Question Hanging solution for extremely narrow frame

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C

CAGallery

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
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Jun 14, 1999
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Brooklyn, NY
We are looking for a hanging solution for a closed corner frame similar to the photo below. The face is 1/2" but the frame itself is 1/4" wide.

We are considering flanger hangers but are open to suggestion.

narrow frame.jpg
 
Frame size? Depth? Overall weight when done?
Wiithout a strainer the sides will eventually bow inward from the stress of the wire. If it is a big enough frame I would use Wallbuddies. If there is room for a strainer, even better.
 
Assuming that you weren't foolish enough to use this moulding for a frame larger than about 12 x 16, then Flangers would be a good choice.

Another trick that I have used on these frames is to put two sawtooth hangers near the ends of the top rail. This will prevent the rail from bowing, as it would if you used only one.

If the little old lady has talked you into using this frame for a 16x20, then things get a little dicier....
 
EllenAtHowards said:
If the little old lady has talked you into using this frame for a 16x20, then things get a little dicier....
Click to expand...

Actually it wasn't a little old lady, it was a very young lady who wanted the "minimalist" look as in no frame.

The frame has corners that are splined and we didn't realize how narrow the frame was as we ordered it without a sample (we saw a larger sample).

I looked into the wall buddies but I don't think it will work for 1/4" width.
 
The composition of the wood would make a big difference. Without knowing its strength, I'd be scared to recommend anything for cc. Anything else, I'm sure flangers would be fine.

Is it basswood?

I'd try calling the maker to see what they'd recommend. That way, if it flops...its at least their recommendation.
 
janetj1968 said:
The composition of the wood would make a big difference. Without knowing its strength, I'd be scared to recommend anything for cc. Anything else, I'm sure flangers would be fine.

Is it basswood?

I'd try calling the maker to see what they'd recommend. That way, if it flops...its at least their recommendation.
Click to expand...

We called yesterday and they had no idea what to recommend. I just e-mailed asking for the composition as I figured it would be helpful. I will post as soon as I hear.
 
The double sawtooth idea reminded me of something. You can put one end of each of the sawteeth (sawtooths?) on the top rail and the other on the vertical rail and have a slight slope to it a la Wallbuddies. This would transfer some of the weight to the vertical rails and help prevent the top rail from bowing upward. I would bore out the holes in the sawtooth hangers and use a #2 x 3/8" pan head screw to attach as opposeed to the 3/8" CC nails that come with.
 
wpfay said:
The double sawtooth idea reminded me of something. You can put one end of each of the sawteeth (sawtooths?) on the top rail and the other on the vertical rail and have a slight slope to it a la Wallbuddies. This would transfer some of the weight to the vertical rails and help prevent the top rail from bowing upward. I would bore out the holes in the sawtooth hangers and use a #2 x 3/8" pan head screw to attach as opposeed to the 3/8" CC nails that come with.
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Wally...would you drill a guide hole in the frame too? Or do you think a #4 is small enough?
 
1/4" frame back

Frames made of stock this thin present a physics challenge, since they are too narrow to permit the use of screws that are run from the inside of the frame pointing outward, as they often are in strainers and hanging devices. Even if the screw did not puncture the outside of the frame, they will have little purchase in the wood. If the frame has strips of Tyvek glued with PVA to its rabbet wall, these strips can be adhered to a solid backing board, like Dibond or D-lite, with hot melt glue to pull the sides of the frame tight. The hainging device can be built into the support/backinb board, before the frame is closed, by running flat head bolts through the sheet (head side in) and fixing D-ring hangers to these with nuts. This is a support system and will not create a sealed package, since the Tyvek is quite open.



Hugh
 
See this thread for a job I did back in 2006 with a frame that was too thin even for the smallest flangers and was 19 x 14.3/8. Apparently it is still hanging just fine :)
 
preservator said:
If the frame has strips of Tyvek glued with PVA to its rabbet wall, these strips can be adhered to a solid backing board, like Dibond or D-lite, with hot melt glue to pull the sides of the frame tight.
Click to expand...

This sounds interesting but I want to make sure that I understand this suggestion.

We take Tyvek strips and cut them longer than the depth of the frame and glue them to the rabbet wall.

Then take something like Dibond and use that as a support/backing board, affix hanging system to it, put it into the frame that has already been fit with the artwork package, and take the Tyvek strip and then bend it over (from the rabbet wall) onto the Dibond and glue it closed?

The hainging device can be built into the support/backinb board, before the frame is closed, by running flat head bolts through the sheet (head side in) and fixing D-ring hangers to these with nuts.
Click to expand...

What depth Dibond should be used? And should D-ring hangers be used with wire?
 
Normal 2mm Dibiond should be stong enough to take the load and a wire between the D-ring could be used with little chance of causing deformation of the Dibond. The Tyvek should be pulled snuggly onto the back of the Dibond and should be adhered well with hot melt, there, but as a result, the backing support will hold the thin sides of the frame and prevent their flexing outward, as the frame is handled. In this sense, this design does what old frames did when they had nails that were stitched through dense backing boards and the frame sides were locked in, thus.



