Tips for large frames?

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jr219

True Grumbler
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Jun 25, 2020
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Montverde, Florida
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Aerolux Map Systems
Hello,

New framer here. We manufacture electronic artwork and we have an order for a large entire-USA map which will be about 60" wide x 36" tall . The art will be 3mm pvc substrate. I typically use Acrylite P99. I plan on getting a larger profile moulding for this just due to the size of the piece. Want something with a big more rigidity to it... I normally just order them chops and inserts since I don't have an underpinner yet. Hopefully that will be OK... Also, I don't plan on having them hang it with wire, but using d-rings or some other hardware (maybe wall buddies?)

I'd appreciate any other tips/tricks when doing large pieces of art?
 
Write down what you plan to charge.. and then charge more.

Look into Z bars for hanging. :thumbsup:
 
framah said:
Write down what you plan to charge.. and then charge more.

Look into Z bars for hanging. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Haha. Thats why I'm scared. This will honestly be a huge WOW piece for our company and will hopefully lead to more business down the road, but I hear you. 36x24" is easy... I just don't know what I don't know... :-)

I'll research the z-bars.

-jr
 
I would suggest beefing up the substrate. I'm not a big fan of PVC (Sintra?) and 3mm thick panel, sealed on one side with the output, will bow with changes in the environment.
Sintra is also fairly active with temperature change and can expand and shrink enough to cause ripples in the pressure applied output.
Both of those issues would be relieved if you used ACM panel instead.
You will probably get some bowing of the acrylic in that size piece. It's just the nature of the beast.
Lastly, will the acrylic have contact with the output, and will there be any unwanted side effects from that? I've has some printed surfaces bond to acrylic, so spacers might be needed.
 
wpfay said:
I would suggest beefing up the substrate. I'm not a big fan of PVC (Sintra?) and 3mm thick panel, sealed on one side with the output, will bow with changes in the environment.
Sintra is also fairly active with temperature change and can expand and shrink enough to cause ripples in the pressure applied output.
Both of those issues would be relieved if you used ACM panel instead.
You will probably get some bowing of the acrylic in that size piece. It's just the nature of the beast.
Lastly, will the acrylic have contact with the output, and will there be any unwanted side effects from that? I've has some printed surfaces bond to acrylic, so spacers might be needed.
Click to expand...

The artwork is actually direct UV printed to the 3mm PVC. We then install fiber optic strands through the PVC with some LED lights behind those fiber pieces. I'm not sure if the expansion or contraction of the PVC will be an issue. It hasn't been thus far on our smaller pieces. We have also not seen any issues with the artwork interacting with the acrylic.

Not sure how to deal with the bow of the acrylic and maybe even the substrate.
 
If you're not sealing one side, the bowing of the PVC back shouldn't be an issue, but as Ylva suggests, using a deeper frame and putting a supportive strainer inside the main frame can help consolidate everything. It can also help resolve the hanging issue if the strainer is also a French cleat.
I would enjoy seeing some photos of the work if they are available.
 
Hi, jr219. On something that big, I'd use D-rings, security hangers or Z-Bar rather than Wall-Buddies. Unless you use the triangular metal backing part of the wall buddies, with a more solid hanger than they provide. Several years ago, we hung a horizontal customer's framed mirror that was about 22 x 60 and weighed about 50 lbs. Used the heavies Wall-Buddies with their hangers and installed the hangers in the right position. A few weeks later, she had us come back. One of the hangers nails had ripped out of the sheetrock, the end of the frame had fallen, and long story short, she fired her house cleaners. She was sure that they had bumped it off the wall. I think the hanger likely just failed in the sheet rock. We replaced their hanger with a sheet rock anchor and kept the triangular part on the frame back, and it worked well.

D-rings can work very well, though. We use Z-bar for big things, but I did once hang a 40 x 60 framed mirror on sheet rock with 3-hole D-rings and 75 lb. floreat wall hangers, and it lasted well.

