Question Help with gluing satin fabric to MDF/ranger board

[archivegirl72]

Hello all I am so happy to have found such a knowledgable and helpful community!

I am in the process of making some art where I want to glue shiny white fabric onto CNC engraved ranger board/MDF. I have been playing with 3M Super 77 but after reading through many threads I see now that is not the best solution! I have used Delta Creative's Sobo Premium Craft & Fabric Glue in the past because that is what my local art supply store recommended. So far that glue has held up well and worked well for the job of gluing vinyl coated cotton to plywood. But I am unable to use that now with this shiny white fabric as the Sobo glue bleeds through the fabric and ruins the fabric's shine and is blotchy.

Is there any adhesive that would be archival and not soak through that anyone can recommend?

I have attached two photos, the first is the glue example with the Sobo glue where it is bleeding through (has been dry for many days now), and the second photo is the glue sample using the 3M 77 where it looks great but as you all know, bad hold and bad long term.
thank you!

 

[wpfay]

Hi, and welcome to the G.

You might want to look into heat reactivated PVA glue designed specifically for mounting fabric..
It can be applied and allowed to set before adding the fabric, thus avoiding bleeding.
A heated vacuum press is ideal for achieving desired results

Check with Frank's Fabrics, or Raphael's Fabrics for the product.

 

[archivegirl72]

Hi, and welcome to the G.

You might want to look into heat reactivated PVA glue designed specifically for mounting fabric..
It can be applied and allowed to set before adding the fabric, thus avoiding bleeding.
A heated vacuum press is ideal for achieving desired results

Check with Frank's Fabrics, or Raphael's Fabrics for the product.

Hey wpfay thanks! would you say an iron would work well in place of a heated vacuum press?

 

[Bruce Papier]

Firstly, if you're going to put it MDF the archival part may be a moot point due to the composition of the MDF.

As far as the iron goes- yeah, if it's hot enough. I think Lamin-all and similar products bond at around 200 or 225 (I might not be remembering correctly. It's been a while since I've used it). It may take some effort to get the surface that hot.

 

[wpfay]

Hey wpfay thanks! would you say an iron would work well in place of a heated vacuum press?

Depending on the flatness of the substrate, yes, but unlike Laminal, fabric glue (PVA) bonds at a lower temperature (140-150F). The adhesive can be reactivated with heat, but you should probably do some testing with the fabric and substrate before going all-in with the technique.
The advantage of a heated vacuum press is the combination of heat and pressure over an extended time.

Another product is Acrylic Gel Medium which behaves much the same as fabric glue. The "Gloss" varieties seem to have a better bond with fabric, but that is strictly anecdotal.

I agree with Bruce about MDF and other composition boards made for the construction industry. The binder is often a urea-formaldehyde product and the aggregate is ground wood. Both are full of potential acidity. All you need is a little oxygen.

 

[Rick Hennen]

I can only comment on Miracle Muck because it is the one PVA I am most familiar with and Wally is correct. It heat activates at about 145 degrees. If anyone is considering MDF as a substrate and is concerned about MDF and formaldehydes, there are several MDF products that are created with "No Added Formaldehyde". Just do a search for NAF MDF products. I believe Plum Creek brand offers one. In addition, the CARB II air quality requirements for wood products that was adopted by California many years ago (and I believe has since been adopted through out the country) drastically limits the amount of formaldehyde based emissions allowable. Years ago we did an internal test comparing the ph of Basswood and MDF just because it was the 2 substrates we used most. We found that the MDF was more alkaline than Basswood. Disclaimer here: this was not a test done by an independent certified lab and I am not suggesting that Basswood or MDF are archival. They are not.

 

[archivegirl72]

Firstly, if you're going to put it MDF the archival part may be a moot point due to the composition of the MDF.

As far as the iron goes- yeah, if it's hot enough. I think Lamin-all and similar products bond at around 200 or 225 (I might not be remembering correctly. It's been a while since I've used it). It may take some effort to get the surface that hot.

Depending on the flatness of the substrate, yes, but unlike Laminal, fabric glue (PVA) bonds at a lower temperature (140-150F). The adhesive can be reactivated with heat, but you should probably do some testing with the fabric and substrate before going all-in with the technique.
The advantage of a heated vacuum press is the combination of heat and pressure over an extended time.

Another product is Acrylic Gel Medium which behaves much the same as fabric glue. The "Gloss" varieties seem to have a better bond with fabric, but that is strictly anecdotal.

I agree with Bruce about MDF and other composition boards made for the construction industry. The binder is often a urea-formaldehyde product and the aggregate is ground wood. Both are full of potential acidity. All you need is a little oxygen.

Would it help the MDF potential acidity problem if i sealed the MDF with something?

i did not consider that MDF problem, maybe plaster would have been a better substrate.

The fabric pva glue + iron seems like the most practical solution for me currently as the substrate will be large measuring 46x31 inches so letting the glue set then ironing on the fabric seems like it will give the most even results.

Thnx so much!

