Double V-Nailing

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Shayla

Shayla

WOW Framer
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Somebody's working on getting better corner results and has tried doubling the v-nails toward this end. Meaning, shoot one in, then another. Not on shadowbox mouldings, but things that are 1 - 1 1/2" deep. They look better, but it sure seems like it would be easy to forget and triple shoot it; or forget and double shoot it on one that only needed one deep. Do any of you shoot v-nails two deep, and if so, when?
 
Do you mean stacking?
 
Yes.

(Unless you're in Quebec, in which case, 'oui'.)
 
shayla said:
Somebody's working on getting better corner results and has tried doubling the v-nails toward this end. Meaning, shoot one in, then another. Not on shadowbox mouldings, but things that are 1 - 1 1/2" deep. They look better, but it sure seems like it would be easy to forget and triple shoot it; or forget and double shoot it on one that only needed one deep. Do any of you shoot v-nails two deep, and if so, when?
Click to expand...

If there's a good 1/4 inch above the stacked nail, I'll stack.
 
10's and 12's stack well. Sometimes stacked nails will " curve " towards the back of the moulding so I don't usually stack at the back end. You can use tape and mark nailer positions.
 
We do also have a Hoffman, but it's so much slower, he's trying to use the Cassese on short stuff.
 
Shayla. I'm amazed that this is a new concept to you. Someone of your vast framing experience. :D

My ancient underpinner takes max 10mm v-nails.
I use mostly 10s and 7s. Two 7s makes a 14 and two 10s make - well you can work that out for yourself.

My general rule is to shoot the v-nails to a depth past the rabbet depth. If you have two positions where one
needs say two 10s and the other one. You do have to concentrate to save yourself banging one out off the front.

I never do that of course. :oops:

Occasionally you do get a misfire where the second v-nail goes around the side of the first and doesn't push it further.
Or it may slip around and overlap partially. On my manual pinner I can tell though my leg when it does this. It's not usually
a problem though. Sometimes you can put a third v-nail in which connects with one or other of the first two and pushes it in.

You can triple-stack. On my machine it works maybe 50/50 of the time. So I don't do it mostly.o_O
 
I stack v nails all the time. I usually will not stack 15mm at the outside position because if you hit a little grain it will sometimes cause the v nail to curl out the back side. Remember to turn up your pressure and you generally will not have a problem. One word of caution, be careful with the mouldings that have a lot of gesso. Make sure there is plenty of space between the nail and the gesso. If you get to close to the gesso with the nail it could the wood grain to shift a little bid making the gesso bulge, split, or beak off.
 
It's not a new concept; it's just one the use of which I've been gunshy. To. (That might go in there somewhere.)

In pre-Hoffman days, we only tried it with really skinny deep mouldings made from maple, etc..., and shooting two usually resulted in a blown-out side. It's been so long since we did it that I'm used to thinking of stacking as what you do with two frames. Plus, I was tired.

I'm still tired. But my better half is tireder. (More tired?) And he seems to be happier now that he's stacking.

But one of these days, all heck is gonna break loose, and then where will you all be?

Oh, that's right.

Never mind.
 
On those taller, thinner profiles, I never stack the outer. Just the inner. So far, so good.
 
Yes, you do have to keep your wits about you when stacking, to avoid poke-thru. On a cap shape, I usually do one at the outside position and stack 2 at the inside position.
I made myself a handy stacking guide out of a little chunk of matboard. One end is the height of 2 stacked 7mm vnails, with a line at the halfway point, and the other end is the same but for 10mm vnails.
I just hold this up to the mitered end to judge whether to stack or not, and where in the profile. "No problem, lovely budgie."
:cool: Rick
 
tedh said:
On those taller, thinner profiles, I never stack the outer. Just the inner. So far, so good.
Click to expand...

Ditto.

I also stack on mouldings like the one below where is a big difference in height between the back and front.

p266.jpg


I'll put a single nail at the back and stack right under the highest point.
 
My cassese 3099 allows you to program how many pins you put in each position for a given frame, then it does it for you. If you dont stack big deep frames you will have a weak joint. The only time i don't stack is if I am using hardwood wedges as the double edge usually means the second nail wont push the first and quite often splits it.
 
Alot of moldings can only be joined properly by stacking V-nails.

Remember when it comes to joining it is not about the number of V-nails you use but about how close to the top without penetrating the molding.

Meaning if you join a frame with 6 7mm v-nails front to back and i join a frame with 2 12mm front to back, my join will hold ALOT better.

Sometimes i tripple stack v-nails depending on the profile, like i said i use the least amount front to back and the most amount top to bottom.
 
Nicely put Ali. You need the height especially with a big frame with wide heavy moulding. The weight of the frame can make it unstable whilst pinning breaking corners. Even when a frame is made and the glue cured a heavy mirror in a big frame can break the joints open if you dont stack. Quite often with really big frames wide mouldings I use a buscuit jointer and v nails. A hoffman would be the answer though in that situation probably.
 
ali said:
Remember when it comes to joining it is not about the number of V-nails you use but about how close to the top without penetrating the molding.
Click to expand...

Ditto. My default VNail is the 15mm. I choose the VNail that will get me closest to the top also. A rough estimate of my use is 15mm - 75%, 12mm - 12%, 10mm - 12% and 7mm - 4%. I only VNails less than 15mm when a 15mm is too tall.
 
tedh said:
On those taller, thinner profiles, I never stack the outer. Just the inner. So far, so good.
Click to expand...

I guess "taller, thinner" is relative. I can't imagine trying to shoot nails in two positions on what we call "taller, thinner" profiles.

1-1/2" - 2-3/4" tall
1/2" to 3/4" face

We had trouble enough using just one location, NOT stacked - just a single 15mm (and then brad nailing the top), that we finally saw the light and bought a Hoffmann. And then another. I'm sure the fact that all of our profiles are hardwood, and mostly Maple, didn't help.

Possibly related side note. I'm currently 6'2" and (well, I was, a long time ago - I've gained a "good" 20-25# since getting married to an amateur chef ["amateur" because she doesn't earn a salary] 30 years ago ) 185#. So to me, "tall and thin" means 6'4"+ and 175#-. However, to someone 5'6" and 240#, I guess even I am/was Tall and Thin...
 
I dunno where I read it, but, I think it said something like 2/3 to 3/4 of the height of the mldg is optimal. And no closer to the outside than 3/8ths" . That's not always possible of course. Hard woods, even with the pressure up high may not insert completely and then you'll either have to hammer in the rest of the way, pull it out, or grind it off. Shorter nails stack better---less bending. 3 10mm is probably better than 2 15mm. IMO
Thumbs up on the comment about marking nail positions on a piece of tape, I do that too!
One caveat though: I don't think a join needs to become "more metal than man"-type of thing. lol
 
We stack V-nails all the time.

I don't agree with always nailing past the rabbet depth. We try to leave at least 1/4" from the top of the moulding, that may be less than the height of the rabbet depth.

Hard wood mouldings tend to force the V-nails out the sides, so in that case, we sometimes will only stack near the inside and not an outer position. If it's a soft wood, then it's far more forgiving and we may stack further out.

(We have the top end Cassese model—but it's the top end Cassese from the mid-1980s. :) We've replaced some seals on it, but it works well.)

Andrew
 
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