Best method to reinforce corners of float mounted painting?

[optimystery]

I am a painter offering float mounting as an option when selling my paintings, and have 2 sold and ready to be mounted.

The moulding I am going to use looks like this:

I'm planning to pre-drill and screw directly into the painting's stretcher bars (carefully and possibly with a stop), which are museum wrap (20mm profile)

As someone new to framing this seems like a good way to learn and improve my framing skills!
I have a manual mitre saw, manual disc sander (both decently accurate when used together), a Stanley 400 mitre vice and a FrameCo BenchMaster, which I haven't used yet, but seems like it would work well enough for adding v nails at the corners, in combination with the vice. Any recommendation on size of v-nails for this?

Is this how you would usually approach float mounting a museum wrap painting?
Or would L plates be appropriate for the corners?
Standard d-rings for hanging?
How many screws.. 4, 8 or 12? (1 in each corner, 2 in each corner, adding another screw halfway along the sides)

I am assuming:
One of the paintings is slightly warped, but holding down the corners to the moulding should fix that
Since the frame will be drilled and screwed to the stretcher bars, I guess the whole thing will be quite dimensionally strong, so once glued the corners should hold anyway

 

[wpfay]

One variable missing, the size of the paintings.

 

[alacrity8]

I am a painter offering float mounting as an option when selling my paintings, and have 2 sold and ready to be mounted.

The moulding I am going to use looks like this:

View attachment 46660
I'm planning to pre-drill and screw directly into the painting's stretcher bars (carefully and possibly with a stop), which are museum wrap (20mm profile)

As someone new to framing this seems like a good way to learn and improve my framing skills!
I have a manual mitre saw, manual disc sander (both decently accurate when used together), a Stanley 400 mitre vice and a FrameCo BenchMaster, which I haven't used yet, but seems like it would work well enough for adding v nails at the corners, in combination with the vice. Any recommendation on size of v-nails for this?

Is this how you would usually approach float mounting a museum wrap painting?
Or would L plates be appropriate for the corners?
Standard d-rings for hanging?
How many screws.. 4, 8 or 12? (1 in each corner, 2 in each corner, adding another screw halfway along the sides)

I am assuming:
One of the paintings is slightly warped, but holding down the corners to the moulding should fix that
Since the frame will be drilled and screwed to the stretcher bars, I guess the whole thing will be quite dimensionally strong, so once glued the corners should hold anyway

In the past I would V-Nail the corners on a Float Frame with a Pneumatic V-nailer.
This allows me to stack two 10mm V-nails.
Occasionally the V-nails would take a wrong turn, and go out the side of the thin Float Frame.
I have now switched to a Hoffman Thumbnail machine.

It is often a good idea, on tall frames like Float Frames, to install nails from the side of the moulding.
That means glue the corner, then drill two holes (smallest drill bit, or a nail with the head removed) in the corner, probably about 8 mm back from the front, and 8 mm up from the back.
Install the thinnest nails that fit snugly into the holes.
Inset the nails, and fill the hole with corner putty.

If done well, the nail holes shouldn't be noticeable.
This is the method used before V-nails for all frames, and still used by many for tall frames.

 

[alacrity8]

In general we make our Float Frames 7 mm larger all around.
Place the canvas into the frame, and then put filler material (scrap foam, cardboard, matboard) all around to hold it in place.
Flip the package over, and install the screws from behind.
Remove filler material.

Best of luck,
Brian

 

[optimystery]

One variable missing, the size of the paintings.

71x91cm x2

 

[optimystery]

In general we make our Float Frames 7 mm larger all around.
Place the canvas into the frame, and then put filler material (scrap foam, cardboard, matboard) all around to hold it in place.
Flip the package over, and install the screws from behind.
Remove filler material.

Best of luck,
Brian

Thanks, how do you handle the corners? Glue only?

 

[optimystery]

In the past I would V-Nail the corners on a Float Frame with a Pneumatic V-nailer.
This allows me to stack two 10mm V-nails.
Occasionally the V-nails would take a wrong turn, and go out the side of the thin Float Frame.
I have now switched to a Hoffman Thumbnail machine.

It is often a good idea, on tall frames like Float Frames, to install nails from the side of the moulding.
That means glue the corner, then drill two holes (smallest drill bit, or a nail with the head removed) in the corner, probably about 8 mm back from the front, and 8 mm up from the back.
Install the thinnest nails that fit snugly into the holes.
Inset the nails, and fill the hole with corner putty.

If done well, the nail holes shouldn't be noticeable.
This is the method used before V-nails for all frames, and still used by many for tall frames.

