Needle work vs. Needle art

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J

jframe

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Call this an editorial if you like. It has been bugging me for years. It's not
aimed at anyone in particular. I think it is degrading to the term "art" to
generalize and call needlework needle art. The same goes for paint by
number paintings, even if they are collectible, they are not art, they are craft.
What is your opinion?

I just don't see most needlework as art. How can it be art if the stitcher
didn't create the pattern and select the colors herself?

I can only see it as needlework. Needle working is skill, a craft and there are
some stitchers who do very fine work. Others simply do needlework.

I would only call it art if the stitcher created the pattern, selected the colors
and executed the stitching herself.

Where is the art in purchasing a pattern or kit? The art is in the creation of
the pattern or kit.

Picture framing is not an art unless you are Brian Wolf, or you handcraft
frames. Picture framing is a skill or a craft, with many formulas to be learned
in order to do fine framing, just as needle working is a craft with many kinds
of stitching to learn.

There is no shame in calling yourself a craftsperson. There is much praise to
be had for those who are gifted at technical execution.
 
Jo, I feel your pain.

As a former fine artist and graphic designer I have been engaged in discussions that center on the larger question; "What is *art*?"

This relates to your question. I would respond with the same answer I have used regarding paint, pencil, clay, and other media; if the person that creates it calls it art, then it's art. Now the question becomes whether it is good art or bad art.

So if someoine wants to call their product "needle-art", then it is. Just suck-it-up and smile. In your mind you can answer the next question.

Best regards;
Don Denier, CPF
 
Now that I think about your question a little more, you went into more detail with further probing questions.

I believe there are three elements at play in any profession. These can apply to any community of practice. These are the Science, the Craft, and the Art involved in the practice.

The Science involves the accepted body of knowledge that deals with the topic to include the known materials and the interactions of these materials in the practices of the profession.

The Craft is the applied use of the materials, tools, and equipment common to the practice and the expertise with which these resources are applied.

The Art consists of those elements of personal creativity, innovative uses of common materials, and the introduction of new knowledge and materials into the practice.

Assess the blend of Science, Craft, and Art to any community of practice one can easily separate the truly excellent from all others.

Just my opinion. Apply that to framers, needle people, or dog handlers (my daughter is one and a very good one).

Does this help?

Best regards;
 
Jo,

I have a customer - okay, maybe this one's a client - who does original silk embroidery. She has studied and taught in the Far East and nearly everywhere else in the world. A few years ago, she earned the highest designation an embroiderer can achieve: the Grand Master Pooba Embroiderer, or something like that. Part of the difficulty in this achievement was in finding peers who could judge her work.

I don't know why I'm doing her framing. I truly am not worthy (and you know I'm not normally overly modest.) For that matter, I don't know any framers that <U>are</U> worthy. Her work has astonished me for about 20 years and it continues to improve.

But, when it comes to Precious Moments cross-stitch, I'm inclined to agree with you.
 
Ron, go to Warped- I wouldn't presume to continue this thread on this fairly straight-laced forum
 
Originally posted by jframe:
Picture framing is a skill or a craft, with many formulas to be learned
in order to do fine framing, just as needle working is a craft with many kinds
of stitching to learn.

There is no shame in calling yourself a craftsperson. There is much praise to
be had for those who are gifted at technical execution.
Click to expand...
Jo, I agree with you completely. I am a juried member of both the Southern Highlands and the Foothills Craft Guilds. I had to go through a process of which my work was judged by professional craft/artists. I was accepted on the first try. Many people are juried several times before they make it.

I am still amazed that I was accepted. (Humbled, you might say.) Not because my work is not good enough, but because I don't "create" anything I do. In that arena, I am simply a caner. I could teach anyone to do what I do. (In fact sales of my book depend on the fact that I can teach anyone.) The vast majority of the members of both Guilds create everything they do from scratch; from raw material to finished product. I am simply a craftsman. (Yes, a professional craftsman, but not an artist.)

Like Ron, I do have some customers that do "needleart", but most only do needlecraft. And yes, there is a difference.

Betty
 
Great Topic:

I think Don is dead on. Choose one; scientist, craftsman, or artist. I could never be happy as a scientist. I am quite satisfied at being a good craftsman. I hope someday to be a great one, but it is the artist in me that will give me that ability. Anyone can learn the craft of blowing glass, but not everyone can create great art glass. Now that I am involved with the fine art world, I have seen some incredible needle art! Sure, they had to learn their craft first, but to be able to express oneself in that way, can only come from being an artist.

Anyone can learn how to paint a Landscape or an Abstract, and given enough time, they will be able to technically create a good painting. Only an artist can take it to the next level. I believe you cannot learn how to be an artist; you have to be born with the ability.

Not everyone can learn to be a good businessperson, but anyone can learn the craft of picture framing. Not everyone has the technical ability to be a great craftsman. There is definitely art in picture framing. It is what separates the great ones from everyone else. To be able to work with color and design, to be able to create a frame that no one else has ever thought of, the ability to think out-of-the-box. I have seen what Framer and Marc can do, and I believe that there is artistry in their framing. History is filled with great artists who were framers and great framers who were artists.
 
The Art consists of those elements of personal creativity, innovative uses of common materials, and the introduction of new knowledge and materials into the practice.
Click to expand...
Don,
I think I disagree with the last half of this statement. I do not think that to be considered a good or even great artist that you have to introduce new knowledge, and especially not new materials into practice. Some of the worst art I have ever seen is where the "artist" is trying to push the envelope with alternate materials, and often times this type of art does not stand the test of time. I'm not saying that it can't be done, I'm just saying I don't think it is a requirement for something to be considered Art.
 
