Question Frame Size Max. Per Width of Moudling...

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davidagladish

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Aug 20, 2008
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Southern Illinois University Carbondale
Hello All,

I have a quick question about consumer notices on the backs of frame samples. Customers keep wanting to frame large pieces (20X24-ish or larger) with thin wood frames (1" or less in width) as opposed to thicker versions because they are cheaper. As we all know, this can cause problems if they also want the frame to hold glass, and because those longer middle sections love to bow and sag. Short of saying "no." I'd like to post on the backs of particular frame samples that they are "not recommened over (a particular size)." Are there any standard methods or charts for size limitations on frames of a certain thickness? Or if there are any other methods you can suggest...

David Gladish
Assistant Director SIUC Craft Shop
Carbondale, IL
(618) 453-3636
 
Dave, there is no hard fast rule. It depends on the strength of the specific wood and the surface area of the corner joint.

If you want, I see nothing wrong with warnings on individual samples such as.

"This sample of moulding, due to its strength is limited to use in frames no larger than XX x XX."

Reasonable sizes to specify might be.

11 x 14
16 x 20
22 x 28
24 x 30


A stronger statement:

"This sample of moulding, due to its strength - carries no warranty if used in frames larger than XX x XX ."
 
Add a Strainer

We have many artists and customers who want a narrow faced frame (3/4") on fairly large pieces. We add a strainer screwed to the back to reinforce the frame. A deep frame needs to be used - for this, we use frames with a minimum 1" rabbet depth. Of course, the strainer is an added cost, so it's not so cheap after all.:thumbsup:
 
It's also good to use WallBuddies for hangers. They reinforce the corners and don't bow the frame in like a wire hanger would.
 
Dave said:
It's also good to use WallBuddies for hangers. They reinforce the corners and don't bow the frame in like a wire hanger would.
Click to expand...
Yea but WallBuddies won't do a lick of good on most thin frames 3/4 to 1/2", and a strainer is really essential.

But for 3/4" or so I wouldn't consider it too larger until you where breaching 24 x 36". IMHO. That said you have to judge each frame, the framing package and customer awareness.
 
When you have a sturdy strainer inside a really thin frame, do you think it would be best to hang the frame from the frame or the strainer? I'm not talking about the stretcher bar of an oil painting, as I'd never use that to hang from. But with a skeeeeny frame and a heavy strainer, wouldn't it be better to hang from the strainer? If I stack frames for a heavier job with a really narrow one on the outside and a wide sturdy one on the inside, hanging from that inner frame seems wise, but I wonder what you guys think.
 
One slightly dubious practice is to rivet d-rings to the backboard. It does mean that solid board (MDF?) needs to be used. No foamcore.:icon11: If you also tape the edges of the glass/mat/back to form a solid sandwich you can almost hang the thing without a frame at all. This way you can put a diddly frame around which plays no part at all in the strength of the package. There still is the prob of the molding pulling away in the middle, but papering the back will help.

I should point out that this method should only be contemplated on ephemeral items. It's a reasonable solution for big posters and such of no intrinsic value.
 
Do you use 'Frame Strong"? Works great and uses the glass as added support. I would stll recommend something to strengthen for the wire/hanging system.

(Frame Strong: 914 967 7358) only source I know of is direct.
 
Keep in the back of your mind that regular glass weighs about a pound per square foot (call it 1-1/2 pounds if you want to exaggerate it to make your point).

The easiest way we’ve found to discourage thin frames is simply to say, “The glass for this 20 x 24” frame by itself will weigh about 3-1/2 pounds. Structurally, this frame will be too weak to support this weight.”

Then work your magic as a sales person and direct them to some wider, stronger frame.

JFeig said:
A stronger statement:

"This sample of moulding, due to its strength - carries no warranty if used in frames larger than XX x XX ."
Click to expand...

If you use this approach, IMO, it might turn around and bit you in the butt.

I think it would be similar to a toy manufacturer producing a small toy with lots of beads and tiny parts that could be swallowed by a toddler with a warning, “Not to be used by anyone under the age of 35 without adult supervision”. I'm sure that statement would bring smiles to countless lawyers waiting to initiate a class action suit when a few kids stuff the beads up their noses.

I don’t think that “carries no warrantee” would protect you from anything. If you can’t stand by your work, it shouldn’t leave the shop, in my opinion.
 