About having the frame pre-routed, do you use thumbnails or Hoffman dovetail keys? Frames joined with thumbnails can eventually had corners popping apart. Hoffman routing and keys put the pressure in a different direction and result in much stronger corners. Picture Woods in Colorado sells maple, ash and walnut. Beautiful frames, and they'll route for Hoffman keys for a small fee. You can request that the keys be sent along, and they're easy to insert.
 
wpfay said:
If you're not sealing one side, the bowing of the PVC back shouldn't be an issue, but as Ylva suggests, using a deeper frame and putting a supportive strainer inside the main frame can help consolidate everything. It can also help resolve the hanging issue if the strainer is also a French cleat.
I would enjoy seeing some photos of the work if they are available.
Click to expand...

I typically do acrylic and the art and leave the rest open. My normal 24x36" units I have been using a inner facing D-ring with some wire to hang. The computer to drive the LEDs also fits inside the frame, so I need a deeper rabbit.

You can see some photos on our Facebook Page @ Aerolux Maps https://www.facebook.com/aeroluxmaps . There are some some photos of the rear of the frames so you can see what is involved with the LED lights.

I plan on using a deep and more sturdy frame for this size. I'm thinking Decor 9674 which is a 1 1/2" wide with a 2" Rabbit. I can look into using a strainer. Can strainers be ordered to size from the main suppliers if I wanted to go that route?
 
Shayla said:
D-rings can work very well, though. We use Z-bar for big things, but I did once hang a 40 x 60 framed mirror on sheet rock with 3-hole D-rings and 75 lb. floreat wall hangers, and it lasted well.

About having the frame pre-routed, do you use thumbnails or Hoffman dovetail keys? Frames joined with thumbnails can eventually had corners popping apart. Hoffman routing and keys put the pressure in a different direction and result in much stronger corners. Picture Woods in Colorado sells maple, ash and walnut. Beautiful frames, and they'll route for Hoffman keys for a small fee. You can request that the keys be sent along, and they're easy to insert.
Click to expand...

I think d-rings on the vertical parts of the frame would likely be fine as would the z-bar. I would get nervous about the z-bar on the top rail pulling things out of wack bowing depending on the width of the z-bar.

I order from Decor and have them chop + inserts. They use the Hoffman Dovetail keys, they seem to have good fit and hold up well. I glue up each corner put the inserts in and then clamp it.

-jr
 
The Z bars should be just short of the width of the frame. Then cut the one for the wall about 4 shorter at each end. This gives whomever the leeway to adjust the piece left or right without exposing the bar on the wall.
No bowing with that length.
 
framah said:
The Z bars should be just short of the width of the frame. Then cut the one for the wall about 4 shorter at each end. This gives whomever the leeway to adjust the piece left or right without exposing the bar on the wall.
No bowing with that length.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. Thanks.
 
Any of the two point systems might work, but you are trying to sell a product that the end user will have to hang, and in that is the challenge. Look into Hook-Ups brand ring hangers for this project. They have the strength of D ring hangers, but they are adjustable, so the end user doesn't have to put the wall hooks in all that precisely. They do have to get the width between fairly exact, but the level is not as critical.
If the piece is to be professionally installed, I would go with a cleat style hanger. Either integrated French cleats in the strainer, or the EZ-bar aluminum cleats (there are other brands). The heavy duty EZ bar cleats are good to 75 lbs. dead weight in drywall.
 
I'm also seeing that I can have the artwork printed on 6mm substrate (vs 3mm), which should provide some more rigidity.
 
wpfay said:
Any of the two point systems might work, but you are trying to sell a product that the end user will have to hang, and in that is the challenge. Look into Hook-Ups brand ring hangers for this project. They have the strength of D ring hangers, but they are adjustable, so the end user doesn't have to put the wall hooks in all that precisely. They do have to get the width between fairly exact, but the level is not as critical.
If the piece is to be professionally installed, I would go with a cleat style hanger. Either integrated French cleats in the strainer, or the EZ-bar aluminum cleats (there are other brands). The heavy duty EZ bar cleats are good to 75 lbs. dead weight in drywall.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That looks like a neat product.