I'd say that the biggest difference between the two is that needlework gets stuffed in cheap frames after having been mounted over cardboard with masking tape. Needleart is framed with fabric mats, maybe a fillet, and is stretched using reversible methods over quality substrate. An alternative discrimination.. about $200... hehehe. And speaking slightly more seriously for a moment, what makes any print, including s/n, art?
 
Leslie S. said:

Some of the worst art I have ever seen is where the "artist" is trying to push
the envelope with alternate materials, and often times this type of art does not
stand the test of time. I'm not saying that it can't be done, I'm just saying I don't
think it is a requirement for something to be considered Art.

And Ellen at Howards said:

And speaking slightly more seriously for a moment, what makes any print,
including s/n, art?

To respond to both, I'd go back to the first note I offered (again -- just my opinion):

. . . if the person that creates it calls it art, then it's art. Now the question becomes whether it is good art or bad art.

Not every product is successful (result: bad art). Not every artist has adequate understanding of the science or is a capable craftsperson. All of the creativity in the world will be lost if the fundamentals are absent -- a kind of three-legged stool. (Of course there is always the "happy accident".)

From a framer's standpoint, do we care? The price for a great frame on lousy art is just the same as it would be for great art.

Don
:eek:
 
Honestly, I have to say I don't care what they call it or how good it is just so long as they let me frame it. :rolleyes:

Don, I love Port Angeles, I had an Aunt who lived in Sequim, what a cute little town. All I remember as a kid is Port Angeles being the furthest northwest point in the US, and the beaches are what I think of as real beaches, rocks and cliffs and whole seashells. And boy oh boy the green lush mountains were such a contrast to the Rocky Mountains here in Colorado.

Sorry to change the subject, your hometown just brought back very nice memories! Now back to your discussion.
 
Originally posted by jframe:
Picture framing is a skill or a craft, with many formulas to be learned
in order to do fine framing...

There is no shame in calling yourself a craftsperson. There is much praise to
be had for those who are gifted at technical execution.
Click to expand...
Art itself is a skill and a craft, with many formulas to be learned; there is nothing new under the sun, and any decent piece of artwork is based on formulas. (Don't get me started on abstract "art.") An artist is himself a craftsperson, "gifted at technical execution."

It is the inspiration and the creativity that make it art, instead of paint-by-numbers; if you can screw up framing--and we've all seen the many ways!--then surely a good framer is an artist, in some ways. Otherwise all framing would be as easy as paint-by-numbers, and it would all turn out exactly the same.

Artwork has a soul; it is up to the framer to see it, enhance it, and finish it. Good framing becomes an extension of the artwork, and the framer is an integral part of the artistic process.

I'm not arguing with anyone here...just my two cents.
 
I will agree wholeheartedly about needlework, though; that's what I call "busywork." Like painting by numbers, filling in the blanks, whitewashing the fence, and other mindless tasks.

There is certainly skill involved; I won't argue that. But there isn't any creativity involved, so I don't consider it art. The people who assemble jewelry are craftsmen; they are not artists. The only artist involved is the one who designed it. This is the same way I view needlework.

But if you finish it, frame it, and hang it on the wall, it becomes artwork anyway....so I guess we're splitting hairs here.... :D
 
I would argue that if you frame and hang it on the wall it simply becomes wall
decor.

Wall decor includes many categories other than art.

If you hang a rug or a quilt on the wall is it art? Yes, if it is an original pattern created by the weaver or quilter.

Wouldn't we be less than truthfull if we called it art when we frame Granny's old pot holders? ;)
 
Jo,
On the whole I tend to agree with you. Most of the needlework I have seen falls into the craft arena. Over the years I have seen only four or five pieces that I considered art. A couple of them were originals done by a really talented lady. One in particular, though, was a cross stitch on evenweave, and was so intricate, and beautiful (especially after it was well framed!)that I didn't want to give it back! I give most of the credit to the artist who first designed it, and some to the craftsperson who executed the design so well, but the end result was a piece of needle art, no question. I do admit this is an exception to the rule, however.
 
Often times it takes a greal deal of creative framing to make the needlework (that's what I call it) look like a piece of artwork or enhanced decor, thus making the framer the artist!

Now if you ruin that piece of needlework in your shop it will probably be worth as much as something called art.

Are we allowed to get off subject since the cats away? Have a good one.
 
I have a real problem with this topic and it goes along the lines of Ellen's last line, with a little addendum. I have worked with a recognized art auction for over 10 years and it has had some very serious works in many different mediums. However many of them I wouldn't own on a bet. But this doesn't make them any less ART. I dare say that the opinion of me or anyone else doesn't detrmine what is Needle art and Needlework, any more that we can determine what is art and decoration or both or maybe niether. I thought we were FRAMERS and as such we have bristled when Artist( Those with a brush or needle) have come on line and dared to tell us how to frame.So How do we dare to return the favor ( Unless some of us are recognized art critics as well,then I apologize once again).
Further more some of the statements are so generalized that the originators have not qualified WHY the Needle ART/WORK is either ,and therefore is nothing more then an opinionated assumption which leaves them wide open to a bunch of wise cracking come backs that do no one any good.
After reading this I would assume that things like photographs are not ART either .After all aren't they just mere reproductions of images that we actually see and therefore lack originality? I think We need to find a better definintion for "What Is Art" before we start discrediting anything.
BUDDY
 
I think Don's 3 point art description (science, craft, art) is good. I also think that as long as the art is an original concept, created by the original creator, it is art. The rest is irrelevant.
 
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