"Industry Standard" for mat width?

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Janek_Kazimer

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Is there an official "industry standard" for mat width?

Sure, i know everyone's going to say "it depends on the size of the art" which, of course, to me sounds like the right answer. However, i work for a box store <insert groans now, i know> and they insist our goal is to get customers to purchase mats 4" or wider for even small prints, especially on small prints!

I don't feel comfortable saying to the customer that 4" is "industry standard" despite that our training manual says it is. I know 4" is not valid for every print that comes across the table, so i began saying "company standard" and this way i'm not lying, it is our company's standard whether its right or wrong.

But i did have a few smart customers who asked me, "What is 'industry standard' then??" Does such a number exist?

And i'm wondering what rules of thumbs are out there, like what things do you look for when selecting mats for prints? This way i can not only tell the smart customers what real frameshops do, but also try a few of those techniques myself.

Thanks!
-jk
 
Is there an official "industry standard" for mat width?
  • NO!
But i did have a few smart customers who asked me, "What is 'industry standard' then??" Does such a number exist?
  • NO!
Even if you were to poll framers on their average mat width for their shops and then average those numbers together it would be meaningless. One reason is you would never have all framers in the industry participate and the other it is kind of like families having 2.4 kids.

Best you can do is what you are doing and say it is your stores average suggested size. Now as far as does it look best for the piece, that is another can of worms.
 
I understand What you are saying, but your boss sets the standards for your store.

If Your customer wants smaller mats go with what they want.

I love large mats on small items as they give a sense of importance to the piece once it is on the wall.

I have worked in a few shops and each one has it's one "rules" some have insisted on only white or cream mats on top (personally welcome to the 80's and big yucky from me):vomit: however they paid my wage, others would not consider a large moulding. It is a shop owner thing and all I can say is go along with it. It is not worth your job or a bad reference to rock that boat.
 
I would stick to your answer about what is your company's standard.

The few customers who ask for industry standard; use a little humor and tell them you'll let them know when framers agree....:D
 
My standard is 3.25". That is what I have in my POS as the default. I override this all the time though. The 4" number was pushed as a way to increase profits.
 
The only "standard" I've ever heard about was for print competitions. The mats had to be white, with 3" top and sides and a 3 1/2" bottom. There are more "Rules of Thumb" than you can count, but no standards.
 
I think this discussion made me hit on a new concept.

My new store standard is:

Mat boarders are based on what ever is left when the image is centered on either a 33x40 or 40x60 matboard. No exceptions.
No more scraps of mat left over to worry about, and I only stock two size of glass and never have to cut it again. Thank your boss for the inspiration. :D
 
No "standard" here, but we use a guideline based on size.

If art is 8 x 10, mat margins are 2 inches
If art is 16 x 20, mat margins are 2.5 inches
If art is 22 x 28, mat margins are 3 inches
If art is 30 x 40, mat margins are 3.5 inches.

If it is a bright or dark color, that all changes. It's all relative to what you are framing.
 
Obviously it's not just the art size either ... the width of the frame has a big impact on whether the aesthetic is pleasing or not.
 
j Paul said:
Mat boarders are based on what ever is left when the image is centered on either a 33x40 or 40x60 matboard. No exceptions.
No more scraps of mat left over to worry about, and I only stock two size of glass and never have to cut it again. Thank your boss for the inspiration. :D
Click to expand...

It appears as if you will need a 27x40 size to use up the leftovers from your first size.:D
 
No Jeff, I aint gonna mess with what comes out of the middle, I'm throwing all the scrap away. Always charge for full sheets this way.

Just figured out I can order bunches of frames ahead of time from China by the buttload at 3240 & 4060 and save a ton that way also. Can get rid of most of my tools also. I will only need a mat cutter and a point driver and a few other hand tools. I think I'm on to something. :D


Oh now I see what you mean Jeff, it was just a typo after all, supposed to be 32x40 and 40x60
 
Hi, Janek! It's good to see you here again. :)

What Andrew said about frame widths bears
repeating, as well as Rick's comment about
mat widths. It's sort of a general guideline that
the amount of mat showing should be different
than the front view width of the frame. And
the frame width has a correlation to the mat
width as to visual balance.

