Opinions Wanted Framing a Extremely Large Flag

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thedarkroom

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Hi all... A customer has come in with a large flag measuring 61"x82" (this measurement is only having the bottom tassels sticking out).
They want 3" of black border surrounding the flag (67"x90" window dimensions). There are gold tassels that surround the entire flag... the customer realizes that only the bottom tassels will hang down properly (unless someone has advice on how to get the tassels to stick out on the other 2 sides).
This is a very large project and I have never encountered one this large.
I explained that with something this size, the job may not be completely archival or archival at all.

Can anyone offer some advice on this or has anyone worked with a flag of this size?

Every frame shop in town has turned them down already and they wanted this piece to be the focal point of their new restaurant.

I didn't think this was impossible, but its definitely out of my experience.

Thanks...Danielle
 

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I have done a few large flags this size none with tassels. I mounted on a linen covered rag board backed with gator baord, spacers and acrylic and a sturdy strainer inside the frame.

As far as tassels go I suppose you could hold them in place by using a strip of mylar or toole fabric which would be nearly invisible.

Just make sure the stars and blue field are in the upper right hand corner.
 
1. Build a large strainer frame, reinforced as necessary.

2. Stretch fiberglass window screen material over strainers.

3. Cover with a layer of thin polyester quilt batting, then stretch the black fabric over that.

4. Sew. You'll be able to hide the stitches nicely by placing them in the seams of the stripes and in the stars.

5. Profit.

Don't worry about the tassels, just let them hang naturally. That type of flag was never meant to be displyed like that, only hanging from a flagpole.

Remember that when a flag is displayed in this manner, the blue union is always in the upper left corner no matter whether displayed vertically or horizontally.
 
Here at ica-art conservation in Cleveland, Ohio, we do Civil War flags all the time, with needle-punched batting or cotton felt, and polyester fabric (without chemical finishes) over virgin coroplast attached to a wood frame, with wood behind where one sheet of coro meets another.. Sometimes the flags are pressure-mounted, sometimes sewn down, which would probably be the case with this one with all that fringe. The fringe also means spacers will be necessary . The biggest expense is the UV filtering acrylic glazing, which will need to be at least 1/4 inch thick. www.ica-artconservation.org
 
The ICA is the Intermuseum Conservation Association............. a great resource.

I took a 2 week workshop in picture frame conservation from Jonathan Thorton there.
 
Ok... so which is it... upper LEFT or upper RIGHT??


One of you is going home tonite and the winner goes onto the next round.
 
Upper Left.
 
When the flag is displayed in a manner other than by being flown from a staff, it should be displayed flat, whether indoors or out. When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window it should be displayed in the same way, that is with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street. When festoons, rosettes or drapings are desired, bunting of blue, white and red should be used, but never the flag.


Sorry, Randy you lose, but we do have some nice parting gifts for you. Please feel free to pick something from the warped column as our way of saying thank you for playing.
 
A variant of FramerDave's method is to use a solid backboard (Coroplast on wooden strainer, covered with needlepunched polyester padding, covered with washed fabric (the more tooth for the show fabric the better). The padding and show fabric are wrapped to the reverse of the coroplast or strainer and secured there, not glued overall.

The flag is then centered in whatever the correct orientation is (!) blocked using pins, and stitched in place using fine curved needles along stripes and edges as Dave suggests. Nice, fine, needles are available from fine science tools http://www.finescience.ca/commerce/misc/srhkeyword.cz the largest size is the best.

If you do use the screening that Dave suggests be sure to have a rigid backboard on the reverse of the frame (e.g. Coroplast) to prevent air from filtering through the package.
 
framah said:
Sorry, Randy you lose, but we do have some nice parting gifts for you. Please feel free to pick something from the warped column as our way of saying thank you for playing.
Click to expand...


Opps my bad dyslexic today
 
Randy... my problem with how it is to be hung is that when it is vertical, and the union is on the left, it looks backwards to me. Doesn't it?

My mind wants to take the flag as it naturally is seen and just make one 90 degree turn to the right and there you go. :faintthud:

But them's the rules.
 
Part one - had to break my reply into two parts as it exceeded the Grumble single post length.

Since the OP said they have never done a project of this scale before - I thought I would add to the mix. Our shop handles large projects all the time and I will confirm that this is "not just an oversized" project. There are good reasons that shops have turned down a project of this scale and I applaud them for their self honesty.

Before I would take on even bidding a project of this scale I would try to determine several things - and these aren't even the technical aspects of the project.

