Cleaning under glass

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bobtnailer

bobtnailer

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Posts
215
Loc
Sulphur Springs, TX
Howdy y'all!

I'm brand-spankin' new to the framing industry, and just registered with your forum. What a fantastic resource!!

Being such a newbie/rookie, I have tons of questions...even about the most basic of processes and products.

My first question is this: How do you keep the underside of glass clean when assembling a frame?

It seems that no matter how much I scrub my glass, and make sure that my mat and artwork are clear of dust, I still get little flakes of glass (from cutting it) and dust particles trapped under the glass.

Is there a trick to doing it right the first time?


Thanks in advance!!

Cody
 
Hi Cody, welcome. You might be pressing too hard with your glass cutter if you are getting flakes of glass. As for the dust, it's just a tedious process. I don't have any specific suggestions. I know some people like to use compressed air, but I've seen a few things get damaged that way. I think practice and realistic expectations are a good combo.

Ed
 
Fresh glass blades, especially on conservation glass. Use compressed air but onto other hand first and redirect air onto frame package.
 
Thank you both!

On the subject of compressed air, what are your feelings about "canned" air (for cleaning keyboards, etc.)? Would the propellant have a tendency to damage artwork? I have an air compressor in another part of my shop (several rooms away from my framing area), and I could run a line from it to my frame assembly table if it came to that.

Thank you again for your help, AND for the warm welcome!
 
Welcome, Bob. Enjoy your travels here.

I would run a line. Canned air tends to have moisture in it and can also freeze up but probably not in the short blasts used for blowing dust away.

Also static electricity is part of the problem in drier climates or season. Humidify the air if possible and also clean clean clean. I often will mist water around the floor and lightly on my fit up bench if dust seems to really be a problem or working with static materials like acrylic glazing.

There are more expensive solutions like static brushes and static guns, but probably not necessary for you at this point.
 
Any glass flakes would be from improper cutting. Tell us how you cut your glass and we will guide you through the process.

Welcome to the Grumble.
 
When I first started out I used to visit a friendly local framer and watch him at work. Assembling a frame, he would cut the glass, put it in the frame and clean it. Then load the matted art/backing in face-down and drive in the points. I did the same for a year or too. Sounds the logical way to do it. Of course you have the problem of not being able to see the front and have to constantly keep flipping ithe frame over to check for bits ('flumbs' as they are known in Grumble parlance....). Anyway after a while a sales rep who had done framing in the past told me of a different way which seems a no-brainer now. Place the backing on the bench, matted art on top. Clean glass and place the glass on top. You can see any stray particles and winkle them out easily, but usually you don't get any. I usually tape around the whole inner package to form a solid 'sandwich', trimming the tape back so it doesn't protrude part the rabbet lip. This part is not essential but it keeps everything together and once done you know nothing will get in. The usual way flumbs get in is handling the glass/art/back when it is loose. Any separation causes an inrush of air which will scoop up any nearby flumbs and draw them in.

Working this way is very convenient to me because of the way my workshop is set out, but I would never dream of doing it another way. I cut the mats in one room - glaze and back them - tape all round and then take the assembled units downstairs to where I make the frames. The matcutting room is very clean. The framemaking room is very dusty. But no worries taking the glazed art in the framemaking room. Nothing can get in once sealed. I then just make the frame and do the final assembly.
 
.... btw. You shouldn't get flakes of glass - ever. If you are either using too much pressure on the score or need a new wheel in the cutter. Lots of folks swear by using self-lubricating cutters. I have always used a 'dry' one. But dipping the end in mineral spirits (turps substitute) can help achieve a cleaner cut.
 
..... btw 2. Another thing about taped the sandwich is that it makes a good bug trap. If you live in a rural area (like me) and are surrounded by cornfields you can get swarms of little flies at harvest times. Some years you don't see any but some years they appear in Biblical proportions. For some reason unknown to me they love getting in pictures where not only do they look bad they can cause damage to artwork. They always go in the frames by the front: wiggling under the rabbet and round the edge of the glass. With an internally taped package they have the choice of going over the tape where they can safely expire somewhere out of sight and not near the art or try to get under the tape and get stuck. :p
 
prospero said:
..... btw 2. Another thing about taped the sandwich is that it makes a good bug trap. If you live in a rural area (like me) and are surrounded by cornfields you can get swarms of little flies at harvest times. Some years you don't see any but some years they appear in Biblical proportions. For some reason unknown to me they love getting in pictures where not only do they look bad they can cause damage to artwork. They always go in the frames by the front: wiggling under the rabbet and round the edge of the glass. With an internally taped package they have the choice of going over the tape where they can safely expire somewhere out of sight and not near the art or try to get under the tape and get stuck. :p
Click to expand...