Part of what determines frame width is the relative
size and boldness of the subject matter in the art.
Something like a pale painting with a few small flowers
could be drowned by a wide frame and mat, but
O'Keefe poppies can handle it. If you do sell mats
narrower than 4", will the company penalize you
in any way?
 
company guidlines, frumpity bylines.


Make the suggestion sure, but do what the customer wants.
 
one of my THREE employers is Ms; they suggest 4" margins. it pops up in a dialogue box in "frame magic" (ms pos software), to remind you, and make sure you dont wanna change your mind about the minimum borders----------freakin annoying!!

but anyhoo... the only rock-bottom, rule of thumb for ME is 2" minimum. whats the point of a mat much smaller than that? frame eats up 1/4"------1 and 3/4s left-----whats the point??

oh. by the by, ms does penalize framers/designers that use borders less than 3 1/16th inches. as well as many other stats in a report of your "design features summary". avg sale price, masterpc glass (as well as the other glazings), eg.

they have target percentages for ALL these "features".
penalties would be accountable in reviews and sech----blah, blah, blah...
 
I'm so glad I work at a shop where it's about
what's best for the art. I understand that if
you work there, you've got to do the best
you can within their parameters, but this just
makes me so thankful.
 
Heck, I got docked on a framing competition at a PPFA completion because my margins were to narrow. I argued that my margins were just fine because I used a double 8ply mat of the same color with a 1" reveal on the lower mat, 1/4" spacer, and a 1-1/2 border on the upper mat. The moulding was on 1-1/4". This "Certified Picture Framer" judge stated the "standard" on my matting width was not met so he docked me significantly.

I guess I'm also interested by this standard. My feeling is that it must look good - I advise my customer that they are the ones who have to be pleased with the look. I have seen 2" X 2" paintings that looked great with a 4-5" mat border. I believe it is a mater of taste, the type of art, and the moulding style/size that should determine the size of the mat border.

just my $0.02

Joe B
 
The only “rule” I ever heard and agree with is that the mat should be at least 1-1/2 times the width of the moulding.

After having heard that, to me, any mat width less than that looks cramped. It is something I just can’t get beyond.

Although those proportions that Beveled displayed above are pretty much what we recommend for the vast majority of designs.
 
Many years ago, I was taught that the mat should be at least double the width of the the frame. Thus a 1" frame, 2" mat; 2" frame, 4" mat. The wording has changed to "substantially wider than the frame". Mat samples were 2" wide. Many, many pieces were framed with 2" samples. Then came the 4" wide samples. Framers were excited to see these nice wide mats. I remember discussions about how can we get them, they wouldn't fit in the double tiered mat racks, and so on. But it would definitely make it easier to start selling wider mats and the general consensus was that wider mats looked better anyway. There were several discussions on the G about this nice turn of events.

Personally, I think anything 8x10 or larger looks better with a 3" minimum mat. You can add a v-groove nicely to something like that. Just remember that at the design counter and work counter, you are looking at that piece from about 15". When you look at it hanging on the wall from 4 ft or more, it will look smaller. The smaller the mat, the smaller the art.

I have under my counter, an 8x10 print drymounted to foam core. I made 4 mats to show what matting can do in the framing process. One mat is plain bright white, 2"; the next mat is a color that enhances the art, 2", the third mat is a softer white and a double mat the same color soft white, almost cream, 3", the fourth mat is all out for this art in color and is a double mat with a v-groove, 4" wide on the top mat. After I show the customer all four mats, I go back to the second 2" mat. 99% of my customers will go to a 3" mat.

Another thing that I have done is that if I have to really convince a customer that a wider mat is going to look better, I will guarantee it and we will cut it down to a smaller size. In 20 years, I can only remember doing it 3 or 4 times. Only one time can I remember that the customer liked it better after the fact. I had one this week that we cut down. First one in 5 years at least. When the customer picked it up, she actually said it did look better with 3", but she thought it would fit better where it was going to hang. Ok, that was one, my other customers are happy and I could tell that she was wishing inside that she hadn't had us cut it down.

