are unacceptable.

 

[janetj1968]

I just got reamed out in an online review by a customer because his wife took a magnifying glass to a 32x40 black frame and noticed a place where I did a small touch-up. I guess the moral of the story is, you just have to order and reorder and reorder and reorder every single frame until you get it absolutely perfect, even if it ends up costing you money out of your pocket, because touch-ups are unacceptable.

No doubt, it does suck. It's what scares me about doing repairs.

I think we're all better off if we eliminate troublesome mouldings.

 

[Patricia Kotnour]

I guess the moral of the story is, you just have to order and reorder and reorder and reorder every single frame until you get it absolutely perfect, even if it ends up costing you money out of your pocket, because touch-ups are unacceptable.

Oh....that we could all afford the luxury of this kind time and perfection with every job. Good to dream about, but not very practical when dealing with deadlines and pickup dates.

The example shown above was from a man who didn't know that he had a problem with the length moulding until it was too late to return or reorder and still get the job out on time. I would guess that 75% or more of the shops do not purchase chops....they buy in length.....because it is much more cost effective. Buying in length and chopping your own has its downfalls that's for sure, but in most cases it is much more profitable.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should put out shoddy work to save money. I'm saying that quality workmanship is what everyone should strive for, but if you need to repair a moulding or fill a miter gap, you can do it and still maintain quality.

Even when buying chops there are often mismatched miters to deal with, and these fill sticks work great for this type of problem. The best part about it is that it doesn't shrink or rub off.

 

[osgood]

Well here we go again.......framers needing to invent new ways to fix problems created by manufacturers...WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO - WHY THE HECK DON'T THEY FIX THE PROBLEM IN THE FACTORY???

It is only in the past few years this problem has arisen because of modern materials that are unsuitable due to their brittleness.

I do not want to give my customers frames that required repairs or mitres being filled, or especially bogged up 'mismatched mitres'.
My customers are paying me for new and good quality frames, and that's what I intend to give them.

This is part of what I said last time this topic came up in the 'Black Glue' topic:

There are many mouldings available now where the modern 'compo' is way too brittle! Manufacturers have caused this problem, trying to make cheaper products, probably because framers are demanding cheaper products, but.....'we get what we pay for'....

I would much rather pay 15-20 even 30% more for a moulding that does not have brittle 'compo'. It would be far cheaper in the long term!

I just do not understand why framers should have to be seeking solutions to the problem, that has been created by the manufacturers in the first place. How many more threads are there going to be on this forum seeking new ways to overcome this nonsense?

It is quite insane IMHO that a whole new set of methods and materials need to be invented to overcome a problem that should be easily fixed by the chemists who make the 'compo'!

If framers keep buying this stuff and keep trying to cope with it, the problem can only get worse! It won't be long before the majority of mouldings will be coated with this brittle stuff and we will spend many man/woman hours every day trying to fix corners.

Stuff that, I've had enough and I'm not playing that game!

It seems to me that there are too many framers trying to work around these moulding quality issues and not enough who are refusing to accept them.

A deadline should not be an excuse for poor quality repaired and bogged up frames!

 

[PaulSF]

If people working with wood didn't encounter problems on a regular basis, there would be nobody selling wood filler, putty, touch-up markers, etc. These products exist not because we are all hacks, but because problems are inevitable. It's really easy to hide all that with closed corner frames, because all the wood filler can be masked by the finish that is laid over it.

 

[janetj1968]

It seems to me that there are too many framers trying to work around these moulding quality issues and not enough who are refusing to accept them.

I agree...and this was my whole point. If I have to repair moulding, I'd rather carp can those samples and buy moulding that doesn't have the problems. I've never seen repairs be so 'acceptable' as they are right now. It's like buying a new car with bondo. It's disappointing.

I have an artist who does a lot of framing in the same color mats and the same frame. He asked me once if I would use some moulding he'd bought in box and charge me for the labor to use his materials. In the end, he wound up paying more for the moulding he purchased and my labor than if he'd just used a better quality moulding. The next order, he defaulted to my recommendations.

I've also called customers before to tell them that the quality of the moulding they've picked wasn't up to my standards after it arrives. I've always found an acceptable solution within the same pricing range from another very happy-to-sell-to-me supplier. They always appreciate the extra effort.

In the case of this bad review Paul was talking about (and it could've been any of us who are accepting repairs as commonplace)... how much did selling an imperfect moulding wind up costing? We're fooling ourselves if we think patching mouldings is saving us money. It has a place...but only for touchups.