Hugh
 
preservator said:
Normal 2mm Dibiond should be stong enough to take the load and a wire between the D-ring could be used with little chance of causing deformation of the Dibond.
Hugh
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I am not familiar with Dibond but understand from what you are saying that it should be strong enough to take the load. However, it seems that the only thing that will be supporting the Dibond and the hanging system is the Tyvek attached to the wall of the frame. Is Tyvek really strong enough to support this? Or did I misunderstand the procedure?
 
For that minimalist look you really should be looking at the Neilsen 121-122-123-124 series. You get thin faces and strong backs for hangers.
 
Bob Doyle said:
For that minimalist look you really should be looking at the Neilsen 121-122-123-124 series. You get thin faces and strong backs for hangers.
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We looked at that and loads of other things. If I recall correctly those didn't come in the color needed. The customer also liked a closed corner frame.
 
It can be really difficult to meet some people's needs can't it? :) I just recall all the frames that I used really thin mouldings on years ago. I wonder how many of them failed, and thus how many customers I lost... :shrug:
 
Speaking of Nielsen, would it be possible to tuck a Nielsen inside of this frame, say a 33 profile that would tuck right under the rabbet without showing?

edie the thinkinoutloud goddess
 
I would never use a profile that thin without a strainer, because any hardware you screw into wood that thin WILL fail eventually. You could fasten the frame to the strainer from the outside, using brass or other decent-looking flat-head screws in counter-sunk holes so that the heads are flush with the frame, similar to the way welded metal fames are done.
:cool: Rick
 
Hi, Chavie! I'm always glad to see you post.
What size is the frame going to be?
 
Back in the olden days when we had the granddaddy of aluminum frames, the metal clad frame, the wood was way too soft and narrow for any kind of hanger. We devised a method of hanging that was perfect (maybe not so good from an archival point of view) which consisted of 1/8th inch masonite with D-rings riveted into place and wire as usual. Then we used then-available water activated paper tape to seal the package.

The rivets were the secret ingredient!!!
 
I've used rivets to make my own fabric covered easelbacks....so I was thinking of that when reading this thread.

Then I went out to my building, pulled out my rivet gun and realized I'm out of hardware. And that started me thinking of alternatives....

I just sent Chavie an idea of mine, to use paper fasteners through d-rings...through tyvek and sized foam... the back of the fasteners are taped (to secure them and help protect the artwork). If you need more strength, you can put it through aluminum as previously suggested.

That way (providing you can use framer's points), you can fit the frame as normal, trim the tyvek...with no holes in the dustcover. Nice looking hardware.

**patent pending**

bahahahaha ;)
 
janetj1968 said:
Most cherry is soft, unless its Brazilian.
Click to expand...

North American Cherry is one of the soft-er domestic hardwoods, but still quite a bit harder than basswood, poplar, pines, or most other softwoods typically used in gilded frames. It should hold a screw very well if pre-drilled with the proper size drill bit.

The biggest concern, as already addressed, is the strength of the moulding and therefore its ability to resist bending due to stress. Choosing a method that minimizes stress and/or spreads it over a larger area will be key.
 
Narrowing down the solutions

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. We are narrowing it down as we have to get it done -- and there are several pieces, not one. Why is it when we overlook something it has to be in quantity!?!?

Wally suggested sawtooth hangers ala Wall Buddies - I think we are elminating this as we would still have to screw it into the narrow 1/4" part of the frame.

Andrew referred us to another thread but I don't understand the aluminum loop hangers. Where is it attached to?

Edie suggested tucking in a Nielsen frame under the lip of the frame - we looked into that but it won't work - they are either too wide or too deep.

Randy asked if there was enough depth for a strainer. We could put in a 3/8" strainer but to what would we attach it? And then there is the issue of how far can it be separated from the photograph. We can put a rag board behind it and one or two layers of foamcore but I am not sure that will be enough. We could also coat the strainer with what we use when we frame expensive paintings on canvas right up against the frame (the name of it slipped my mind).

Hugh suggested something that sounded really good to us but I am still not sure that I understand it properly. And then there is the issue of where to get Dibond and at what cost. I was then thinking what about if we use the tyvek on the rabbet wall and pull it snugly around some sort of back board and then use flangers - (they are supposed to be good for 1/4" frames). This way the Tyvek would add extra support for the frame even if the flangers put some stress on the frame.

Janet suggested using paper fasteners but I am worried that they would eventually open due to the stress.

Janet's suggestion got me thinking though and what about looping a wire in and out of some sort of backboard such as coroplast, fitting it in with framers points (the frame does work with that) and then making a slit in the dustcover for this wire to hang from?
 
I believe Andrew's solution (which is a good one) is to slit two slits into the aluminum side by side, and run the wire through it.
 
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