Good suggestion, but there's no way I'm going to attempt this as a beginner!

 

[wpfay]

On that size I would probably use 3 screws on the short leg and 4 on the long to attach the frame to the stretcher. Evenly spaced, not too near the corners.
There is often a build up of folded canvas in the corners. We generally add paper shims between the stretcher and the frame so the pressure is equal the entire length of each rail.

We were all beginners at one point and cross-nailing the corners of a frame isn't the most difficult part of the learning curve. You will have scraps left over from cutting your own frames and can practice on those.
The mechanical fasteners, v-nails, nails (wire brads) , or Hoffmann butterfly keys, serve to hold the joint together until the glue dries, and as a failsafe mechanism should the glue fail (and it usually does at some point).

 

[optimystery]

On that size I would probably use 3 screws on the short leg and 4 on the long to attach the frame to the stretcher. Evenly spaced, not too near the corners.
There is often a build up of folded canvas in the corners. We generally add paper shims between the stretcher and the frame so the pressure is equal the entire length of each rail.

We were all beginners at one point and cross-nailing the corners of a frame isn't the most difficult part of the learning curve. You will have scraps left over from cutting your own frames and can practice on those.
The mechanical fasteners, v-nails, nails (wire brads) , or Hoffmann butterfly keys, serve to hold the joint together until the glue dries, and as a failsafe mechanism should the glue fail (and it usually does at some point).

Good tip about adding shims along the length to match corner height!
And I would have been screwing the corners, so that's useful to know about where to place screws.
V-nails with a benchmaster (hand lever) is what I have, so I will try that while the glue sets.
Would the regular 7mm v-nails be enough?

 

[wpfay]

With 12mm thickness, I would suggest 10mm v-nails.
I've had very little luck with the 7mm ones. Mostly I use 10-12mm, and the occasional 15mm, but that is more likely to be a Hoffmann key these days.
Notice that the v-nails are sharpened only on the inside of the V. That causes them to pull outward when driven in the frame stock. It exerts inward pressure on the joint helping the make a good glue bond. It can also follow the wood grain and veer enough to emerge on the outside of the joint. That is more likely to happen with hardwoods than with softwoods. A 12mm wide float frame would be an easy victim of this kind of damage.

 

[Ylva]

I am not sure that if you are framing a warped piece, that the floater frame will be enough to correct that. Maybe for a little bit, until it moves with the canvas and also becomes warped. I would expect some of the corners to pop at some point.
Maybe better to re-stretch it.

I don't build floater frames anymore and order them joined. Just because they are a pain to cut and join (I also hate floater frames and wish that look would quietly go away, but that is just my personal dislike)

 

[tedh]

I do a lot of floaters. 15mm v-nails, and I rip pine strips to ensure the canvas is flush with the top of the floater. These also solve the problem of excess canvas in the corners. I use offsets, and if over 66 ui, I use corner braces. Matter of fact, floaters are my favourite job. Good therapy, and you don’t have to clean glass.

 

[optimystery]

With 12mm thickness, I would suggest 10mm v-nails.
I've had very little luck with the 7mm ones. Mostly I use 10-12mm, and the occasional 15mm, but that is more likely to be a Hoffmann key these days.
Notice that the v-nails are sharpened only on the inside of the V. That causes them to pull outward when driven in the frame stock. It exerts inward pressure on the joint helping the make a good glue bond. It can also follow the wood grain and veer enough to emerge on the outside of the joint. That is more likely to happen with hardwoods than with softwoods. A 12mm wide float frame would be an easy victim of this kind of damage.

Do you mean that 7mm v-nails are more likely to follow the wood grain, or was there some other reason you preferred 10mm?

 

[optimystery]

I am not sure that if you are framing a warped piece, that the floater frame will be enough to correct that. Maybe for a little bit, until it moves with the canvas and also becomes warped. I would expect some of the corners to pop at some point.
Maybe better to re-stretch it.

I don't build floater frames anymore and order them joined. Just because they are a pain to cut and join (I also hate floater frames and wish that look would quietly go away, but that is just my personal dislike)

It's pretty mild, but would be noticeable hanging the canvas directly on the wall. I will try and correct with corner bracing in the stretcher bars (wedges that come with the stretcher bars). It's museum wrap (thin stretcher bars), so the floater frame will have a lot more structural strength I think.

 

[optimystery]

I do a lot of floaters. 15mm v-nails, and I rip pine strips to ensure the canvas is flush with the top of the floater. These also solve the problem of excess canvas in the corners. I use offsets, and if over 66 ui, I use corner braces. Matter of fact, floaters are my favourite job. Good therapy, and you don’t have to clean glass.