It just isn't worth it.

 

[PaulSF]

Well, this was a $350 job to replace a frame that had been damaged by UPS during shipping. I didn't do the original job. It was a jersey frame, using Nurre Caxton's Frisson as the moulding. Since that isn't deep enough, the frame was extended using an inexpensive black moulding. The inside had to be lined extensively with foamboard to provide an even surface.

So I had to take apart the frame that UPS had bashed up and remove the jersey and the board it was mounted on, as well as all the foam strips on the sides that were holding in the glass (which surprisingly had not broken). I had to build a new frame with Nurre Caxton moulding I ordered, and extend it out with black. Then I had to line the inside to create even sides. I did all this. Then the customer asked me to fix one of the design elements inside the frame (a Houston Astros star cut out of matboard, 3 layers), because the star points looked dinged up. He accused me of dinging them, but rather than argue, I just said I would do it (gee, you think that maybe it happened when UPS destroyed the original frame???), at my expense. It took me about 20 tries to get 3 layers that were the right size and alignment. Then I had to put it all back together again, and at some point during the assembly, disassembly, and reassembly, there was one area in the frame that needed an easy touch-up with a black marker. Who in the framing industry has never touched up a black frame with a black marker? Anyone? And this guy's wife spots it with her scanning electron microscope, one small touch-up in a 32x40 black frame.

So what am I supposed to do, order another 10-15 feet of Nurre Caxton moulding, and spend another 3 hours rebuilding the frame and lining the sides, and then refitting it all? Thereby eliminating any profit on this job? Or do a small touch-up with a black marker and preserving my profit margin?

Yes, I know this guy will never be back, and you know what? Good fracking riddance. Anyone that inspects a 32x40 frame with a scanning electron microscope will never be a profitable customer, unless he's willing to pony up cash for closed corner frames each and every time. I pity the poor framer he goes to next.

 

[Kirstie]

Two points here:

Osgood is right. Except for hardwoods, moulding quality is getting worse and worse. This was not the case previously. Touch ups were still needed, if only just to fill the nail holes! Of course wood requires some touch up, but we don't expect it to crumble! The touch up on most home building carpentry is just awful, same for furniture, but no one seems to complain about that.

Yelp is a crock. Lawsuits are a way of life for that company. I will never, ever again recommend Yelp when a happy customer asks me how they can refer me to others. I have had several annoyed customers who actually took the time to give me great detailed reviews only to have them taken down because Yelp told me that the customers were not "trusted yelpers" with dozens of reviews on the site. There are people who just like to complain publicly and it seems that this site attracts them. Meanwhile they keep asking me to advertise, teasing me with their offer to put my best review at the top. I wonder if all those good reviews would magically reappear if I did.

Sorry to hijack the thread. Carry on...

 

[CAGallery]

But do you think your customer would want it if they knew what it really looked like? Repairs bother me...not necessarily because it looks bad, but because I know its there. Is your customer paying less because you've repaired their rail? Because you tried to save yourself money? How would you feel if you were on the receiving end of a patch? Unless its a very meager repair (perhaps making a wood knot less noticeable or filling in a difficult corner pattern) you're degrading your quality.

I don't necessarily feel that a repair is a "patch". It depends what is involved. There is truly no perfection in almost anything and touch ups and repairs can add to quality rather than take away from it.

We have a very expensive bedroom set that got gouged when we moved into our house nearly 20 years ago. The movers sent in an expert furniture repairman and I was amazed at how perfect it looked after he was done. There was no way you could tell where it was. Well, maybe under a microscope! And here it is 20 years later and it is still perfect. And we don't feel cheated at all.

In case of finish problems, bad mitres from vendors or defects on chops...these are the responsibility of the vendor. I won't waste my time or money on grossly imperfect items. A good frame needs very little touchup. I'll even correct a finish from a vendor as long as the vendor gives me a decent discount to make up for my labor and materials. But having a different finish isn't a flaw...its just a variation. My customer will still get what they paid for.

Jan, I don't know the set up of your business but we sell a tremendous amount of chop from many, many vendors. We do stock length but only in a limited selction (for various reasons). It just doesn't make sense to complain each time we have a finish problem or a defect because of the time and effort involved. If we can fix something fairly easily with great results then we just do it. And if we can't then we do complain.

