Taking apart a VNailed Frame

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Larry Peterson

Larry Peterson

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Tedh just started a thread on taking apart a Jersey Box, cutting it down a bit and put it back together. Rather than frankenThread his thread.............

I have seen some discussions here about this but haven't really seen any techniques for doing this well.

When I try to take apart a frame, I usually end up damaging 1-2" on each rail. I have heard some talking about drilling into a VNail and then pulling it out but haven't been successful in doing that.

So how are you doing it and how much of each rail is usable? Say you have an 11x14 frame VNailed with 15mm VNails and you take it apart. What's the largest frame you can make from the results?

And what techniques do you use?
 
My view FWIW:

  • Not worth messing with drilling out etc.
  • Why do it? Takes more time and effort than is commercially viable.
  • Easier than messing with breaking is just to cut apart the frame close to the miter (having a bandsaw in the shop makes this real easy & fast)
  • Then set a re-sizing maximum based on that
  • If that doesn't suit the customer, it's an opportunity to sell a new frame!
 
CAframer said:
  • (having a bandsaw in the shop makes this real easy & fast)
Click to expand...

I have both a bandsaw (with a wood blade) and a radial arm saw in the shop. What I do now, rather than try to take apart the joint, is to cut it apart with the radial arm saw, cutting each rail as close as possible to the VNails without hitting the VNails.

I end up with a straight cut a little shorter (about the width of the moulding shorter plus a bit) than the original.

Is that what you are talking about?
 
This can be done without damaging of losing any or only .25" of the frame. Most of the time.
 
I use the drill method and suggested it here a couple of years ago. A couple of buts - it's more difficult on hard woods and with 15 mm v-nails. The v-nails can break where the hole is drilled. I drill in to the vee at an angle, then push in an awl, and pry the v-nail up using a metal plate underneath to minimize frame damage. Pull the rest of the way with pliers with good grip. This allows you to cut right to the joint with the saw and shave just the glue off the piece that is the correct length. Yesterday I goofed and made a frame the correct width but 1/4" too long, customer in a rush, no backup material, too many days to receive a new stick. I was able to shorten the frame just that much. Mark the location of the new cut on the inside of the frame so you can see where the blade is cutting. I usually break the frame so I end up with two ells so I can use the stops on the saw to get the lengths uniform. But if you're replacing one of the pieces (maybe discovered a flaw after assembly) you can cut it out at both ends. Support the frame when cutting it apart so it doesn't drop and get dinged. Put the new v-nails in different spots to avoid the old grooves. There will be a little damage to the frame that can be filled or covered with paper, unless it is a canvas frame. Yes, it takes some time but you get faster at it. Practice on old frame sample corners.
 
In the old days of corner vise and brad I would bang a frame on each of the 4 corners to loosen the joints then take them apart.

I do the same with vnailed corners with half way decent results most of the time. Wiggle and jiggle and get one corner apart watching to be sure I don't pull the vnail through the face. Then needle nose pliers work to get the vnail out of the other side.

1/4 or 1/2" lost per side. If it is wood. If iti s that poly foamed readymade garbage then I may be able to salvage 1/2 to 1" of rail per side. Meaning that stuff is not worth even pretending to try to fix.... ALthough it might be fun to take one into the back room, fire up the chop saw and come back with a cup of sawdust and say, " we may have a problem...."
 
Breaking and re-nailing a wood frame is easy, and I lose maybe .5 to .75 inches overall per side. We re-cut a lot of the frames in the store if they're discontinued, or if we're in a hurry.

Re the plastic frames: we lose close to an inch per side breaking and reglueing, and we've done this a lot. I'm getting to be the go-to guy for all those people with cheap plastic frames that can be recovered.

One problem I have now is a 5 inch-wide monster that will not fit into any of my clamps. I can v-nail three inches, but this guy will need mending plates as well.
 
Stray Feathers said:
I use the drill method and suggested it here a couple of years ago. A couple of buts - it's more difficult on hard woods and with 15 mm v-nails. The v-nails can break where the hole is drilled. I drill in to the vee at an angle, then push in an awl, and pry the v-nail up using a metal plate underneath to minimize frame damage. Pull the rest of the way with pliers with good grip. This allows you to cut right to the joint with the saw and shave just the glue off the piece that is the correct length. Yesterday I goofed and made a frame the correct width but 1/4" too long, customer in a rush, no backup material, too many days to receive a new stick. I was able to shorten the frame just that much. Mark the location of the new cut on the inside of the frame so you can see where the blade is cutting. I usually break the frame so I end up with two ells so I can use the stops on the saw to get the lengths uniform. But if you're replacing one of the pieces (maybe discovered a flaw after assembly) you can cut it out at both ends. Support the frame when cutting it apart so it doesn't drop and get dinged. Put the new v-nails in different spots to avoid the old grooves. There will be a little damage to the frame that can be filled or covered with paper, unless it is a canvas frame. Yes, it takes some time but you get faster at it. Practice on old frame sample corners.
Click to expand...