Thanks all

This is all great advice. We do have a wood shop in our craft shop, as well, so we can cut triangle reinforcements and extra bars to help the structure of a thinner frame. I have been kite-stringing the hangers as well to help pull the frame together when they're hung. I'd just like to avoid structurally unsound framing at the get-go, though, if possible and redirect their interest to a thicker, more expensive frame that will actually hold up well under weight. I think the warnings are a great idea, the lack-of-warranty threatening sounds good, but we don't really do warranties. We usually just fix something if it's our fault, otherwise, place another order for a repair job. For the sake of argument and because I have student workers placing many of my orders, without any reinforcing, would a good cutoff for a 1" (width) X 1/2" (rabbet) moulding made of a medium strength wood be 16X20?
 
It's easier for those of us in the business of selling frames, because we can charge for all the workarounds necessary to reinforce that skinny little frame, and make it less economical than buying a big boy frame that requires no workarounds.
 
shayla said:
When you have a sturdy strainer inside a really thin frame, do you think it would be best to hang the frame from the frame or the strainer? I'm not talking about the stretcher bar of an oil painting, as I'd never use that to hang from. But with a skeeeeny frame and a heavy strainer, wouldn't it be better to hang from the strainer? If I stack frames for a heavier job with a really narrow one on the outside and a wide sturdy one on the inside, hanging from that inner frame seems wise, but I wonder what you guys think.
Click to expand...


Strainer
 
you dont feel comfortable about the sizing--tell them you wont do it that small--based on liabilities---and that doing in that size is a danger---and that over a long enough peroid of time the frame has a good chance of saging/warping out of shape(it is asking a lot of 1/2" to carry 24X36 weight)...and in the same breath direct them to something less expensive and BIGGER you keep around for this purpose. Also hit them with 'glass = 1#?sqft' and that something THAT small absolutely begs for lighter glazing, i.e. acrylic and then figure out how much more THAT will cost...leading back to the argument of a bigger frame to surmount ALL these problems! Most customers will allow themselves to be swayed by the logic of these arguments. I've even been known to go into the back, cut a small piece of equal size, and come back and snap it in 2 so they can see just how little strength that small a piece has!
 
One thing that I have done is to put it in a thin metal frame then put the thin wood over it. I prefer the strainer method but sometimes there is not room for adding a strainer inside. I often use a cheap stem moulding that I purchased for $.08 a foot. I turn it on its side when I chop it.
 
The reality of what I actually do in my shop:

1. try to sell a frame the will actually work and or add a strainer

If that doesn't work... I simply say that I can't do what you want me to do.



My frame mouldings are not marked with any size limits.

One thing to remember..... there is a big difference in operating a shop with one or 2 experienced framers working the sales counter... vs .... operating a shop with part time help and or sales people who have no real framing experience(back room).
I have the impression that this situation(the original question) is leaning toward the latter. A warning notice of size limit is for the benefit of the sales person, and not the customer.
 
I've used small turnbuckles wired across the large spans on smallish frames. It keeps the frame from bowing out and adds strength for hanging. I may also rig with wall-buddies or a 4-point wire rig. There have been no service issues to date with these methods...though I have also declined to do certain profiles at very large sizes.
 
Actually
I wil not allow a customer to tell me how to frame.
They can tell me what they would like, but if it is going to be dangerous or not up to my quallity of workmanship I will explain it nicely and suggest a fix. If they are not happy, SORRY. When it falls apart or the glass falls out, all her friends will know who framed it.
In this case you might suggest acyrlic.
 
A simple way to prevent bowing is to use a pneumatic stapler such as a Senco. You can fire the staple at an angle through the foam core and use plenty of them. This will hold the frame against the mat, backing, glass etc.

Wall Buddies then allow for safe hanging.
 
JFeig said:
One thing to remember..... there is a big difference in operating a shop with one or 2 experienced framers working the sales counter... vs .... operating a shop with part time help and or sales people who have no real framing experience(back room).
I have the impression that this situation(the original question) is leaning toward the latter. A warning notice of size limit is for the benefit of the sales person, and not the customer.
Click to expand...

Jerome, this is a very astute comment. I agree. There's a world of difference between an experienced frame designer, and the knowledge percolating in their head as they choose designs versus a newbie who might have learned what colors go together but misses a lot of basic structural considerations.
 
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