1. What is the client's budget for this project? If they say "I don't know" - you already have a problem. It is important to determine if they even have a realistic idea of what something like this costs, and if they reply that they want to spend less than $1,000 - you need not proceed any further.

2. You brought up the "A" word - as in archival. What is the provenance of the flag? Is it purely for decorative purposes? What will the lighting conditions be where it will be installed? Archival framing materials and techniques have a completely different set of criteria and pricing than a purely decorative display. And, there are "levels" of archivability; from the use of the internal components of the framing to the glazing.

3. Let's review your capabilities. First of all, do you have a space large enough to properly work on something of this size? Do you have the manpower? It is at a minimum a three person job to properly move this piece around while fitting.

What is your current work flow? Can you concurrently work on other pieces while you are working on this piece? If this piece will straddle all of your fitting tables, can you continue to do other work? We have 8' x 8' work areas but even so, this is a BIG piece and will take up space while being worked on and after completion. What if you finish on time but they are not ready for delivery? edited to add: I just got off the phone from a framer in Idaho who had me expedite some BEVA to him so he could complete a project for a restaurant - 57" x 101" that he now has sitting in his shop because the restaurant was "delayed" in opening - and it is taking up a LOT of space :) - so it can happen.

From a technical point, we would sew/attach a flag like this and then stand it vertically for at least a few days to see what effect gravity has on the sewing. Much easier to add or adjust stitches before it is fit :). So, do you have a place for it to be while it is resting?

A piece this size would not fit into our van and we would have to rent a truck to properly transport it. Do you have access to a truck? Adequate insurance to transport it (and insure the truck?)

Moving a piece of this size requires special handling. Do you own forearm forklifts? Makes moving something this large much easier and makes you look more professional on the job. http://www.forearmforklift.com/

4. Materials availability- do you have vendors who can deliver the materials needed to complete the job? I would not consider acrylic less than 3/16". Do you have the ability to cut it?

In another thread, the expansion of large acrylic was largely (and foolishly) dismissed. I beg to differ. A piece of acrylic this large and made from 3/16" material WILL expand more than the standard 1/8" allowance usually built into frames. If we were doing the job, whatever moulding we would be using would have a modified lip or an expansion slot cut into the frame so the acrylic would not "pop" the joint after the piece is on the wall.

Continued
 
Part two

OK onto some "technical" aspects.

Other posters have suggested "covering" a platform with some form of fabric. Good idea in concept. Where will you find a black fabric large enough to do so? Especially "polyester fabric without chemical finishes?"

Same for the 3/16" - 1/4" acrylic (especially UV filtering) You will need a piece 72 x 96. Do you have a resource? Sometimes for large pieces of acrylic, we have to bring them in by truck or train. And, again do you have a means to cut it?

The "sourcing" of materials and the time spent in engineering (including consultation on the Grumble) has a value and should be charged for.

My personal experience on things this large is that a framework of wood covered by screening material may not be structurally rigid enough - and if used, may also require the use of a heavier frame to support the significantly greater weight of the acrylic.

If I were to do this project, (again without regard to 100% archival framing) here is how we would handle it.

1. Construct a wood strainer with cross supports of 5/8 x 1-1/2" pine such as Universal MSB06. I would buy much more than needed to assure that it is all straight and warp free.

2. I would cover the platform with 3/16" natural gator that is contact cemented to the strainer at all points. I would probably use several pieces of the gator and join the seams over the cross supports. Contact cementing the gator to the cross supports will make a very rigid and lightweight platform. An alternative is to use coroplast, but your seams will never be as flat and unless you use two layers of coroplast with the flutes running at opposing directions, it will not be as rigid.

3. The visible area of the perimeter of the flag is what is important. I would rip 4-5" wide strips of gator, mitre them (taking into consideration the thickness of the fabric used to wrap them) and cover them as a mitred wrap to surround the platform. The flag will overlap the strips and all you will see is the fabric covered portion. This will also allow you a significantly greater amount of fabric to choose from. If the fabric (as blacks tend to do) has a weave that is open enough for you to see the tan color of the gator through it, I would gesso the strips with black gesso before covering them with fabric.

4. The area inside the strips needs to be built up to make a level surface. I would either use black gator glued with dots of PVA adhesive (or fabric adhesive) or black coroplast. Both materials would allow the flag to be sewn through. If you are concerned with what the flag is resting on, you could line the gator with marvelseal.

