Looking for suggestions for v-nailing relatively tall and narrow moulding

Create a Post
D

DBarthel

Grumbler
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Posts
20
Hello everyone!

I am using LJ's Ansley profile #227517 (https://www.larsonjuhl.com/p-378-227517.aspx?itemid=665&CatId=128), and while I have successfully joined this moulding, my results have been far from consistent. I am feeling the moulding shift slightly when I drive the v-nails, with the end result often being gapping on the face of the corner. I chop it with my Morso and pin it with my VN2+1. I stack a pair of 10mm softwood nails in two different spots. I've also used 15mm nails (single, non-stacked) in the two spots with somewhat better results.

Things I have tried:

-Ensuring the rabbet supports on the chopper are high enough so that the moulding doesn't 'roll' forward from the downward pressure of the blades, hence (hopefully) getting a good chop.

-Positioning the VN2+1 vertical clamp in different locations above the moulding.

-Adjusting the air pressure from 50 to 80 PSI.

Some ideas I have thought of:

-Would a rubber pad on the vertical clamp hold a tall, narrow profile in place better than a felt pad, being that it has better friction?

-Would using single 15mm nails be better than stacked 10mm nails, even though they don't secure the miter as close to the face?

I have very few issues with joining wider moulding. It's the tall, narrow profiles that have been giving me headaches.

Thanks in advance for your advice!
 
My method: Join it first in a Stanley clamp, and air-nail just down from the top with thin brads. When the glue has dried, vnail it with stacked 10s.
 
Only stack the front position and use a single in the back. Is the moulding really soft wood? If not, using the softwood nails won't give you as good a joint.
 
The 23 gauge pin nailer is very handy for narrow, tall mouldings so you can engage the clamp, fire a pin then v-nail. If you do it this way use the 15mm and it will be a tight miter. The hole is so small that nobody will see the dab of filler wax used to conceal it.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
The 23 gauge pin nailer is very handy for narrow, tall mouldings so you can engage the clamp, fire a pin then v-nail. If you do it this way use the 15mm and it will be a tight miter. The hole is so small that nobody will see the dab of filler wax used to conceal it.
Click to expand...
This may be worth trying. I've never used a pin nailer. Is there a particular 23-gauge model that works well for this purpose, or will most any such pin nailer be okay?
 
I glue and clamp in my Stanley clamps - after the glue has set (dried) I join it with the v-nails. Works every time for a nice clean fit. Of course this is true only if the corners are properly cut and the lengths are the exact same size. I do use a pin nailer now and then but only if it is absolutely necessary. I mainly use the pin nailer to attach stacked frames - works great for that.
 
The point of a under pinner is to secure the corner while the glue is drying, by gluing first then pinning you run the risk of the v nails breaking the joint when you pin it, this is usually stated in the operating instructions of your under pinner at least it has been on all the ones I have owned.

Are your morso blades sharp enough and are they hollow ground? I have found 90% + of joining problems are cutting related and most of those are blunt or badly sharpened blades
hold your moulding nice and tight while cutting and be sure to take small bites the smallest being the last one, which should be a very fine cut.

I have not used or ever seen your particular under pinner, can you adjust the gate on your machine? If so can they tilt? A slight forward tilt will close the face, does your under pinner clamp the moulding at the front as well as the top? If not then make sure you hold nice and tight while pinning.

Your moulding is 30 mm deep, both cassese and alpha machine state your v nails sould be as close as 2 mm from the top of the moulding, I am aware this can crack the face of some of the harder woods and this is not always possible anyway.
I would stack two x 12 mm at the inner edge about 3 mm in and one x 12 mm just over half way, not too close to the outer edge as this can cause problems, this should put your v nails 4 mm from the face.

I do use pin nails to secure the top of deep rebated frames but on frames much deeper than this one,
We make many frames in a similar moulding to the one you are using, up to 150 in a week without issue, good luck.
 
DBarthel said:
This may be worth trying. I've never used a pin nailer. Is there a particular 23-gauge model that works well for this purpose, or will most any such pin nailer be okay?
Click to expand...