You need to discover the wonders of DDT.
ddt2.jpeg
 
Steve Collins said:
You need to discover the wonders of DDT.
ddt2.jpeg
Click to expand...
When I grew up in Chicago in the late 50's and into the 60's they would send trucks up and down the streets to spray DDT for mosquitoes.
This is an excerpt from an article about this.... (it's kind of like when people smoked cigarettes with asbestos filterso_O)...
Screen Shot 2015-04-24 at 7.06.29 PM.png

Good times! (sorry for the slight frankenthread)
 
I used to have a darkroom (before there was digital everything ) and was always very reluctant to used canned (or compressed air). Sometimes the propellant would drip on negatives, freeze and ruin them.

At the shop, I use a soft, camel hair, draftsman's brush to dust off glass before I assemble the backing-art-mat-glass sandwich. I don't use this brush for anything other than this!

As Peter verbosely said (:D)instead of dusting the glass, dropping it in the assembled frame, then adding the mat and backing, if you assemble the backing-art-mat-glass package THEN drop this whole package as a unit into the frame, you will seldom get goobers or flumbs stuck between the glass and mat.

BTW: unlike the rambling Brit, I seldom tape this package. Once the package is assembled, and fit into the frame, the pressure of the framers/glazing points should keep crud from sipping in between the mat and glass.
 
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What they all said.

I would suggest to take at least a basic framing class at one of the professional framing schools. It will help you do things the right way from the start. You don't want to find out the hard way that you have done things improperly by ruining an expensive piece of art.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
Any glass flakes would be from improper cutting. Tell us how you cut your glass and we will guide you through the process.

Welcome to the Grumble.
Click to expand...

This is what I use to cut glass and backer board (not sure if that's the right nomenclature...talking about the foam board behind the artwork). I use a laser engraver (from the other part of my business) to cut mats, as well as to mark them for bevels.

Since I use only a little pressure and get a LOT of flumbs (my new favorite word!), the first thing I'll do is replace the cutter.
 

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Ylva said:
What they all said.

I would suggest to take at least a basic framing class at one of the professional framing schools. It will help you do things the right way from the start. You don't want to find out the hard way that you have done things improperly by ruining an expensive piece of art.
Click to expand...

Sage advice...will do ASAP.

We have owned/operated an awards business for the last 11 years, and only recently (two months ago) purchased a framing company from an older couple who wanted to retire and do nothing. I attend several educational events (and teach them) throughout the year for the awards side of the business, and absolutely HAVE to start doing the same for the framing side. My knowledge/understanding of framing is only enough to be dangerous at this point. I've read a few threads on this forum, and most have gone waaaaay over my head. It's time to fix that and become a professional framer!!

My wife and I made a brief stop at the WCAF show in Vegas this year to meet a couple of suppliers. It was being held at the same time as our awards show (different hotels, of course), so we didn't have a lot of time to spend there. As soon as I can find something within a reasonable distance of Dallas, it'll be my mission to be there.

Thank you again for taking time to help a rookie!! :))
 
If you are getting any glass flakes you are using too much pressure. Take some scrap and cut it using less and less pressure until you reach the point where you get clean breaks.
 
Don't look too much at all the complicated threads! It can be quite overwhelming but will make more sense when you take some classes. You might start at checking out your local PPFA chapter as well and look at some smaller events.
There are some really good basic books about framing, which I devoured when I just started out.
The whole series by Vivian Kistler is a great start (I also got the whole dvd set). They are harder to find these days, but still out there. The PPFA also has an online bookstore where you might find some good titles, just as a start.

As for the glass: yes, you might put too much pressure on it. You might not know how to do a proper fitting so you will find flumbs. As for your cutter, is that one with the counter weight??? I inherited one from previous shop and I couldn't get clean cuts on it. I quickly replaced it with a Fletcher wall cutter. Never regretted that.
 
bobtnailer said:
This is what I use to cut glass and backer board (not sure if that's the right nomenclature...talking about the foam board behind the artwork). I use a laser engraver (from the other part of my business) to cut mats, as well as to mark them for bevels.