 

[CAGallery]

Well here we go again.......framers needing to invent new ways to fix problems created by manufacturers...WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO - WHY THE HECK DON'T THEY FIX THE PROBLEM IN THE FACTORY???

It seems to me that there are too many framers trying to work around these moulding quality issues and not enough who are refusing to accept them.

As far as working around these issues there really is not much of a choice. Things have changed in the moulding business. It is not only one vendor - it is most. So there are only a few options:

#1) Adapt to the times by offering a limited selection of moulding only and stock in deep quantity so that our stock absolutely matches our samples.

#2) Offer moulding from the very few manufacturers who are more consistent

#3) Adapt by becoming more knowledgeable about altering/repairs and continue to offer a broad selection to our design oriented clientele

OR

#4) Decide that we don't like the direction the business is taking and go out of this business.

Our business has an established clientele that expects certain things so option #1 will not work for us unless we want to develop a new customer base.

#2 doesn't leave us very many choices AND who is to say that a consistent vendor today remains consistent tomorrow?

That leaves us with either option #3 which we are trying and brought up in this thread or #4 which we feel like doing lately especially since moulding variations and inconsistencies became such a problem.

 

[janetj1968]

I pity the poor framer he goes to next.

You know, Paul...this is a totally different situation...and I see your logic now that you fully explained it.

This was a frame someone else sold to this lady that was damaged by UPS. You did your best to pull out as many salvageable elements as you could. No matter what when we do things like that there are elements we can't fully control. It had hidden labor, for one. Something like that is pretty much impossible to estimate until its torn down.

Given the fact that you'd already given them so many things, with so little profit...perhaps they should've accepted graciously such a minor imperfection.

If it had been me, I would've been tempted to give them a bill (even if they didn't pay it) for hidden labor to make them appreciate what I'd done.

 

[janetj1968]

It just doesn't make sense to complain each time we have a finish problem or a defect because of the time and effort involved. If we can fix something fairly easily with great results then we just do it. And if we can't then we do complain.

I guess you answered your own post!

 

[osgood]

It just doesn't make sense to complain each time we have a finish problem or a defect because of the time and effort involved. If we can fix something fairly easily with great results then we just do it. And if we can't then we do complain.

It makes perfect sense to me to complain about defective or poor quality materials. If we don't complain, then we will continue to be dished up defective and poor quality materials.
There seems to be a trend these days for manufacturers to have no quality control. The end user is the quality control.
If people stop complaining about bad quality, then quality will continue going down the drain.

If we don't complain then we will get exactly what we deserve! I refuse to participate in contributing to that!

 

[Luddite]

Just remember,The way some people find fault,you`d think there was a reward for it! And some people LIVE to complain,and can`t be pleased! L.

 

[CAGallery]

If people stop complaining about bad quality, then quality will continue going down the drain.

I absolutely agree with you and believe me we do more of our share of complaining. Of course most vendors will say that we are the ONLY ones complaining.

I still maintain that sometimes it just doesn't make sense. For example, today we received a fillet from a vendor in length for a specific framing job. It took several days to arrive.

We paid someone to work with the customer on designing the piece which included matching the fillet to the artwork and frame. We paid someone to process the order, order the fillet, unpack and check it in. Once unpacked we realized that the fillet was a different finish/color than the sample we had.

At that point would you suggest that we pay someone to call the company to complain, repack that fillet, have the package hang around until a call tag arrives for it, remember to give it to the UPS driver, wait a few days to get a new fillet, unpack the fillet again and follow up on receiving credit on the bookkeeping end? We could go through all of this only to...possibly go through the same thing all over again! At that point we would have to call the customer to ask if we could switch the fillet and spend time finding something appropriate or working with the customer yet again. Where is the profit in a job like that?

Instead one of our employees took that fillet and spent 15 minutes altering it to match our sample and it was taken care of. Of course it is not always simple or possible to do and we do complain when we have no choice.

Should this fillet have arrived completely different than our sample? Absolutely not. Will we drop this vendor? In all likelihood not. Why? Because this has been happening with the majority of the vendors we deal with in the past year or so. And our vendors are the same vendors you are all dealing with!

 

[DennisNYC]

I just got reamed out in an online review by a customer because his wife took a magnifying glass to a 32x40 black frame and noticed a place where I did a small touch-up. I guess the moral of the story is, you just have to order and reorder and reorder and reorder every single frame until you get it absolutely perfect, even if it ends up costing you money out of your pocket, because touch-ups are unacceptable.

Wonder if they say the same thing about a painting by Rubens.