What size bit are you using? The couple of times I tried, I broke a few bits. I think I was using 1/16" bits or thereabouts.
 
tedh said:
Breaking and re-nailing a wood frame is easy, and I lose maybe .5 to .75 inches overall per side. We re-cut a lot of the frames in the store if they're discontinued, or if we're in a hurry.
Click to expand...

GUMBY said:
This can be done without damaging of losing any or only .25" of the frame. Most of the time.
Click to expand...

OK, but how are you doing it? Drilling? Some other method?
 
I do the "twist-back". Holding two opposite corners, with the top and bottom corners against my manly body, I pull the corners back towards me, not damaging the front.

In some cases when this does not work, I put the diagonally-held frame bottom corner on the floor and push on the top.

If that fails, I push the m************* hard against the floor.
 
Larry Peterson said:
What size bit are you using? The couple of times I tried, I broke a few bits. I think I was using 1/16" bits or thereabouts.
Click to expand...

I've used 1/16 and they are prone to breaking. A larger size works better but you need to get a little deeper so the hole is not too near the top of the v-nail and more prone to breaking. 1/16 is more forgiving that way.
 
Lay frame on bench so that two diagonal corners are on the edge. Press down on the overhanging bit. Levering on the back of the joint will pull the vnails out with no damage to the face. The other two corners the same way but holding and twisting.

Sometimes a vnail will split and leave a chunk deep in the wood. You obviously have to get them out before doing any trimming of the face. A thin hacksaw blade does the least damage. Sometimes Dremelling with a fine engraving bit to nibble round the splinter.

There will be a divot on the miter faces where the vnails pull out. Also dried glue. You can shave a thin slice off to clean up the face with minimal loss of length in the rail. You just have to try and avoid re-pinning it the same place.
 
My technique is similar to Peter’s (Prospero), but, of course, much better. :p

I first rock the frame back and forth a few times until I hear the glue let go.

Then I place the frame face down on a table with one rail over the edge of the table. Grabbing a standard carpenters’ hammer whack the back of the rail that is over hanging unti it separates completely. Do this with all of the sides.

The V-Nails will still be attached to some of the rails.

I’ll put them each into a right angle vise (finish side up) and knock the nails out with a hammer and nail set (fat side against the nail). The nail seldom comes out completely, but with enough of the metal pushed to the back, you can generally grab the rest with a pair of pliers and pull them out.

If you have a miter sander (and some luck) you may be able to remove the glue without having to re-miter the corners.
 
Cut with a hacksaw and make smooth with a miter sander.

You only loose 1/8 to 1/4 inch.

Use care when renailing so you don't stack the v nails on top of each other.

Doug
 
I've tried the 'Henry' technique and there is a 50/50 chance of the vnails exiting the front as well as the back. Sometimes both. :p:p:p

For a moment I thought he was going to suggest a troupe of trained termites. :popc:
 
Less does it all the time. Let me go ask him how he does it.

Ok, He cracks the glue joints by gently - or not so much - banging the outside edge of each corner on our carpeted floor. Then, laying the frame on the table, hanging the corner over the edge, rock one leg until it slides apart. Carefully pull the vnails out with diagonal cutters. Repeat. Clean the miter with sand paper sticks or in the saw and put it back together. Works 90% of the time. Not so well on hard woods.
 
It's a pita when you do have to break a frame apart. But it is a good test of how strong your joints are.

I once made a frame from some really chunky moulding. About 4" wide and 2" deep. With not a lot of wood milled off. I used two biscuits on each corner + vnails and a couple of 4" woodscrews across the corners. One bit was warped and I couldn't correct it. :icon21: So after a while I thought dagnabit and tried to break it apart. I couldn't break the sucker even with my massive biceps. Eventually I had to saw the corners off.
 
I do it exactly like Bill Henry with 1 exception. To remove the Vnail I attach a small needle nose vise grip to the vnail, of course the vnail is hanging over the edge of the table top, and I wack the attached vise grip with a hammer - in most cases the full/whole vnail is removed with absolutely no damage to the moulding. I spot sand the sections and continue my joining process. Works great with minor to NO loss of moulding.
 
Usually I'll stand a corner of the frame on a padded benchtop or floor and push jut enough to break the glue joints loose. Then I put each corner in a miter vice with one side out of the clamp, and jack the corner apart. The result of vice-jacking is similar to the twisting and bending-over-the-edge methods, but the slow, controlled force of the vice avoids breaking out more wood than necessary.

To remove the metal fasteners hanging halfway out of the miters, I grip them with pliers and whap the tool downward to drive them straight out of the wood.
 
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