Frame Corners

Create a Post
N

Neale

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Posts
6
Loc
Canada
Just wondering if I can get a little feedback regarding a framers responsibility to customers in relation to how well the side edges of frame corners go together. I work like a dog to get front edges perfect but whether I cut them myself or do chop service there are times when the side edge just doesn't meet neatly going towards the back of the frame. Is this just something that should be and one starts over if there is a slight gap to the rear edge. I don't do a lot of cutting of my own frames for various reasons and even with chop service those occasions do happen. Would like to know how other framers deal with this.

Neale
 
I rarely see absolutely perfect corners on the side of the frame....almost always use a little putty. The front, however, I require to be perfect.
 
Im with TessaE on this one...it took me a year in my shop to figure out that frame moulding is like an animal...it can smell your fear! Never let it see you sweat...and use a little putty on that back edge. I have never had a customer say anything as long as the front looks perfect.
 
I wish mine were perfect, but some things are just not meant to be. Hence putty.

I went over to a customer's office the other day -- he wanted me to see his limited edition Charles Fazzino 3D piece, mainly because he wants me to find a buyer for it. As if. But anyway, it's framed in a gold swan profile moulding, and 3 of the 4 corners are extremely separated, including both bottom corners. I'm not talking about swiping your credit card through the gap, either. I'm talking about swiping a deck of cards through the gap!! I don't think he even noticed, til I pointed it out to him. And just you wait -- one day, the entire frame package is just going to fall out onto the floor!
 
You'r right, it's the tongue thing. Twist it a little and poke it out to one side, bite down slowely but with even presure, enough to hold it in place but not so much as to puncture or leave indentations. It also helps to hold your breath and open the eyes a little wider...

Oh ya, and putty..............
 
Neale said:
...a framers responsibility to customers in relation to how well the side edges of frame corners go together...
Click to expand...

It's funny that's it's phrased in terms of responsibility to customers. The way I look at it, you have a responsibility to yourself to provide your customers with the best product you can (including well-joined corners), because otherwise they may not remain your customers for long.
It's not just an aesthetic issue. As Paul pointed out, if there are gaps, that means not much surface area of wood is actually being joined at the corners, and sooner or later they will probably fail structurally. You might be able to improve the situation a little by forcing glue into the gap and touching up with wood filler and acrylic, but the best solution is to take measures to be able to produce better joins. Analyze and test all elements of the process: cutting, clamping, and joining; and tweak whatever needs adjusting. Whatever you do, DO NOT fill the gaps with nail-hole putty and expect that to make do. While preparing to hang it, your customer WILL find a way to get putty on their expensive Roche Bobois suede-covered sofa, and guess who would pay for that.
:eek: Rick
 
This has been covered extensively, but it boils down to a few basic things:

1) Check that your saw or chopper is properly calibrated to give you 45-degree cuts
2) If you are using an underpinner, make any necessary adjustments to calibration to compensate for gaps
3) Get one of those sanders, to correct minor flaws in your cuts or chops

Those three things will probably solve most of your problems. If the wood is badly warped or twisted, you'll get three good corners and the fourth will be shockingly bad. No amount of sanding or calibration will help you. Get in the habit of sending bad wood back to your suppliers.

Now, with some of those complex and ornate profiles, you may get a tight corner, but the ornamentation won't match up. There's nothing you can really do about that if you are selling conventional frames. The only real solution is finished corner frames. If that kind of mismatched ornament at the corners really really bothers the customer, they can either pony up for closed corner frames, or they can choose a simpler profile. If you aren't sure whether your customers will go for closed corner frames, I paraphrase Marty Horowitz for you:

[cue incredibly hoarse voice] "Paul, if you don't offer them, you can't sell them."
 
And also where I was headed, which was why I asked (and Susan as well) how are you joining? Putty on the back side will not solve a problem, but make it worse....dark and irreversable skid marks on your customer's wall/carpet/furniture. Plus, if there's a gap, how strong is your glue join?

Gluing first in a vise? All vises are not made equal.....check 'em. Underpinner out of adjustment? Worn out? I'm getting pretty much perfect miters now, inside and outside, and rarely use putty anymore, and certainly no putty on an outside corner. Sharp chopper blades have helped me more than anything.

Chop orders gapping on the outside? Still sounds like a joining issue. I'd bet if you ordered a frame joined, it wouldn't be gappy on the outside.

So, Neal, I (we) repeat....how are you joining?
 
What I use to join is a Mitre Mite VN manual nailer. I'm definitely not talking credit card size slots just very minimal gaps at the back edge of a frame. Never had a complaint in a very long time until one lately who decided to make an issue of it.