It is all about proportion. I do not like to see a 2" mat with a 2" frame......it becomes too stripey for me. Most pieces that get a 3" frame will actually have a 3 1/4" mat to compensate for the lip of the frame.

I would even be willing to bet that the proportion in framing has something to do with the 80/20 rule. I just haven't been able to figure out how to calculate it.
 
Geeze... I try to sell 3 inch mats, or even 2 most the time..

customers take the sample with the mat on it and pull it all the way up to the picture... ie the mat sample is there but you can't see it under the frame..... UGH!!!! This happens WAY TO OFTEN!!!

I tell them that a larger mat will look better, but i can do whatever you really want me to.

they say, o well how much do you think... on smaller things i say, 2 inches, and on larger a min of 3 inches... they all say... o... i think 1 and a half inches will be plenty.... UGH

do any of you ever ask how big they want the mat, or do you just do what you think is best?

i do have samples up as well with matting... can't tell you how many people think the pictures with 2 and 1/4 inch mat on a 8x10 looks to large on it... its perfect... esp the one with the v-groove on it...
 
LOL Jason! (It is Jason...correct?)

Have you been getting some of my customers?? :p

I have to do alot of "convincing" for wider mats as well. I often say the mat needs to be somewhat wider than the frame...and keep pushing that moulding sample further out on the mat corner.

I am successful about 75% of the time, but many times I have to be insistent. However, they always seem to agree that I was right when they see it completed...:)
 
A lot of customers are afraid of wider mat widths. They think it will 'overpower' their art. (not my words)

I have a lot of my sample pieces with at least 4" mats.

I tell them that the purpose of framing is always to bring out the art to its best and fullest and frame/mat choice should never be the first thing you see.
Then I show them samples of what I mean and ask them; what do see you first, the mats/frame or the art. They always say 'the art'.
Then I proceed by telling them the widths of the mat borders.
Then we go back to whatever they brought in.

I always show them mat and frame and width of mat (by putting the moulding in the 'right' spot) and tell them that my natural and professional inclination would be to have this much mat showing.
By then they are almost always inclined to go with recommended as they can see how well the samples look and want their art to look great as well.

As always; it's in the sales technique, the presentation, the making the customer feel comfortable and understanding that you know what you are talking about.
You are the professional; act like one.

Now, don't think I'm pushy ;) I always listen to my customer and what they want. But the customers who is discussing mat border is usually the kind who is scared of anything else. A little education will help.
 
Yes, a lot of customers are afraid of wider mats.

When I am working with a customer, I don't discuss mat width in inches unless they bring it up. I will show them what I will be doing. If it is still a problem, I will tape the mats and frame together and hold everything up and have them stand back several feet. That seems to put it into perspective for the doubters.

Several years ago, I had two identical pictures come in from different customers. I had waited on one customer, someone else did the other one. My customer went with a 3" mat, the other piece had a 2" mat.

A third customer came in and couldn't decide whether to use 2 or 3. I pulled out the two finished pieces and had them side by side. The husband looked at the two pieces and very firmly made the decision to go 3".

Seriously, make a sample like I mentioned above. Just the mats and a photo. Make variations of mats, use different design elements. You could do a v-groove, french lines, photo corners, double mats, triple mats, fillets, etc. I only have four mats to change out on my sample, but the possibilities are endless.

I also tell them that one purpose of the mat is to give your eyes a place to rest as they are drawn into the art. When the frame is too close to the art, the framing will become more important, the wider the mat the more important the art becomes. Then I will bring the frame in and push it out as I am talking.

Most of the mats that I sell today are in the 3-5 range. Very small pieces will be 2.25 to 2.5.

Another thought too, is that houses today have high ceilings and large walls. Wider mats look better on those big spaces.
 
I agree, Ylva, and yes Pat you are right :)

I show them my examples, some actually say whatever you think is best... I do get a bit scared at this point if they almost wanted under an inch, but I do what i think is best, and never had one complaint.

