Opinions Wanted Sharpie fading time

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The Village Framer

The Village Framer

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Posts
313
Loc
Yarmouth, ME
I've seen a number of threads about how Sharpies are really not light fast and the last thing framers should recommend for signing something. And of course I've seen a number of things come through over the years signed in Sharpie. But I haven't seen one that's faded and I have no real idea of how long it might take Sharpie ink to fade. Obviously I know it can vary due to environmental conditions, but does anybody have a ballpark? I'm framing a huge flag that flew over Bagram Air Base and the soldier who raised the flag wrote all of that info on the flag in Sharpie. It's getting displayed in an office so even though it'll have UV glazing there's a good chance of flourescent lights being somewhere near it, not to mention windows. I'd like to give my customer a heads up about the life of that inscription, possibly it could affect where he hangs it.
 
As you said, exposure levels and conditions are going to be a big factor. As a ballpark, though, in the conditions you describe I would expect to see some noticeable change within a year or two. Be sure to advise them that this is the nature of the beast with Sharpie and it WILL happen, so to hang it it the most dimly lit appropriate area possible. This will also help preserve the flag itself.
:cool: Rick
 
Conservators in Ireland like this Write-4-All marker..

You should be able to get it in the USA..

All the good permanent markers need a short while to dry otherwise they will smudge. ...


http://www.ote.ie/permanent-marker-write-4-all-stabilo

I am almost sure there was some testing done by a conservator with the result that Sharpie were not very light permanent. ..
 
Thanks, Dermot. It's good to know about these, the Pigma Micron pens, etc. for our own use and to advise customers who are planning signing projects. Unfortunately, most signed objects that our customers bring in for framing have already been signed using Sharpies, because of their ubiquity here in the US. They are marketed as "permanent markers", but that really means they won't necessarily come out in the laundry.
:cool: Rick
 
Worst/biggest lawsuit I had to defend was from a Sharpie marker signature fading on a sports jersey. Despite using UV filtering products, the signature faded. Of course the framer is the last to "touch" the product and the first one blamed. The "expert witness" I retained testified that the signature might have faded in a dark closet as a reaction from the iron in the ink and dye used for the jersey. She also testified that there is a level of curatorial care borne by the owner who displayed it in a office with fluorescent lights on more than 8 hours a day - and also that the person signing did not use a pigment based marker and the seller never warranted that the signature was "permanent".

Since the burden of proof was upon the plaintiff, he was not able to prove that anything I did caused the signature to fade so he "lost." Nonetheless it was expensive and time consuming for me and now I specifically tell a client that all signatures are subject to fading despite the steps we take in framing to prolong the fading.
 
Yikes Rob, sounds like a nightmare despite a favorable outcome. I normally tell people to use a micron like Rick suggested but Sharpie's are so common it's kind of a pointless exercise to try to get people to stop using them. I'll let my customer know, thanks all!
 
Weird..... My personal experiences(non framing,no letters!) Is totally different. I hand painted shirts and totes for years,using sharpies for layout and linework.Never had one fade even with repeated laudering! I even did a small dragon on our old van with shapie pens as the medium for the line work. Had that van for almost 15 years,again no fade. P.S. Nothing will cover shapie ink....nothing! Oh and,unless your client is in the Army,he or she is not a soldier.....Air force..air man..navy,sailor,etc.Just my little pet peeve,well one of em.No harm intended. L
 
That's assuming the ink in all Sharpies is the same. Manufacturers do chop'n'change things. Sometimes for the better but often not.

Ball-point pen ink is worse than marker ink in my exp. Black goes purple and gradually vanishes to nothing. Colors are worse.

The sigs on my Fine Art Trade Guild (lapsed) certificate have long since disappeared. :icon11:

I always warn customers about any non-pencil sigs.
 
Thanks for that link, Dermot! :thumbsup:

We recommend Pigma pens for the wedding mats we do, but I have customers
bring in items signed with Sharpie. Yesterday, one of our ladies brought in
a Pearl Jam poster that she got at a concert in Amsterdam. The whole band
signed it in what looks suspiciously like Sharpie, so I told her it's prone to fade.
We're using Museum glass, but I let her know that even still, it can happen.
 
Despite using UV filtering products, the signature faded. The "expert witness" I retained testified that the signature might have faded in a dark closet as a reaction from the iron in the ink and dye used for the jersey. She also testified that there is a level of curatorial care borne by the owner who displayed it in a office with fluorescent lights on more than 8 hours a day - and also that the person signing did not use a pigment based marker and the seller never warranted that the signature was "permanent".
Click to expand...

I want to add more factual information on marker inks and I'm only using Rob's quote because he mentioned where I am going with this. There is a difference between permanent and lightfast inks. Permanent inks generally mean waterproof by most manufacturers, meaning obviously they will not wash off. Lightfast means they are probably made with pigmented inks rather than dye based inks. Dyes fade, pigments do not. Sharpies are permanent but NOT lightfast, and the big news here is that it is not the UV light that fades them, it is actually the visible light that makes them red, blue green and black in the first place. It's nice we use UV glass to protect them from UV rays but the visible light will
fade them anyway. Same story with ball point ink.

Keeping them in cold, dark storage--as in a museum--might indeed slow down the fade, and I know nothing about iron that might be in the ink...or not. All in all my son had a signed photo from David Copperfield when he was eight years old. I told him that David was a magician and the signature would disappear in a few months. It did. Sometimes it's just no fun being right.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. After the fact--meaning already signed--there's not much we can do but warn them.
Chris Paschke
 
I framed a book cover, shiny. Signed with a sharpie.
It's been hanging in our house for over 3 years now (MG used) and although not in a particular sunny spot, bright daylight enough. Yes, it did fade somewhat, but is still okay. I was aware that it might happen of course, but nothing I can do after it has been signed.

I too tell my customers not to use sharpie. When something brought in, signed already, I always tell them that I have no control over the marker used and despite the conservation glass, I cannot guarantee that it will never fade.
 
I was of the impression that the marking pens (at least the black one) that come with the Attach-Ez kits are good to use for this purpose.





Z
 
The Marvy Uchida LePlume pens that come from AttachEZ are pigmented. They should be less fading than dye based markers, but even pigments will fade over time. On the Uchida website they do not make any lightfastness claims.
 
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