They are pretty much equal across the board since it is a very light duty tool. The one thing to be aware of is be sure to get one that will not dent the frame due to its construction. I got a 3 tool set from Home Depot online since it was only $89. You can easily spend over $100 for the single tool but there is no real need to do that.

This is the one I got in the 3 tool set. You can search their sight to see of they have the multiple tool deal since it came with 2 other nailers and a soft zip up bag.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-1-in-Micro-Pin-Nailer-HP123/202656606
 
Reading back through my reply, I forgot to mention the top clamp on your under pinner should be close to the moulding when pinning, if it's starting position is too high it can cause a too low pressure to be sufficient to stop the v nails lifting the moulding and open the face.
 
A better solution is to use a tool that is better at doing what you are trying to accomplish and will give you superior results. Tall stems are a no-brainer for a Hoffmann joint.

If you are going to produce framing with stem or shadowbox moulding in any quantity, you owe it to yourself to consider owning a Hoffmann machine.
 
Seconding Rob's suggestion. We're so glad that we bought one.
 
IFGL said:
The point of a under pinner is to secure the corner while the glue is drying, by gluing first then pinning you run the risk of the v nails breaking the joint when you pin it, this is usually stated in the operating instructions of your under pinner at least it has been on all the ones I have owned.
Click to expand...
I agree! I would guess that the high-volume production framers aren't dealing with vises, clamps, and brads. I don't mean to disparage those who use them (I would myself if I found it to be the best solution)—but it does beg the question—how are the high-volume folks joining frames with just their underpinners?

IFGL said:
Are your morso blades sharp enough and are they hollow ground? I have found 90% + of joining problems are cutting related and most of those are blunt or badly sharpened blades
hold your moulding nice and tight while cutting and be sure to take small bites the smallest being the last one, which should be a very fine cut.
Click to expand...
I am using blades that were hollow-ground by Tech Mark. I have made about 40 frames (all softwood—no hardwood or MDF) with those blades since they were last sharpened. I haven't been framing long enough to have a good feel for when blades need to be re-sharpened, but I assume they are sharp enough if I am still getting clean, smooth cuts.

I always press the moulding tight against the fence when chopping. With this thin profile, I am inclined to take just two bites—one at the second-to-last notch and the other at the final notch. I can't think of any reason to take more than those two bites. If there is, I'd be curious to know.

IFGL said:
I have not used or ever seen your particular under pinner, can you adjust the gate on your machine? If so can they tilt? A slight forward tilt will close the face, does your under pinner clamp the moulding at the front as well as the top? If not then make sure you hold nice and tight while pinning.
Click to expand...
The VN2+1 goes by several other names—Mitre Mite, Minigraf 3, Alphamachine. It is sold by Fletcher/AMP and is commonly used in the industry. It has the top and front clamps, both of which I use. It only comes with a non-adjustable 90 degree fence. There is an optional fence for this machine that tilts, but it is pricey (to the tune of $410).
 
Rob Markoff said:
A better solution is to use a tool that is better at doing what you are trying to accomplish and will give you superior results. Tall stems are a no-brainer for a Hoffmann joint.

If you are going to produce framing with stem or shadowbox moulding in any quantity, you owe it to yourself to consider owning a Hoffmann machine.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm sure this is a great tool. I just can't justify the investment with how few of this type of frame I make.
 
One of my under pinners is a minigraph 4, you definitely need to have the top clamp positioned near new top of the moulding, no more than half an inch away.
 
One thing has occurred to me recently. The VN2+1 underpinner's back fence is only about 1/4" to 3/8" tall. Some of the Cassese and other machines that I have seen have much taller back fences.

Is it possible that a 1/4" tall fence is not high enough to properly support a profile that is narrow and over an inch tall?

Thoughts?
 
IFGL said:
One of my under pinners is a minigraph 4, you definitely need to have the top clamp positioned near new top of the moulding, no more than half an inch away.
Click to expand...
I always make sure it is at the closest point without touching the moulding.
 