Sometimes if they want so little, i will actually add in more on my own and charge them anyways, and no one ever notices or says anything :)

Sadly when my customers are thinking of the mat a lot of the time, they say they see the mat first over the art... eh... maybe i am just to creative what what i see :P
 
Candy said:
Another thought too, is that houses today have high ceilings and large walls. Wider mats look better on those big spaces.
Click to expand...

I wish this were true around here. most the houses were built back in the 50s...

they are small ramblers with small walls...
 
Puppies,

I never ask. I will show them how much, don't talk inches because the numbers seem to be more important than how it will look.

If someone has a big huge piece, 20x30 or larger and wants a 1 1/2" mat, I will look them in the eye and tell them that I can't guarntee that they will like the finished product. I will also bring out a carpy tiny frame that would be proportioned to the mat. I also tell them that that a small frame like that will not hold up under the weight of the finished product.

I have also learned that if you always smile while you are talking, your voice will always sound friendly, so that is important to not sounding like you are being pushy or bossy.

In the end, I do what the customer wants or if I know that it will look better but they are not sure, I will give them the guarantee. Then I tell them that I have rarely had to live up to the guarantee because most are happy in the end. :D
 
Puppies,

I thought about that as soon as I hit the post key. That does play a part so I probably wouldn't bring that thought up in the conversation.

I still think the best thing I have done for me is to make those samples for the one small print about 8x10 in size. They can touch it, look at it, and see the variations.
 
AMEN to all of that Candy.

I have had only a few occasions, where I had to cut a 1" mat on larger pieces. The only reason those customers have is that it has to fit a certain space on the wall.

I charge more; it's a pain to fit such a small mat border perfectly and make everything look straight when it's a large piece.
 
Being serious this time.

I have found that having a visualization system really helps people to see why we recommend the size mats that we do. I can easily show them why my choice of say a 3 or 4" mat looks better than their choice of a 1" mat. It also makes double and triple mats a much, much easier sale.
 
That's a very interesting insight into how BB stores operate. Sell as much material as you can no matter if the job needs it or not.
If it were industry standard, all matcutters would be permanently set to cut 4" margins.
 
The standard is whatever I say it is for the art.



Period. Done. 'nuff said. Don't like it? STUFF IT!!!
 
Other than a visualization system, the best way to sell larger mats is with plenty of framed samples on the wall. Display what you want to sell and you'll sell what you display.
 
Ylva said:
I have had only a few occasions, where I had to cut a 1" mat on larger pieces. The only reason those customers have is that it has to fit a certain space on the wall.

I charge more; it's a pain to fit such a small mat border perfectly and make everything look straight when it's a large piece.
Click to expand...

When it comes down to a 1" mat, I will direct them to a 1" frame with a wider frame layered over it. The glass is inserted between the frames because it can "act as the spacer so the glass doesn't touch the art." I am not a big fan of liners, but a small 1 or 1.5" frame can really make a nice "liner" when space is an issue. I don't mind selling a layered frame in place of mats either.
 
No standards, what looks good rules, what make the customer happy is #1.

"Trust me, you'll love it", then do it my way, saves time at the counter.

I do use the rule that the mat and frame must not be the same width. This is most important in wider mouldings IMHO.

my2cents

framer
 
"If you get it home and you think the mats are too wide, bring it back and I can cut it down. On the other hand if you get it home and the mats are too narrow...."
 
UzZx32QU said:
"Trust me, you'll love it", then do it my way, saves time at the counter.
Click to expand...

I have found that is much easier than explaining to them that they are 2' from the sample and that is why the mat looks wide. I also use 9" Chevron moulding samples so that tends to reduce the number of customers trying to push the moulding corner closer to the art during design. Sometimes I just point to something framed on the wall and say "like that" and they say yes.

The wider the mouding the less the sample shows next to the mat and art. 9" samples make it easier to show what it looks like without Visualization systems. Like Framer says just agree and then frame it so it looks nice.
 
UzZx32QU said:
No standards, what looks good rules, what make the customer happy is #1.

"Trust me, you'll love it", then do it my way, saves time at the counter.

I do use the rule that the mat and frame must not be the same width. This is most important in wider mouldings IMHO.

my2cents

framer
Click to expand...

