Bad practice? Or me being a silly sausage?

Create a Post
W

Willy Funtime

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Dec 8, 2024
Posts
9
Loc
Bristol, UK
Business
Framer
Hi there! Perhaps some experienced heroes can help me with something thats been doing my head in. Been in the framing game a year or so.. really enjoying it, getting better and better, so far so good. I always advise customers to go for methods where the work is kept away from the glass.. window mounts.. floating etc.. but i still see framed work everywhere where the art is just right up against the glass right up to the edges of the frame. No mount or float or any kind of hinging. Is that just bad practice? Is there a situation where thats ok? Just seems weird that so many people have things framed that way when its just not what i was taught..
Thanks friends x
 
May I ask, where are you seeing art displayed this way?
Fine art galleries and shows, local art fairs, coffee shops?
Curious to understand what level of framing knowledge was applied to the items you have seen.

An amateur artist who is showing in a coffee shop will generally try to set up their display at as low a cost as possible. Such as you describe.

Fine art galleries and artists who are at an advanced level of understanding and knowledge of framing practices should know better than to use the practices you describe.

Yes, you are correct. In almost all cases, keeping the item (original art, fine art reproduction, photo, etc.) from direct contact with glass is the accepted industry standard.

However, as with many things, there are some exceptions.

For example; there is a difference between glass and acrylic in regards to direct contact. DCO (Direct Contact Overlay) using acrylic (preferable Conservation or Optium acrylic) is an accepted practice, if used in the correct manner, with the understanding of the pros and cons of this method.
In certain framing situations, DCO is the best option.
Understanding when to use it and when not to use it is the key.

If the item being displayed is not of much value, then some of my customers do choose direct contact with glazing with no mat in a small narrow frame as a "minimalist" presentation.
"How cheap can I get this done?" is the phrase we really don't want to hear, but sometimes all the customer wants is an inexpensive poster under glass.

As you, I always advise them of the possible consequences of this.

All you can do is learn as much as you can, and pass that knowledge on to your customers to help them make decisions that will keep their item in as good a condition as possible while it is being displayed.
 
As a general rule, framed items should be spaced away from the glass. The hazard is that the glass is prone to develop condensation quickly when the frame is exposed to a rapid or radical change of temperature. Humidity inside the frame is a factor, too. (For more on this, look up a "dew point" chart.) When condensation forms inside the glass, the art will surely be damaged as water spots, cockling, or tide-lines on paper or fabric items; photos may irreparably stick to the glass.

The rapid or radical change inside the frame can happen when it is exposed to sunlight or other intense radiation through the glazing, or when moving quickly from a cool place to a warm place without an insulating wrapping. Note that if the framed art is always kept in a temperate environment, with no exposure to ambient changes, then condensation may never form. However, condensation inside the frame can cause permanent damage in only one dew point episode. For example, a frame can be immediately and irreparably damaged by hauling it home from the frame shop in the hot trunk of a car in summer, or a cold trunk in winter. The prevention is to insulate the frame package in order to slow the rate of change inside the frame.

When direct contact overlay (DCO) mounting onto the glazing, be sure to use only acrylic glazing and not glass. The advantage of acrylic is that it has much better thermal properties and is much slower to condense moisture. This is important because most harmful dew point conditions are very brief.

For example, if a glass of iced beverage is placed on a table outside (warm outside/cool inside), moisture will condense on the outside of the glass. Or, if a hot beverage is in the glass, condensation will form inside the glass above the liquid's surface. Either way, the temperature & humidity differential will go away as the conditions equalize. Then, the condensation will evaporate away in free air, or soak into porous materials in the closed frame environment.

Hope that makes sense.
 
sub GIF
Happy Dance GIF
French Dance GIF by stray.derps
 
As a half actual German and mostly wanna-be-full-fledged-German, I appreciate most kinds of Sausage, silly or not. But preferably grilled and with real (NOT "Frenches") Mustard. And sauerkraut (that should be a given).
 
David Waldmann said:
As a half actual German and mostly wanna-be-full-fledged-German, I appreciate most kinds of Sausage, silly or not. But preferably grilled and with real (NOT "Frenches") Mustard. And sauerkraut (that should be a given).
Click to expand...
RoboFramer said:
The wurst is yet to come!
Click to expand...
Bring it on, I'll take all your bratWurst. And any other sausages (other than Swedish, there is another thread devoted to why I hate it). And with just about any kind of mustard but hold the kraut (not a fan). 🌭🌭😋
 
I've seen a lot of 'close framed' stuff and some survives quite well with no ill effects. But a lot depends
on where the framed item is located. Store it temporarily somewhere damp and they will go bad very quickly.
On the whole it IS bad practice. I have a little watercolour that is stuck to the glass and I gave a lady a fiver for
it purely so I could wheel it out to show people what happens if you don't space art away from glass.
Apart from that people don't realise that paper expands according the the moisture content and if it is crimped
around the perimeter and if it can't go <> it will go ~~~~~~. :(

giddygoat.webp
 
Well, this thread cursed me.
I had a piece come back yesterday.
A fairly large papyrus, done minimally.
Narrow black metal frame.
Single mat over edges of papyrus, no spacing, so some direct contact at high points of uneven art material.
Acrylic glazing.