The moulding I'm using here only has 12mm of available mass to push a v-nail into, unless you're aiming it into the upright 33mm bit?
Kind of hard to visualise without seeing it or having done it before!

 

[JFeig]

One trick used is in regards to the direction of the nail placement into the frame moulding.
Placing the nails from only the horizontal rails (the top and bottom) will not be normally visible to the viewer. This leaves the sides without nail holes to fill in.
This is not the normal "butterfly" placement of all nails being inserted from either the left or right of the vise dependent on you being either right or left handed.

 

[Mary Beth van der Horst]

The moulding I'm using here only has 12mm of available mass to push a v-nail into, unless you're aiming it into the upright 33mm bit?
Kind of hard to visualise without seeing it or having done it before!

I'm usually with Ylva and order floats prejoined when I can, but yes, when I do build them, I will carefully shoot a 15mm V-nail into the tall part of the moulding, and use 7mms for the flat thin portion. Always with a good bit of glue to reinforce the bond. I've made some teeny tiny floaters in the past as well where the legs were too short to put into a clamp after joining opposite corners, so for those, I would glue and V-nail 2 corners, and just glue the last two using a band clamp. I think I'm a little more conservative with screws than wpfay, but I'm much less experienced than him, so I'll never argue with his expertise!

 

[alacrity8]

I do a lot of floaters. 15mm v-nails, and I rip pine strips to ensure the canvas is flush with the top of the floater. These also solve the problem of excess canvas in the corners. I use offsets, and if over 66 ui, I use corner braces. Matter of fact, floaters are my favourite job. Good therapy, and you don’t have to clean glass.

This poses an interesting question:
How far back from the front lip of a Float Frame do you place the art, and why?

Tedh seems to be flush with the front lip of the frame.

I tend to set the art 7mm back from the front of the frame.
This give a tiny amount of protection, where something touching/leaning on the frame will not touch the art.

Other depths/reasons?


Another question, do matric using countries use United Inch, United Centimeter, or something else for basic frame measures?

 

[wpfay]

Do you mean that 7mm v-nails are more likely to follow the wood grain, or was there some other reason you preferred 10mm?

Either can be deflected by the grain which it is so difficult v-nailing oak and ash mouldings. I just don't think the 7mm by itself offers enough holding power, and the 10mm won't come through. I don't know if you can insert 15mm v-nails with the tools you have, but you are correct in the assumption that they would only be used under the taller section of the profile.

 

[wpfay]

This poses an interesting question:
How far back from the front lip of a Float Frame do you place the art, and why?

Tedh seems to be flush with the front lip of the frame.

I tend to set the art 7mm back from the front of the frame.
This give a tiny amount of protection, where something touching/leaning on the frame will not touch the art.

Other depths/reasons?


Another question, do matric using countries use United Inch, United Centimeter, or something else for basic frame measures?

Depends on what the client wants. Some leave it to me, and I recess them about 6.35mm (1/4") for exactly the reason stated.

Brian, I let the POS software decide, and it speaks only in inches. The last kitchen cabinets I built were designed in metric. The panel saw and the computer driven work station that cut all the panels were both from the EU and were in metric. All the rest of the tools used inches.

 

[optimystery]

Either can be deflected by the grain which it is so difficult v-nailing oak and ash mouldings. I just don't think the 7mm by itself offers enough holding power, and the 10mm won't come through. I don't know if you can insert 15mm v-nails with the tools you have, but you are correct in the assumption that they would only be used under the taller section of the profile.

Thanks for clarifying, I am ordering both 7mm and 10mm so can try those out on some offcuts.
Yes, I doubt the lever-operated BenchMaster would be adequate or accurate for 15mm, and it's yet to be seen how well it works at all.

I'm using Ayous moulding, so hopefully it will handle 10mm v-nails through lever pressure!

I've always seen float mounts in galleries done flush with the canvas, and think that looks best personally.

 

[Rick Granick]

I've always seen float mounts in galleries done flush with the canvas, and think that looks best personally.

Are you sure those were actually true floater frames? They could have been lath moulding just nailed into the sides of the canvas stretcher. That has long been a favorite way for artists to cheaply finish their paintings.
Rick

 

[Ylva]

I always recess a bit as well if the customer leaves it up to me. It is a discussion at the design table.

As for how galleries frame; I have seen too many awful things where galleries did the framing that I don't care what they do or recommend.

I find the slightly recessed more pleasing personally. But the slightly better protective factor is what is more important to me.