And the corollary, when the customer thinks she wants a 1" mat:

"Well, we could do that, but I don't think you're going to be happy with it."

It does two things: Puts the burden of a bad decision on the customer, and gets the point across that you're looking out for her best interests.
 
I once saw some oriental miniature ivory paintings about 1" sq in mats about 30x40". OTT you might think, but they were on a museum wall which was vast and plain. So in that particular situation they looked just right.
 
FramerDave said:
And the corollary, when the customer thinks she wants a 1" mat:

"Well, we could do that, but I don't think you're going to be happy with it."

It does two things: Puts the burden of a bad decision on the customer, and gets the point across that you're looking out for her best interests.
Click to expand...

I like this approach ............

"And the corollary, when the customer thinks she wants a 1" mat:

"Well, we could do that, but I don't think you're going to be happy with it."

It does two things: Puts the burden of a bad decision on the customer, and gets the point across that you're looking out for her best interests. "

and I like this approach.......................
 
Dave said:
The standard is whatever I say it is for the art.



Period. Done. 'nuff said. Don't like it? STUFF IT!!!
Click to expand...



A kind and very concerned Grumbler PM'd and asked where my anger was coming from... I guess this should have been all in GREEN!It was an attempt at humor and I was, of course, being facetious.

I apologize if anyone took me seriously and told any customers to STUFF IT!!!

;)
 
I have a "Minute Speech" for the thin mat scenario. It goes something like this:

There are at least three reasons for a mat.

First, a mat separates the glass from the art. Today we can use spacers instead, but that's why mats were developed in the first place.
[Show sample of glass spacer]

Second, a mat can be a decorative element to emphasize or de-emphasize certain colors, or to coordinate with the decor. Generally, I suggest using a top mat that has less color intensity than the colors in the art. Some people mistakenly believe that a wide mat overpowers the art. No, if the mat overpowers the art, it's because of distracting color, not width.
[Show the eight display samples of 9x12 art on the wall; one with no mat, and seven with various mats up to 8" wide. The only distracting sample has a 1" bright blue mat that 'shines' from across the room.]

Third, a proper mat makes the entire frame assembly larger and gives the art more visual importance. A wider mat creates more visual importance. Conversely, a narrow mat denotes less importance.

So, if this frame is to be a focal point in the room, I'd suggest a wider mat. If it is to be less visually dominant and blend with the surroundings, then a narrower mat, or no mat at all, may be more appropriate. The choice is yours, and should be based on your intentions for this project, in terms of visual importance.

Once in a while we end up with a thin mat, but not often. Usually a wider mat is selected, or perhaps no mat at all. In any case, we remove price as the primary decision point, and the customer is prepared to make an informed decision. Most important, the decision is hers, not mine, so she owns it, and buyers' remorse is no longer an issue.
 
what training manual?


Janek_Kazimer said:
Is there an official "industry standard" for mat width?

Sure, i know everyone's going to say "it depends on the size of the art" which, of course, to me sounds like the right answer. However, i work for a box store <insert groans now, i know> and they insist our goal is to get customers to purchase mats 4" or wider for even small prints, especially on small prints!

I don't feel comfortable saying to the customer that 4" is "industry standard" despite that our training manual says it is. I know 4" is not valid for every print that comes across the table, so i began saying "company standard" and this way i'm not lying, it is our company's standard whether its right or wrong.

But i did have a few smart customers who asked me, "What is 'industry standard' then??" Does such a number exist?

And i'm wondering what rules of thumbs are out there, like what things do you look for when selecting mats for prints? This way i can not only tell the smart customers what real frameshops do, but also try a few of those techniques myself.

Thanks!
-jk
Click to expand...
 
About 3 weeks ago, I had a customer come back and tell me that the 3" mats on her stitchery were too large. The piece was really very nice, but she didn't like the 3" mats. I went over with her all the things that had been discussed here. I also told her that the very few times I have cut the mats and frame down after the fact, doing so was actually met with disappointment. She stuck with her decision to have them cut down to 2". When she picked up the cut down piece, she looked at it and said, "I see what you mean." And then she still tried to justify her decision. I think she was a bit disappointed at this point but didn't really want to admit it.
 
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