Since I use only a little pressure and get a LOT of flumbs (my new favorite word!), the first thing I'll do is replace the cutter.
Click to expand...
That is the wall cutter with the rope, pulley and counter weight.
It uses a hand held glass cutter clamped into the head and is really outdated.
I worked at a shop about 10 years ago that had that cutter and it was completely worn out, a piece of junk, and replacement parts are not available for it.
I found a used Fletcher 3000 for $450 and it worked perfectly.
When we replaced the old rope and pulley cutter, we just threw it in the dumpster.;)

Also, glass cutters can come with different angle wheels for cutting different kinds of glass, various thickness etc.
If you have the wrong angle cutting wheel or hand held glass cutter you will get lots of chips.

I recommend a Fletcher 3000 or 3100 wall cutter and there are some available used and in very good condition.
Not much really wears out on the Fletchers except possibly the nylon bushings and a kit with new bushings and a few other replaceable parts to rebuild is available from Fletcher for very little money.
 
Are you talking about this series (see attached pic)? I have only begun reading...there is SOOOOO much to take in!! Another framer loaned these to me.

I just emailed the guy who is over the PPFA chapter in our area. Thank you for the advice!

Yes, this is the cutter with the counterweight. As soon as we pay off the purchase of the other company, we'll start looking at newer equipment. One of the first will probably be an underpinner (we nail the corners right now). It does a decent job of cutting mat and foam board, but it's less than precise - especially on glass. I'll look into the Fletcher.

Thank you so much for the help!! :))
 

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neilframer said:
That is the wall cutter with the rope, pulley and counter weight.
It uses a hand held glass cutter clamped into the head and is really outdated.
I worked at a shop about 10 years ago that had that cutter and it was completely worn out, a piece of junk, and replacement parts are not available for it.
I found a used Fletcher 3000 for $450 and it worked perfectly.
When we replaced the old rope and pulley cutter, we just threw it in the dumpster.;)

Also, glass cutters can come with different angle wheels for cutting different kinds of glass, various thickness etc.
If you have the wrong angle cutting wheel or hand held glass cutter you will get lots of chips.

I recommend a Fletcher 3000 or 3100 wall cutter and there are some available used and in very good condition.
Not much really wears out on the Fletchers except possibly the nylon bushings and a kit with new bushings and a few other replaceable parts to rebuild is available from Fletcher for very little money.
Click to expand...

$450 is pretty cheap for such an important piece of equipment!! Does that one cut mat and foam board, too?

Most of our equipment is 40+ years old. The previous owners bought out another shop 38 years ago, and this stuff came with that purchase.

In fact, we filled our dumpster TWICE with junky mat, badly bowed/twisted/marred moulding, etc. from the other shop. A lot of that stuff looked like it was at least 40 years old, and it was stuff that I would never consider selling.

We are good about keeping very current equipment for the awards side of the business, and it'll just take a little time for the framing side to catch up.
 
Yes, the Fletcher that Neil spoke of cuts mats, foam, glass and acrylic and is my favorite of the multi-material cutters. I have two of them and prefer them to my C&H. I used the same kind of cutter you have when I worked at an old shop years ago. You will like the Fletcher a lot better when you get a chance to upgrade.

A lot of Grumblers swear by hand cutting glass without any equipment at all. You could always try that and see how it works for you.

BTW my assembly process is also like Prospero and Bill Henry, but I've been doing it so long that I didn't even think that you might be doing it differently. So, if that's not the way you're doing it, change to what they said. It will help a lot.

Ed
 
bobtnailer said:
$450 is pretty cheap for such an important piece of equipment!! Does that one cut mat and foam board, too?
Click to expand...
It cuts glass, mats, Fome Core, and plexi glass.
I got lucky getting that 3000 for $450 locally for the shop with no shipping.
I also own a mint Fletcher 3000 that I have at home.
I bought it from a local shop that closed a few years ago for about $600.

I hand cut glass for over 35 years even when we had a Fletcher wall cutter.
I would just lay the glass on the back of the frame and cut free hand.
I now use the Fletcher and for the other things it can do, it's really worth having.
You can get one with production stops but you don't necessarily need them.