Sometimes soft wood v nails are shaped to pull the corner together as it goes in alpha call them power twist, when stacking it can have the opposite effect if the pins start to curl backwards they will open the mitre, give hardwood pins a try
 
Do not buy the 23 ga. pin nailer from Harbor Freight. It is a POS. There are lots of brands out there based on that same design too. I got a Ridgid one that has been great. It is very handy for tall, thin profiles, like some of the LJ Gramercy which are so thin they can't be successfully v-nailed. The profile you showed should be no problem, though. I do what Jeff suggested, and only stack in the inner position, using a single nail in the outer position. For certain profiles I also sometimes glue in the vise first and then v-nail. I think the trick is to let it set up but not harden before v-nailing.
:cool: Rick
 
This is a perennial problem. I tend to put in a single v-nail - toward the inside. This holds the joint in alignment. Then throw a strap clamp around and cinch it up tightly. You have to put the strap around so that it's in the middle, or at least so there is room to cross-nail it near the top. Once clamped you can relax, it ain't going nowhere. I don't have an air-pinner, so I drill a pilot hole and use hammer and center punch. Then leave the whole thing clamped up until the glue sets.
The strap clamps that are made and are available for picture framing are awkward things IMHO. I use a simple clamp made by Stanley. I say made in the past tense, they don't make them any more as far as I know which is a pity. They are just a length of webbing with a ratchet device. Unlike picture-frame clamps you tighten them with a wrench. You can get a lot more pressure on than the screw-handle types. No corner blocks, therefore better for clamping mouldings with shaped backs. The nearest thing you can get now are automotive type tie-downs.
This method can be a problem if you have a number to do and you don't have enough clamps. :(
 
IFGL said:
The point of a under pinner is to secure the corner while the glue is drying, by gluing first then pinning you run the risk of the v nails breaking the joint when you pin it, this is usually stated in the operating instructions of your under pinner at least it has been on all the ones I have owned.

Are your morso blades sharp enough and are they hollow ground? I have found 90% + of joining problems are cutting related and most of those are blunt or badly sharpened blades
hold your moulding nice and tight while cutting and be sure to take small bites the smallest being the last one, which should be a very fine cut.
Click to expand...

IFGL, I totally agree with you about the blades being sharp and sharpened using the hollow ground process. I use the morso most the time but I also have a frame square saw for the mouldings the morso will not chop. I make sure my blades are always sharp and like you I find that hollow ground works the best though the blades do dull quicker that flat ground blades.

I only partially agree with the your statement about not gluing and pinning first because underpinning could cause the joint to break - maybe but I doubt it. I've been doing that process for close to 16 years without seeing a joint break - I just don't see it as a problem. In fact if you are using a good glue, letting it dry, have the correct pressure on the underpinner, and are using the correct v nails I don't see how it could happen. Also, I have also never seen that caution on any of the underpinners I have owned or used and I have owned and used a few, AMP and Cassesse. I know that the framing gods and gurus will disagree with me - so be it, I'm just stating that I have not had this problem and that I have never seen the caution about pre-glueing and pinning. I agree with Rob Markoff that the Hoffman is the perfect machine for this type of framing. If you are doing a lot of shadow boxes the Hoffman should be considered a necessary tool. The cost of the Hoffman is not cost effective if you are only doing a few shadow boxes a month and not using it for other framing. I only do 1 or 2 shadow boxes a month and I have a AMP VN 4L underpinner so I personally cannot justify the cost of a Hoffman.

Anyway, this is just my opinion for what it is worth. Joe B
 
Last edited:
The VN2+1 is an entry level machine and the larger volume framers use v-nailers with a lot more features like higher and adjustable back fences. Gluing first is not much of a problem like it was when I first started using a v-nailer more than 30 years ago. The white PVA glues like corner weld don't crack all at once like the old yellow wood glue since the have some elasticity to them. Glues like Corner Weld are much, much stronger than yellow wood glue as well.
 