I do wish when I bought a vnailer I had of gone pneumatic. After several years I now have carpal thumbal syndrome drying to get those corners tight!!!!

Thanks for all the feedback.

Neale
 
Neale, have you ever tried glueing in a vise first, letting it dry and then v-nailing it?

I know it's an extra step, but it has sure saved me time puttying. My MiterMite is an old one and less that perfect, but a new one's just not in the budget right now, so I vise and glue first....no gappy backs anymore.
 
Ok
We use the sander which sands from the out side edge of the moulding.
#1 I cut from the rabbit
#2 Have to sand from the outside
#3 vice and glue from the rabbit.
It ain't going to match.
We need a sander that sands from the rabbit( am working on some ideas)
No way does the out side match the rabbit.
You will never get a (almost) perfect corner working off 2 different surfaces
 
Every time you insert a fastener, it has a slight wedge effect. That action tends to opens the outside of the miter and tighten the inside of the miter.

Two factors contribute to this: 1) the pieces of moulding are not pushed together tightly into the corner fences of your machine, and 2) too many wedges.

The best corners result from correct miters, tight holding in the joining machine, and the correct number of fasteners -- not too many or too few. You want to insert only as many as are needed to dependably hold the corner together.
 
Neale, try not to drive a V-nail to close to the back edge.


You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.
Mark Twain
 
Hey Val,

Let me ask this, if you glue first and then let it dry, aren't you afraid the v-nailer will break the glue seal if it doesn't go in just right?

I've always wondered this. I have always been told that the v-nail is just there to hold the corner until the glue drys.

I do have this problem sometimes, alot more then I would like to admit, so I am all ears.

One more question for Val, do you have four vices and glue all four corners at the same time? Or do you do two at a time?

But I have to say, even with the best join, I still will sometimes touch up with putty for the smoothness it brings to the corner, especially with ornate frames.
 
J Phipps TN said:
Hey Val,
#1...Let me ask this, if you glue first and then let it dry, aren't you afraid the v-nailer will break the glue seal if it doesn't go in just right?

#2...One more question for Val, do you have four vices and glue all four corners at the same time? Or do you do two at a time?
Click to expand...

#1. Honestly, I don't remember that ever happening. The glue holds tight through the v-nails. I use Corner Weld. Great stuff.

#2. Two corners at a time to get a good fit, v-nail, then the remaining two corners, and v-nail. I have 12 vises (inherited most of them) and can really get a lot of frames going in a day, when needed, as the glue sets up very fast, usually in just a few minutes, enough to hold through the v-nailing.

Someday I'll be able to get a new underpinner and might not need the vises anymore, until then....I vise.

I still occasionally need to touch up outer corners, some mouldings just want to chip back there, no matter how sharp your blades are, and when I do, it's usually acrylic paint rather than putty. I've seen instances where dark putty on a back corner (which doesn't every dry up) can rub off on a wall when the customer hangs it up.
 
I've had enormous problems with a few mouldings trying to get a perfect mitre. The other day I was joining a bare ash frame and, after an initial failure, decided to experiment.

In my case, I think the problem was putting wedges in too close to the outside edge of the moulding. The grain of the wood was twisting the v-nail so that it forced the back edge of the mitre to separate.

Taking the failed mitre apart showed me that the v-nail had twisted rather than going in straight and even using the underpinner's clamp was insufficient to keep the joint tight.

I adjusted the underpinner settings and joined the ash frame with no problem.

Too early to say whether or not that will solve the problem with the other mouldings but I'm hopeful.

BTW, I'm using a Cassese C-88.
 
I use a pneumatic programmable VN4. Common things that help:

Clamp placement to come down on the frame at a point above where your first nail enters, so you don't create a pivot point or rocking motion.

Sometimes pinning the corner with one nail to stabilize the join first and then 'filling in' around it works.

Practice clamping the two frame legs before shooting...if they rock or pivot, put that clamp somewhere else.

V nails for soft or med/hard wood give very different results. The effect of simply changing v-nail type is amazing. This is critical when stacking nails.

If pneumatic, adjust pressure for both the clamp and the thrust of the v-nail. Not applicable if manual of course.

For reverse scoops (narrower at the outside, like Studio 257-145) the clamp placed at the outside most spot and shooting that position first and adding another point closer in works well...opposite of what typically works. Gives a tight corner.
 
For real, I have found that when I am chopping a frame that if it is not held tightly in place and there is a wobble on the last cut then the corners gap. That is why moulding that is warped creates gaps when its cut. I re-cut if its gaping in the back.
 
As a general rule, if there is any movement of the miters during cutting or joining, then there will be a problem with the resulting corner. There is no effective way to compensate for poor miters.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top