A few years ago the economy was very bad and there were a lot of shops closing and selling equipment very cheaply.
Things are much better now so the used prices are a little higher, but you should be able to find a used Fletcher for under $1000.
If you can find one locally or within pick-up distance then you will not have to pay shipping.
If you get the Fletcher, go for the 60" not the 48".

You can check out www.skylinepictures.com for used equipment and talk to Steve.
 
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Bill Henry- said:
I used to have a darkroom (before there was digital everything ) and was always very reluctant to used canned (or compressed air). Sometimes the propellant would drip on negatives, freeze and ruin them.

At the shop, I use a soft, camel hair, draftsman's brush to dust off glass before I assemble the backing-art-mat-glass sandwich. I don't use this brush for anything other than this!

As Peter verbosely said :)D)instead of dusting the glass, dropping it in the assembled frame, then adding the mat and backing, if you assemble the backing-art-mat-glass package THEN drop this whole package as a unit into the frame, you will seldom get goobers or flumbs stuck between the glass and mat.

BTW: unlike the rambling Brit, I seldom tape this package. Once the package is assembled, and fit into the frame, the pressure of the framers/glazing points should keep crud from sipping in between the mat and glass.
Click to expand...



That all fine and large on smaller area things. But once you have the glass nicely placed on the mat you can either drop the frame over and flip the whole issue or flip the sandwich and put in in the frame face down. The risk in doing this is that the layers will gape and suck in air. You haven't got enough hands to hold the sandwich tight together and once you have it face down you can't tell if anything has flown in.

I agree with not using compressed air. For one thing you don't know what's going to come out in the airstream and blowing dust all over the place where you are doing clean assembly seems like asking for grief. I don't even make sudden movements when glazing pics. :cool:

Pardon my verbosity and rambulations. :(
 
I'm on a Nook right now so can't copy and paste links, but if you go to the FrameTek web site and look for the link called Avoiding the Dust Pump for a good explanation of how to deal with the issue in your original post. The site also has loads of otheer veryuseful info.

BTW, your wall cutter with thepulley and counterweight sounds like the keeton unit I started out with in 1977. It was nice for its day but is hopelessly dated now.

I'm guessing that unless the brass sliding block has been cleaned and lubed daily all these years, it probably now fits the vertical bar about as well as a garment that I (5'5") would purchase in the Big & Tall department.
;-) Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
I'm on a Nook right now so can't copy and paste links, but if you go to the FrameTek web site and look for the link called Avoiding the Dust Pump for a good explanation of how to deal with the issue in your original post. The site also has loads of otheer veryuseful info.

BTW, your wall cutter with thepulley and counterweight sounds like the keeton unit I started out with in 1977. It was nice for its day but is hopelessly dated now.

I'm guessing that unless the brass sliding block has been cleaned and lubed daily all these years, it probably now fits the vertical bar about as well as a garment that I (5'5") would purchase in the Big & Tall department.
;-) Rick
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say it's been maintained "daily", but it's in decent shape for its age. I lube it weekly (generally needs it by Friday).

Thank you for the tip...I'll check them out when I get to the shop tomorrow! :))
 
My suggestion would be to buy the wall cutter first, underpinner second. Not sure how high your volume is of course, but there is nothing wrong with vise and nailing. Yes, go with the 60" wall cutter.
 
My volume is next to nothing right now...averaging about one frame per day. (Recall that my primary business is awards and engraving.) Before we start doing any heavy marketing, I have make sure I can do a quality job. I'm just not there yet. The "least good" part of my work is around the corners, in getting them flush and neat. My thought was that an underpinner (one that holds the corners down and evens up the ends - Cassese or Universal) would go a long way toward improving that part.

I did order some new glass cutters this morning (green handle unit from Fletcher), so that should cut way down on the flumbs in the meantime. :)
 
If that's the case and you have a good table, you might want to consider hand-cutting your glass until you get a good quality wall-mounted one. I cut all my glass by hand (unless a customer asks for a size that comes right out of the box) and I rarely get glass chips. Even so, I have a dedicated brush for the glass table (brush before, during, and after cutting) then I bring the glass to the fitting table where I clean both sides and place it on top of the mat board/artwork/board combination. I look for and usually don't find crud under the glass. I then fit the frame over the package and flip it over, drive a couple of points in and flip it back over to see if anything shook loose/if I missed anything. Sometimes I did, and I then bend one of the tabs and slide a piece of narrow paper under the glass to fish out the speck. Bend the tab back into place and drive in the rest of the points. Because I'm paranoid, I then flip it over and look again for specks. At this point I curse the framing gods if I find any, and repeat the bending/fishing sequence. Seal the whole thing up and put on a wire.
 