I had come across this when I was researching some things. Seemed like more of a consumer geared product, but a neat idea nevertheless.

beehivepicturehangers.com

Picture Frame Hangers

True picture hanger innovation. Hangs frames with zero measuring. Ideal for multi-frame wall galleries.
beehivepicturehangers.com beehivepicturehangers.com
 
jr219 said:
Thanks. That looks like a neat product.

I had come across this when I was researching some things. Seemed like more of a consumer geared product, but a neat idea nevertheless.

beehivepicturehangers.com

Picture Frame Hangers

True picture hanger innovation. Hangs frames with zero measuring. Ideal for multi-frame wall galleries.
beehivepicturehangers.com beehivepicturehangers.com
Click to expand...
Those Beehive hangers certainly are an inovative idea.
I see they have a selection of drywall anchors that can hold up to 75lbs.
Good alternative to Wall Buddies?
 
Nikodeumus said:
Your LED light maps are very cool!
Great idea. 👍
Click to expand...

Thank you! I spent a bunch of time perfecting things. I prototyped, modeled and 3d printed all the holders for the LED lights, sourced the LEDs, did all the software for the Raspberry Pi (I'm a software developer for my "real job").. This was my quarantine project.
 
What width of moulding are going to be using? If it's wide enough (2"+) I would consider putting in a
wooden biscuit - for which you'd need a special cutter. I do many large frames and typically use a biscuit,
plus a couple of v-nails just to keep the joint in alignment. Further to this I put steel 'L' plates on the corners.
All this is best done while the glue is still wet. It makes a very strong frame.
One problem with large frames is that the sheer size and weight tends to work against them when handling
and imparts stress on the corners so a bit of over-engineering do not go amiss.
 
Prospero said:
What width of moulding are going to be using? If it's wide enough (2"+) I would consider putting in a
wooden biscuit - for which you'd need a special cutter. I do many large frames and typically use a biscuit,
plus a couple of v-nails just to keep the joint in alignment. Further to this I put steel 'L' plates on the corners.
All this is best done while the glue is still wet. It makes a very strong frame.
One problem with large frames is that the sheer size and weight tends to work against them when handling
and imparts stress on the corners so a bit of over-engineering do not go amiss.
Click to expand...

I will likely be using something like DECOR 9674.. Which is a 1 1/2" shadow box w/ a 2" RABBIT. The corners will have the inserts in it (likely 2 of them). but I know what you are talking about with the biscuits. Similar to the festool domino tool for joinery...

The frame and the arcylic will certainly be the heaviest component of the entire project.
 
The Festool system would be at the top of the heap. I have a Porter-Cable Biscuit Joiner (AKA Plate Joiner), and it uses readily available generic biscuits, not proprietary ones like Festool.
For this job, the Hoffmann dovetail keys and ample glue should suffice. Metal "L" plates on the lower corners wouldn't hurt, but might be overkill.
 
wpfay said:
The Festool system would be at the top of the heap. I have a Porter-Cable Biscuit Joiner (AKA Plate Joiner), and it uses readily available generic biscuits, not proprietary ones like Festool.
For this job, the Hoffmann dovetail keys and ample glue should suffice. Metal "L" plates on the lower corners wouldn't hurt, but might be overkill.
Click to expand...

Yes, festool makes nice stuff. I have their track saw.
 
Metropolitan Picture Framing at

Metroframe Homepage

Manufacturer of contemporary museum quality frames for fine art. Optional components include spacers, strainers, matting, acrylic and backing.
www.metroframe.com
has a limited profile selection, but they’re really good when you need something big & strong. And they’ll cut and finish spacers to match the frame. If I needed a 4” deep frame plus room for a strainer, no problem. I’m spelling her name wrong, Lea Anne takes orders & answers the phone she’s most friendly, and knows exactly what she’s talking about; take her advice. A Street frames in Cambridge, Mass is just as helpful.
D rings on the strainer, NOT the frame itself is what I would do.
 
I'm sorry, I can do all kinds of things. but a DM? I'm not even sure what that is. I carry about this 12 year old flip phone, which suits my daily needs. We will wor the communications out, but here for now.
 
05, PM, Private Message, not DM. Take your cursor and hover over Jerry's, JFeig, avatar and you will see an option to start a conversation. Do so.
 
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