5. From your photo, it appears the fringe is twisted multi stranded cord. If so, you can easily shoot Attach-EZ fasteners inside the tassels (yes it is a lot of work) and they would hold fine. You could also color the fasteners using the pigment pens Pat sells to make them hide better. Where the wood platform crosses where attachment points are, you will have to drill small holes (I like a Dremel tool with a #50 bit (available from United). You can use nylon thread to make the attachment at those points. Same for areas of the flag where the wood crosses the attachment point. If this is not an alternative, count the tassels, figure out how long you think it would take to sew one, and then double it. Now you have a time factor x your shop rate for just sewing the fringe. I do not trust a compression fit on something this large. I KNOW from experience that compression fits fail.

The area where the body of the flag meets the tassel looks like a good area to attach the flag, but you want to be sure that any stitches also hold some aspect of the striped material and not just the tassel border. In addition, you may also need to put some stitches in the body of the flag. The problem is that if you put batting behind the flag it will exacerbate the “pulls” of the sewn points and it may not be aesthetically pleasing unless done very evenly. Nonetheless, it is something that also needs to be confirmed with the client prior to commencement as it is hard to undo if they are not happy. You may also want them to see the sewn piece before it is put into the frame.

6. I already mentioned either enlarging the lip of the frame or cutting an expansion slot. Selection of a moulding that can support the weight of the acrylic is also important. If you choose a deep(er) moulding (since your platform will be at least ¾-1” thick, plus spacer thickness plus acrylic thickness) like Studio 23401, how will you join it? The majority of the weight will be at the lip. Even if you stack 2 5/8” v-nails, you may not get adequate support at the top of the joint. This is also a time to clamp and wait. An appropriate clamp for tall mouldings is a bonus. Here is the best one I know of but it costs almost $500 per clamp. So, if you own one, there is a value to having/owning one. And, if you don’t have one, this project could fund one.

http://www.mmdistributors.com/MASTER-CLAMP-III-Shad-Box-2-1-2-Wide-X-2-16-Inches-p/5107

Also, this might also be a great time for some slight/narrow head drywall finishing screws drilled into the miter at the top and bottom of the frame (where they are not seen from the side)

http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/072...uot-HeadCote-Stainless-Steel-Trim-Head-Screws

These screws use a square drive, so you will also need the appropriate bit. The head diameter is very small. Mcfeely’s is a great resource for lots of fasteners.

7.When fitting something this large and heavy, we always cover our fitting tables with sheet plastic (visqueen). Even a slight move of the frame while face down can burnish a finish and the plastic adds excellent protection (in addition to making working with a sheet of acrylic that large much easier.) Also, use a damp rag and thoroughly wipe down the masking of the acrylic before peeling. It will reduce static and make removal significantly easier.

8.Unless you rip black acrylic strips for setbacks, or are willing to settle for the finish of black gator (ugly in my opinion) – you either will have to seam two pieces of spacer (like Arlo Spacemaker) or rip gator strips and cover with fabric. If so, the setbacks (spacers) need to be at least ½” thick as wrapping something thinner is much more difficult. Also, this is no place for ATG as a method of attachment. You can use ATG to hold the spacers in place, but they should be glued in with dots of PVA glue.

9. Finally, I would use a method of fitting that provides a structural connection between the frame and platform. Kreg pocket screws are an excellent choice. If you go this route, drill all of the pockets before covering the platform and sewing the flag! http://www.kregtool.com/Pocket-Hole-Jigs-Prodlist.html

I am sure I left out a lot, but it is a good start……
 
Rob, Thank you for taking the time to share your expertise in such a detailed fashion. This sort of sharing of knowlege is what this forum is all about. I plan to save this information for the next huge job that comes our way.
 
Thanks Rob. The type of knowledge you share is the reason I joined TG.
 
Thank you so much to everyone who has replied to my post.

This post has definitely given me some food for thought and I think I have figured out how i am going to complete this project.

1.I am going to build a reinforced wood frame and adhere gatorboard to it.
2. I'm going to stretch quilt batting over it and then black fabric.
3. Then sew the flag into place.

I am going to use a canvas floating moulding that is quite heavy duty and reinforce that. This way I alleviate the need for acrylic and spacers.

There will not be direct light on the flag and the customer just wants the piece for decorative purposes.

I left a lot out but just wanted to let everyone know that they were a great help in this project...I definitely look forward to completing this!!!

I'll post some pics of it when its done...

Danielle
 
thedarkroom said:
This way I alleviate the need for acrylic and spacers........the customer just wants the piece for decorative purposes.
Click to expand...