 

[archivegirl72]

I can only comment on Miracle Muck because it is the one PVA I am most familiar with and Wally is correct. It heat activates at about 145 degrees. If anyone is considering MDF as a substrate and is concerned about MDF and formaldehydes, there are several MDF products that are created with "No Added Formaldehyde". Just do a search for NAF MDF products. I believe Plum Creek brand offers one. In addition, the CARB II air quality requirements for wood products that was adopted by California many years ago (and I believe has since been adopted through out the country) drastically limits the amount of formaldehyde based emissions allowable. Years ago we did an internal test comparing the ph of Basswood and MDF just because it was the 2 substrates we used most. We found that the MDF was more alkaline than Basswood. Disclaimer here: this was not a test done by an independent certified lab and I am not suggesting that Basswood or MDF are archival. They are not.

I will definitely explore some better options than this Ranger Board MDF i am currently using but I can’t switch now as the CNC machine is cutting out my pieces as I type this, ha!

For the Miracle Muck, would I foam roll it onto the MDF, let it dry to tacky, lay down fabric, then iron at 145 degree F?

Thank you!

 

[wpfay]

For the Miracle Muck, would I foam roll it onto the MDF, let it dry to tacky, lay down fabric, then iron at 145 degree F?

Thank you!

That's basically the process, but again, I suggest some experimentation.
Use an ironing cloth.
I use a very thin knap 3" foam roller (1/8") when applying fabric glue to a primed wooden substrate.
The fabric glues are transparent when dry and depending on the weight and translucence of the fabric the color of the MDF might "ghost" through.
Priming with an opaque white acrylic sealer might be in order, and it certainly wouldn't hurt as far as mitigating any acidity.
If you are covering anything other than a flat board, a "folding iron" will come in handy for detail work. Hanger 9 makes a nice one that has good heat control.

 

[JFeig]

MDF is fine as a construction product. It however, was not designed as a product that meets art conservation requirements. The main portion of the composition of any MDF is unprocessed wood pulp that contains the original lignin from all trees.

 

[Rick Hennen]

I will definitely explore some better options than this Ranger Board MDF i am currently using but I can’t switch now as the CNC machine is cutting out my pieces as I type this, ha!

For the Miracle Muck, would I foam roll it onto the MDF, let it dry to tacky, lay down fabric, then iron at 145 degree F?

Thank you!

The manner in which we use the adhesive varies with the type and weight of the fabric being used. When the fabric is linen weight, something like 6 oz/sq yd or heavier we would apply a thin even coat of the adhesive with a foam roller, and lay the fabric down while it is still wet. Use very light pressure when applying the fabric. Heavy pressure will cause the adhesive to bleed through. This would also apply to a 2 ply satin type fabric but in this case we would let the adhesive tack off for a very short period of time.. When adhering silks the adhesive is allowed to set and then laid down and heat activated. Even though this is our primary business, we have not found it necessary to own a heat press. If heat is required we use either a standard clothing iron or a tacking iron. Side note: the amount of humidity in your shop will greatly affect the way the adhesive reacts. We frequently need to shut off the AC because the adhesive is tacking off too quickly. Lots of practice over 36 years and we might have it down.

 

[Rick Hennen]

Sorry - had to step away. I may get crucified here but there are probably some costings like Camger or other forms of acrylic primers etc that may help mitigate the migration of bad stuff in a frame package. We did some work for the Library of Congress and a Camger coating, at the time, was spec'd out by them for those projects. That does NOT make them archival but it would just depend on how far down the archival path you want to travel. And of course there is the fabric. I've been involved with developing and importing linens, silks and cottons for several decades and I am not aware of any commercially available textiles that would be considered acceptable to be used in an archival frame package. Many years ago we worked with a Belgian mill to have one of our linen/cotton blend fabrics fabricated to be as archival as possible. The mill would certify it to be "neutral" which actually meant within a range of 6.5 to 7.5 and they would send the fabric to a processing factory in Italy to have the lignin removed. So it was the closest we could get to an archival textile. This process is no longer available. Sorry for being so long winded.

 

[archivegirl72]

Sorry - had to step away. I may get crucified here but there are probably some costings like Camger or other forms of acrylic primers etc that may help mitigate the migration of bad stuff in a frame package. We did some work for the Library of Congress and a Camger coating, at the time, was spec'd out by them for those projects. That does NOT make them archival but it would just depend on how far down the archival path you want to travel. And of course there is the fabric. I've been involved with developing and importing linens, silks and cottons for several decades and I am not aware of any commercially available textiles that would be considered acceptable to be used in an archival frame package. Many years ago we worked with a Belgian mill to have one of our linen/cotton blend fabrics fabricated to be as archival as possible. The mill would certify it to be "neutral" which actually meant within a range of 6.5 to 7.5 and they would send the fabric to a processing factory in Italy to have the lignin removed. So it was the closest we could get to an archival textile. This process is no longer available. Sorry for being so long winded.

Super interesting! My main goal in my inquiry is to find the best adhesive that will hold the fabric and not give out after a year if someone were to purchase my art. I am working with bridal fabrics that I am unsure of their composition entirely so this I all a bit of a crap shoot with crossed fingers.

I purchased a couple of types of Golden acrylic medium (soft gel semi-gloss & heavy gel semi-gloss) to test out. I am unfortunately on a time crunch and so I am unable to get Miracle Muck or something similar in time and I am limited in general with what I have locally available surprisingly.