The acrylic has"popped" out at the top, the horizontal axis.
While discussing, the customer described where the item was displayed.
Hanging above a mantle over an electric fire place.

I explained the contraction/expansion cycle, which is exactly why this problem occurred.
I am refitting at no charge, plus adding extra tension wires to the metal rails to hopefully help minimize this happening again.
And I will caution him again that the location is not ideal.
 
All good advice and funny puns so far,
Idk if anyone has mentioned glass spacers yet. I pretty much tell my customers that's what we're going to use by default when they insist on a matless-minimal look(or acrylic DCO). If it's an easily reproducible artwork like a poster or photo, I will drymount it for a total surface adhesion and slip plastic glass spacers under the lip of the frame between the glass and artwork. It's really only appropriate after a full surface adhesion or else the pressure on the outside only of the art will cause issues. Once completed with thin(~1/8") spacers it's not so noticeable that the art is even separated from the glass, but it will at least have the minimal breathing room to avoid condensation damage.

But of course people have framed many many things straight against the glass, because most people aren't experienced or educated framers, and we will continue to see them everywhere. So many people think framing is an easy DIY part of decorating and there's nothing to it other than buying a frame, inserting artwork, and affixing to the wall. There's a point for all of us professional framers early on when we start accumulating knowledge about the proper Do's and Don'ts and will start to notice all of the blatant horror shows hanging on the walls of public spaces. It's like a little siren going off sitting at an office or the bank and noticing a print that has slipped it's mount and is crawling into the mat opening, or another print that's already accumulating mold damage due to improper glazing and location, or just a badly joined corner. It's the framer's curse. You will never be able to ignore a bad frame job again!
 
So true MB.
I too find myself looking at framed art/photos in lots of places and after a bit of time enjoying the subject matter, inevitably start to look at the framing with a critical eye.
Are the double mats even? Are there overcuts? Do I like the colour choices?
How are the frame corners? Miters nice and tight? Chipped corners?
Is that canvas framed skewed? Looks off balance to my eye. I see a pucker in one corner.
Etc., etc.
 
In addition to that, I'm hypersensitive to lighting in places. One of our favorite restaurants, a family-owned Italian place, has a nice atmosphere with warm lighting (probably about 2700°K), but one of their track light bulbs must have gone out, and they replaced it with a 5000°K bulb. Totally messes up the ambience in that corner. Just sayin'.
:cool: Rick
 
Nikodeumus said:
Well, this thread cursed me.
I had a piece come back yesterday.
A fairly large papyrus, done minimally.
Narrow black metal frame.
Single mat over edges of papyrus, no spacing, so some direct contact at high points of uneven art material.
Acrylic glazing.

The acrylic has"popped" out at the top, the horizontal axis.
While discussing, the customer described where the item was displayed.
Hanging above a mantle over an electric fire place.

I explained the contraction/expansion cycle, which is exactly why this problem occurred.
I am refitting at no charge, plus adding extra tension wires to the metal rails to hopefully help minimize this happening again.
And I will caution him again that the location is not ideal.
Click to expand...
It also helps to leave out the spring clips, when using acrylic with a metal frame.
We then fill the back with foam core, to depth. How big is the piece, and how wide is the rabbet?
 
Hi, Will Funtime. Great question, and all good answers, above. :)

The answer to your question also involves values/awareness, and tailoring one's business model to meet them.
From a customer perspective, it's seen in buying choices. Do they most value...

- Longevity/preservation.
- Cycling easily replaced decor
- Perceived cost savings
- Perceived convenience
- Learning the range of properties of framing materials
- Not learning same

How and where people buy framing often answers these questions.
Sometimes, those answers could change, with a bit of education.
At others, the customer prefers not to be educated.

As for business models, that also comes down to value and awareness, as well as one's skill set.
How does a business owner prioritize the following, and can they create a model that best serves these values?

- Financial success
- Meeting customer expectations
- Customer education
- Aligning results with personal values/aesthetics
- Having a fulfilling work lifestyle

With your original question, what you're seeing is one expression of the above. Many people buy framing,
without regard/understanding for how well it will last. Because of this, a huge market exists that services their needs.
Plenty of framers successfully tap into this market, and it's easy for those of us with different values, to disparage them.
But, the truth is, they're successfully serving a market, and profiting from it. On the other hand, one might prefer to
focus on offering higher quality, longer-lasting framing, and educating as to why it matters. This model can also succeed,
if one finds a supportive customer base.

Some businesses choose one path and stay in that lane. Others, especially at smaller shops, often do both.
This is where education comes in, because a brief explanation can really help a customer short out their values.
Because of this, most of my customers choose better quality materials and methods, but I do offer both.
If a customer insists on using lower quality materials, or a method with pitfalls, I make sure they understand
what they are getting. (And sometimes, if it would really botch the art, I send them off to find a better fit.)