There is nothing wrong with your wall cutter, you just need practice. I can't tell you how many pieces of used equipment I have purchased that people were convinced something was so wrong it needed to be replaced. Ease the tension on the cutter and after you find the sweet spot you will get many more years of service out of it.
 
prospero said:
When I first started out I used to visit a friendly local framer and watch him at work. Assembling a frame, he would cut the glass, put it in the frame and clean it. Then load the matted art/backing in face-down and drive in the points. I did the same for a year or too. Sounds the logical way to do it. Of course you have the problem of not being able to see the front and have to constantly keep flipping ithe frame over to check for bits ('flumbs' as they are known in Grumble parlance....). Anyway after a while a sales rep who had done framing in the past told me of a different way which seems a no-brainer now. Place the backing on the bench, matted art on top. Clean glass and place the glass on top. You can see any stray particles and winkle them out easily, but usually you don't get any. I usually tape around the whole inner package to form a solid 'sandwich', trimming the tape back so it doesn't protrude part the rabbet lip. This part is not essential but it keeps everything together and once done you know nothing will get in. The usual way flumbs get in is handling the glass/art/back when it is loose. Any separation causes an inrush of air which will scoop up any nearby flumbs and draw them in.

Working this way is very convenient to me because of the way my workshop is set out, but I would never dream of doing it another way. I cut the mats in one room - glaze and back them - tape all round and then take the assembled units downstairs to where I make the frames. The matcutting room is very clean. The framemaking room is very dusty. But no worries taking the glazed art in the framemaking room. Nothing can get in once sealed. I then just make the frame and do the final assembly.
Click to expand...

Do you use metallized tape for the sandwich to help with sealing out pollutants later?
 
I use a small vacuum cleaner to get the trash off the mat and glass. I lay the art package down on the table, vacuum it, cut the glass, vacuum it, lay the glass down on the art package. Recheck to make sure it's completely clean. If not I raise the corner of the glass and use a speck grabber. Lay the frame over the package and flip over and use the staple gun in all four corners. Reflip to the front and check again. Repeat if necessary. When all is good finish off with remaining staples and back.
 
This is pretty low-tech but I find it helpful: If you have the backing, mat and glass assembled (and brushed off so the large specks are already gone) sometimes if you try to lift up the glass to get a hair or something small it creates a little vacuum and sucks more dust in, so if you take a piece (maybe 10" or so depending on how wide your mat is) of masking tape (I find that it's sticky, but not TOO sticky) and fold it over so that maybe an 1/8" of the sticky is still showing, you can slide that in between the glass and mat to get dust specks without having to lift the glass. Sometimes I press my fingers on the sticky part before I slide it under the glass so that it's sticky enough to lift dust but not so sticky that there's a chance it leaves a mark on the glass.
 

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I do something similar, but I use a length of acrylic spacer strip with just 1/8" or so of the facing paper removed at one end. I touch the exposed adhesive a few times with my finger to weaken it just to Post-It strength (as you said, you don't want it too sticky). I tape my package not continuously, but with tabs of 810 tape, so it is accessible to clean specks but easy to retape- all done with the package face-up.
:cool: Rick
 
jferrari said:
I prominently display my finger prints on the glass and tell my customers that it's just my way of "signing my work." Waaaay easier than trying to clean glass! :D
Click to expand...
I once had a customer complain that there was a hair in his frame. I told him "I didn't charge you any extra for it." He did not think it was as funny as I did.

Ed
 
FramerCat said:
I once had a customer complain that there was a hair in his frame. I told him "I didn't charge you any extra for it." He did not think it was as funny as I did.

Ed
Click to expand...
"Only one?" I'd say as I pointed at the three cats!
 
Quite a response to this thread! It may have been mentioned, but the method of cleaning the glass and inside up on the table, placing the mounted artwork g rtically beside it, then after man ng extra sure everything is dust free, lifting the glass up to it and pinching tight before placing down upright works best.
 
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