I know many frames that glue clamp first and like you guys say they have never had a problem, my point is the underpinner was originally made and designed to do the clamping whilst the glue drys, if everything is set up correctly in the first place then gluing and clamping is completely unnecessary on a moulding that is only 30 mm high and a Hoffman is way overboard, as I stated earlier we make around 150 frames a week in an Almost identical moulding without issue.
Glue, underpin, bobs your uncle.

Looking at ops first post again, I see the moulding is moving, when being pinned, he already said the top clamp is near the moulding when starting, so I think there must be a problem there.

You said you have increased the pressure, on my alpha there is a pressure regulator underneath the machine, mine is set at 6 bar, so if I increase the pressure to the machine from the compressor it does not alter what the machine uses, I have to flip it up and alter the regulator underneath, not sure if yours is the same, there is also some other pressure knobs that can be altered, I have never had to though and Don't know what they do.
 
The VN2+1 does not have the high back fence like my VN42 or your Minigraph 4. The top clamp is also not floating like our machines so a different v-nailer eliminates many of the problems but some equipment is just not adaptable to some mouldings.
 
This is the sort of thing what I was talking about...

1291267418.jpg


Very handy if you are working on a big frame single-handed. You can glue up all four corners and strap it up. Tightening gradually lets you align the corners as it naturally tends pulls the corners 'right'.
Once it's all good you can safely take it to the pinner and/or add a few nails. The v-nails won't be able (we hope) to displace the join as it should be all solid as a rock.

The one in the picture uses a lever action to cinch it up. Methinks you could weld a bit on to extend the lever and afford yourself more muscle. ;)
 
Jeff Rodier said:
The VN2+1 does not have the high back fence like my VN42 or your Minigraph 4. The top clamp is also not floating like our machines so a different v-nailer eliminates many of the problems but some equipment is just not adaptable to some mouldings.
Click to expand...

In which case it may be worth investing in the better adjustable fence, eliminate all other possibilities first though before spending the wonga.
 
IFGL said:
I know many frames that glue clamp first and like you guys say they have never had a problem, my point is the underpinner was originally made and designed to do the clamping whilst the glue drys, if everything is set up correctly in the first place then gluing and clamping is completely unnecessary on a moulding that is only 30 mm high and a Hoffman is way overboard, as I stated earlier we make around 150 frames a week in an Almost identical moulding without issue.
Glue, underpin, bobs your uncle.

Looking at ops first post again, I see the moulding is moving, when being pinned, he already said the top clamp is near the moulding when starting, so I think there must be a problem there.

You said you have increased the pressure, on my alpha there is a pressure regulator underneath the machine, mine is set at 6 bar, so if I increase the pressure to the machine from the compressor it does not alter what the machine uses, I have to flip it up and alter the regulator underneath, not sure if yours is the same, there is also some other pressure knobs that can be altered, I have never had to though and Don't know what they do.
Click to expand...
Yep, I set the pressure using the regulator on the machine and monitor the machine's built-in gauge.
 
After some further testing, I found that driving the outer v-nail before the inner one resulted in a better (but not yet perfect) join. This seems to support my earlier hypothesis about the height of the back fence. The force from driving a v-nail in the inner position first would have a greater tendency to push the moulding both slightly up and backward, thus opening the face of the joint somewhat. I would think a higher back fence would resist that backward motion and therefore keep the joint closed. Just a thought.

Now if I can find a way to mock up a taller 90 degree fence to test this on my machine without having to resort to shelling out $400 on an adjustable-tilt fence. :eek:
 
DBarthel said:
Now if I can find a way to mock up a taller 90 degree fence to test this on my machine without having to resort to shelling out $400 on an adjustable-tilt fence. :eek:
Click to expand...

A local machine shop can attach an extended height fence to the existing piece. This would be done using some square bar stock and could be attached with counter sink machine screws from the under side so they could be removed if you have a moulding the would benefit from the lower fence like a shell back moulding.
 
Rob Markoff said:
...you owe it to yourself to consider owning a Hoffmann machine.
Click to expand...
Good advice here. The dovetail router is handy for some shallow-rabbet mouldings that are difficult to join, as well. At a fraction of the price for a good underpinner, it's a good investment.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top