 

[optimystery]

Are you sure those were actually true floater frames? They could have been lath moulding just nailed into the sides of the canvas stretcher. That has long been a favorite way for artists to cheaply finish their paintings.
Rick

I saw a few of those on paintings from the 60s (often quite rough), but generally newer stuff seems to be mounted flush, unless it's in wedge-shaped frames. Maybe 1-2mm recessed though.

 

[optimystery]

Reviving this thread as I've just seen a video where the framer strongly recommends sealing the back of the painting, in this case with stapled on foamcore. He says it's to keep out dust (which can lead to moisture buildup) and bugs. Is this common practice?

The mouldings I have access to are 21mm rebate, which would not leave any room for foamcore..

 

[Ylva]

I use flaw board instead of foam core. I use it mostly for protection purposes (so no one punctures it from the back)
It does keep out bugs and dust as well.

Not sure if I would call it common practice. More like common sense practice

 

[tedh]

Back to the “flush” approach: not sure if a slight recess will do much in the way of protecting the canvas, because of the perils that a bare canvas faces: being leaned against a pointed object, or anything at all touching the unprotected image. In my 25 years, the most common damage is from being leaned against something that deforms the material. In this case, Ylva’s flawboard backing is a great idea.

 

[wpfay]

Basically, you can't control humidity without vapor barriers.
The two known vapor barriers are glass and metal.
You can control dust and mold.

 

[optimystery]

I posted another thread asking about hanging methods (hangz) specifically, but thought I should update this one, as I completed my first 5 float frames and learned quite a bit in the process.

For tall mouldings, the Morso at my MAFA workshop was the only viable way to get good mitres. Even that isn't perfectly true, and has a nick in one of the blades. It's for everyday use, so probably ends of chopping things it shouldn't, but is workable.
It's way better than my Logan mitre sander which seems to have a vertical curve, though for shallow mouldings, sanding near the centre of the disc might still be ok.

Next time I will probably just try ordering chop, since I can do everything else at home.
In any case the joins are really neat and level with no gaps. These frames look lovely and really enhance the paintings!

The frames were glued wit a strap clamp of the kind that allows some space around the mitre joint (useful for removing excess glue with a damp cloth before it dries)
For the first 2 frames, I drilled 1mm holes and tapped in nails with the heads snipped off at opposing right angles, as was suggested.
For the next 3 I just used 2 10mm v-nails in the corners. The BenchMaster works fine for this.
Since the stretcher bars were screwed into the frame, I thought screws + glue + v-nails ought to be fine.
For the first 2 frames, 2-hole d-rings were attached on the sides.
For the last 3 I attached them at the top, partly because the screws I was using were too long for the shallow part of the moulding, and partly assuming they'd be easier to hang this way.

Foamcore is stapled into the back as a barrier, 2 pieces stuck with framer's tape for the 96.5cm paintings.
Finally, I've signed them on the foamcore.
The one thing I possibly missed was sealing the edges with tape.

I was lucky to have 2 very helpful technicians in the workshop, one of whom used to work as a framer.

 

[Ylva]

One word of advice: don't sign what is detachable from the art. I do hope you signed your art itself.

 

[optimystery]

One word of advice: don't sign what is detachable from the art. I do hope you signed your art itself.

I will remember to sign the back of the canvas next time

 

[wpfay]

It was a lot of work getting there, but I think you have a success.
The whole thing is very neat and tidy and works well with your art.

Yes, always sign and date your work where it can't be separated from the art, and if you might want to start coding them so you can easily identify the work later on (should a collector want a companion piece for example). Curation is easier as you go than trying to cobble it together later on.

 

[Mdsales2002]

In the past I would V-Nail the corners on a Float Frame with a Pneumatic V-nailer.
This allows me to stack two 10mm V-nails.
Occasionally the V-nails would take a wrong turn, and go out the side of the thin Float Frame.
I have now switched to a Hoffman Thumbnail machine.

It is often a good idea, on tall frames like Float Frames, to install nails from the side of the moulding.
That means glue the corner, then drill two holes (smallest drill bit, or a nail with the head removed) in the corner, probably about 8 mm back from the front, and 8 mm up from the back.
Install the thinnest nails that fit snugly into the holes.
Inset the nails, and fill the hole with corner putty.

If done well, the nail holes shouldn't be noticeable.
This is the method used before V-nails for all frames, and still used by many for tall frames.

In addition to this method, while the frame is still in the vise, I'll add a band clamp to hold those top rails in really nice and snug. that's the moulding joining part. Now the fitting, you will need to decide how much reveal is all around the painting. From there you should put the reveal width of shims or spacers between the canvas and the moulding so that your reveal will stay even all around while you attach it on the backside.