So, the answer to your question depends on what one values. If it's longevity, then best to avoid pressing art
to glass. And given that, the methods described above are best heeded. If longevity is not an issue, and
the customer is well-informed, then other methods are used. Thanks for reading a long note, and would
love to hear more of your thoughts.
 
Last edited:
Shayla said:
Hi, Will Funtime. Great question, and all good answers, above. :)

The answer to your question also involves values/awareness, and tailoring one's business model to meet them.
From a customer perspective, it's seen in buying choices. Do they most value...

- Longevity/preservation.
- Cycling easily replaced decor
- Perceived cost savings
- Perceived convenience
- Learning the range of properties of framing materials
- Not learning same

How and where people buy framing often answers these questions.
Sometimes, those answers could change, with a bit of education.
At others, the customer prefers not to be educated.

As for business models, that also comes down to value and awareness, as well as one's skill set.
How does a business owner prioritize the following, and can they create a model that best serves these values?

- Financial success
- Meeting customer expectations
- Customer education
- Aligning results with personal values/aesthetics
- Having a fulfilling work lifestyle

With your original question, what you're seeing is one expression of the above. Many people buy framing,
without regard/understanding for how well it will last. Because of this, a huge market exists that services their needs.
Plenty of framers successfully tap into this market, and it's easy for those of us with different values, to disparage them.
But, the truth is, they're successfully serving a market, and profiting from it. On the other hand, one might prefer to
focus on offering higher quality, longer-lasting framing, and educating as to why it matters. This model can also succeed,
if one finds a supportive customer base.

Some businesses choose one path and stay in that lane. Others, especially at smaller shops, often do both.
This is where education comes in, because a brief explanation can really help a customer short out their values.
Because of this, most of my customers choose better quality materials and methods, but I do offer both.
If a customer insists on using lower quality materials, or a method with pitfalls, I make sure they understand
what they are getting. (And sometimes, if it would really botch the art, I send them off to find a better fit.)

So, the answer to your question depends on what one values. If it's longevity, then best to avoid pressing art
to glass. And given that, the methods described above are best heeded. If longevity is not an issue, and
the customer is well-informed, then other methods are used. Thanks for reading a long note, and would
love to hear more of your thoughts.
Click to expand...
Well worded summation Shayla.
 
I get stuck framing this way often for gallery shows because they don't want to pay for mats and extra moulding. (insert eye roll here) I just always use spacers and they keeps the art off the glass and is easy. Not my favortie but it makes it a little safer.
 
Eric A said:
I get stuck framing this way often for gallery shows because they don't want to pay for mats and extra moulding. (insert eye roll here) I just always use spacers and they keeps the art off the glass and is easy. Not my favortie but it makes it a little safer.
Click to expand...
Do you mount the art to foam core?
 
Shayla said:
Do you mount the art to foam core?
Click to expand...
No, not usally. It just kind of holds it around the edges. For sure not ideal but most of the time they get bought and are right back in my shop to be framed properly and in a nicer frame or they strip them out after the show and put new art in for the next.
 
Jim Miller said:
As a general rule, framed items should be spaced away from the glass. The hazard is that the glass is prone to develop condensation quickly when the frame is exposed to a rapid or radical change of temperature. Humidity inside the frame is a factor, too. (For more on this, look up a "dew point" chart.) When condensation forms inside the glass, the art will surely be damaged as water spots, cockling, or tide-lines on paper or fabric items; photos may irreparably stick to the glass.

The rapid or radical change inside the frame can happen when it is exposed to sunlight or other intense radiation through the glazing, or when moving quickly from a cool place to a warm place without an insulating wrapping. Note that if the framed art is always kept in a temperate environment, with no exposure to ambient changes, then condensation may never form. However, condensation inside the frame can cause permanent damage in only one dew point episode. For example, a frame can be immediately and irreparably damaged by hauling it home from the frame shop in the hot trunk of a car in summer, or a cold trunk in winter. The prevention is to insulate the frame package in order to slow the rate of change inside the frame.

When direct contact overlay (DCO) mounting onto the glazing, be sure to use only acrylic glazing and not glass. The advantage of acrylic is that it has much better thermal properties and is much slower to condense moisture. This is important because most harmful dew point conditions are very brief.

For example, if a glass of iced beverage is placed on a table outside (warm outside/cool inside), moisture will condense on the outside of the glass. Or, if a hot beverage is in the glass, condensation will form inside the glass above the liquid's surface. Either way, the temperature & humidity differential will go away as the conditions equalize. Then, the condensation will evaporate away in free air, or soak into porous materials in the closed frame environment.

Hope that makes sense.
Click to expand...
This is really useful info! Thanks a lot for this, its a lot clearer now why its generally not the thing to do, but its not guaranteed to go wrong if things are framed that way! x
 
Create a Post
Back
Top