PLEASE be sure that somewhere in your work order is a statement to the client that because the piece is framed without glazing that periodic vacuuming and inspection of the piece is necessary. Exposed black fabric will discolor from dust and the exposed fringe is also a dust/spider haven. Boy I sure would not want to see the flag in a few years if fastidious maintenence was not followed.

Also, PLEASE share your resource for black fabric that size.
 
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the heads up on the vacuuming...will do.

I did not find any fabric that large except in felt...which would prove to attract even more dust if used. I am going to sew three pieces of black fabric together (Frank from Frank's Fabrics suggestion) that way there isn't a seam in the middle. I m really handy with a sewing machine and sewing in general, which is why I am looking forward to this job...its nice getting to use other skills I have in framing.
 
Mr. Markoff et al- Few fabrics would be available that size, but any can be sewn together. Good sources of unfinished fabrics would be Testfabrics, or talk to someone at Creation Baumann.
 
The response by the OP as to the “final design decision” has been gnawing at me for a few days.

Please note that my questions in this post are not intended to be hostile in any way – and I hope to learn from the responses.

The decision was made to display this flag without any glazing. Because the glazing was a significant determiner of most everything I posted in my suggestions, many of the things I recommended are no longer a factor- including the necessity of such a rigid (and costly) platform.

So here are some questions regarding the execution of the “final design” – I hope David, Jim, Sam and Rebecca will jump in:

1. Since the frame is no longer supporting the weight of the acrylic, it would seem that the platform need not be so sturdy or rigid. Why use GATOR for the platform when Coroplast is lighter and much less expensive and would work just as well in the new design?

2. I still do not understand the use of batting. For a DCO or an interference fit, I see the advantage of some form of cushioning to provide more even pressure behind the flag, but what is the purpose in the final design? In this case, it appears that we have a rigid platform with fabric being stretched around the platform and stapled to the back like a gallery wrap. Behind the fabric is batting, so it will in effect have a “pillow” effect, meaning it will be fatter in the center and tight all around the perimeter.

To be sure I understand the technique in the platform construction – the fabric will not be glued to the platform anywhere. How will the corners be treated, like a canvas with folds on the outer perimeter? How will you keep the warp and weft square and perpendicular at the corners?

3. Will the flag be sewn through the platform, or basted to the black fabric? If it is sewn to the fabric and not through the platform, won’t the entire weight of the flag be borne by the black fabric, and in turn by the staples holding the fabric, mostly on the top of the strainer? If the flag is sewn through the platform (and batting) won’t that make for some “pulled” or depressed areas in the flag? (sorry, I don’t know the technical sewing term).

4. Regarding the fabric, will it be washed first? If so, how will it be pressed to avoid shiny areas on black fabric? Regarding the sewing, I understand what the seams will look like from the front, but how will they be treated on the back? I guess the batting will absorb the “lump” from the fabric folds on the back. Regarding the stitching of the fabric together, how many stitches per inch and what kind of stitch? How will you keep the seams from looking “pulled?”

5. There was no mention of using Attach EZ for attachment, so that means a lot of sewing. How much time is budgeted for sewing? What kind of thread and needles are being used? What is the final decision on the fringe?

6. What is the total amount of time anticipated to execute this design?

7. Finally, whose decision/recommendation was it to eliminate the use of glazing?
 
The batting (or needle-punched cotton felt) should be only 1/4 inch or so thick. It keeps any irregularities of the support from showing on the face, provides a slight cushion and 'grab' for the attached object, and makes a $5/yard fabric look like a $15/yard fabric. Because the batting is so thin, the 'pillow effect' will be so minimal it will hardly be noticed.

While this flag is going to be used up, not conserved, just FYI, if a conservator were going to use a fabric from JoAnn (no doubt against his wish), he would wash it in hot water, rinse it in cold, and put it through a hot dryer five times. In this case, it needs to be washed in warm, rinsed in cold, and put through the dryer on medium just once, to shrink it up. It should be pressed only from the back.

From your questions, I think you should get a sewing friend to come and run it through the machine, and press the seams open for you.

There should be a full-width fabric panel at the middle of the support, with as many whole and/or partial ones at the sides, as needed.

The flag will be sewn to the fabric only (picking up some of the batting along the way. High quality polyester thread (like Gutermann)
would be a good choice. Four to six stitches to the inch will probably do. Like with hinging, you want the attachment to fail, not the object to fail. Just what needle to use is up to the sewer; one a little thicker than twice the thickness off the thread will be easiest to use. A backstitch every three or four inches would be a good idea. Ask your sewing friend what that means.

All of this is very general, as I've not seen nor handled any of the materials involved.

Anything I left out?
 
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