Attach-EZ--Where it fits in todays market.

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Patricia Kotnour

Patricia Kotnour

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Industry Vendor
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CEO of Attach-EZ, inc
As the creator of Attach-EZ and after doing many demonstrations around the country I thought it was time to say something about where I see Attach-EZ in the framing industry. One of the most common remarks I have heard at the shows is, "wow, I don't have to sew anymore!" As I have always stated in my demonstrations, "this system is not for everything". If the article being mounted is very valuable, old, or fragile you still need to get out the needle and thread. Attach-EZ should never be used exclusively in any shop. In my estimation it is, and always will be, necessary for every framer to know the correct archival way of mounting fabric artwork, and to be able to recognize where it is appropriate to use Attach-EZ, and where it is not. The educators are invaluable to the faming industry for that reason. They teach all aspects of framing and all framers need to be educated in the industry that provides their livelihood. Attach-EZ will have its place in most shops and can be used for the many jobs that do not require (and the customer will not pay for) archival mounting. It works great for items such as name doilies that are so labor intensive that the shop can't make money on them or won't get the job if they charge what its worth. Or, for the kid's hockey jerseys, T-shirts, award patches, and ribbons, etc. In today's market it's important to step outside the box. What you find could really help to improve your bottom line. Attach-EZ was designed to add value by greatly reducing the amount of time and labor expended in the mounting of fabric artwork. The system should be used just like any other tool that can make a shop's operation more efficient and profitable. The item being mounted will dictate the appropriateness of its use.
 
just one small hint. please put a space or two in your writing as it is hard on tired eyes to follow a lot of writing.

tired betty
 
Sorry, I will keep that in mind if I post again.

I think it may be to late to change this one.

Thanks for the helpful hint.
 
Thanks, PK for reminding everyone about something they should already know. Use what is appropriate for the work involved. Just because we have glue in the store, doesn't mean we are supposed to use it on everything that comes thru the door.
I believe it's called common sense.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Ms. Kotnour; Thanks for replying directly.But if you would be so kind would you please answer the following.
Since it now seems that we are all in agreement that the AEZ is more a tool for purely decorative type mounting. And furthermore, there also seems to be a few alternative tools on the market that can do equally well at non-conservation type mounting. Would you please explain the large difference in the cost between your product and those that it has been compared to; such as the one in the SSW catalog on page 77 and the Avery Dennison model mentioned as distributed at various outlets?

This is a post referring to the SSW model and the Nylon referral is in reference to a complaint I heard attributed to the bad properties of that material: “by some amazing coincidence I received this morning a Store Supply Catalog in the mail. In it on page 77, you guessed it, was another tag gun-add. I called them and asked what the tags were made of, since all the add says is SSW. They informed me that they were made of "POLYPROPYLENE" not nylon and there is a FINE gun to which they are sending me samples of the tags. Please also note that if you use the REGULAR tags they come in an assortment of colors (No need to use colored markers.). The fine gun-kit with one gun, one box of 4 replacement needles, 5000 1 inch tags and 5000 2 inch tags sales for the ungodly price of $24.95. The regular gun is the same kit except it has 3 inch tags not 2 and it's price is a whopping $19.95.”
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF®
DBA Needles and Knots
Chalmette,La.
 
Hi Buddy.
I was very interested in your post on tag guns.
I have just purchaed two of these guns and tags, and would be interested,(if possible) in what the complaint was against the properties of the nylon tags. I have used the guns on a test piece and they are great, as stated they save a lot of time.
Regards kalta
 
So what you're saying is I shouldn't use the AttachEz on a pro football jersey signed presumedly signed by the team?

I'd like to hear how others sew through the mount and not ruin their fingers.
 
Originally posted by BUDDY:
...Since it now seems that we are all in agreement that the AEZ is more a tool for purely decorative type mounting...
Click to expand...
Well, not exactly in total agreement -- but almost. Attach-EZ certainly is a time saver for "purely decorative" items, no doubt about that. But I consider it suitable for items requiring a moderate level of preservation, as well.

The nylon isn't much of a problem in our real-world framing jobs, I think. Sure, it will deteriorate over time, especially from light exposure. But most of our jobs would have the nylon devices out of sight, and out of light. If the nylon thingys begin to weaken in two decades and start to fail in forty years, maybe it's time to remount and update the framing anyway. After all, it's a reversible mount -- not like sticky board.

A hobbyist's cross stitch, for example, may be Attach-EZ mounted with better preservation than pinning. Much faster than lacing, but with most of the benefits. We simply lace among the nylon devices. I have developed an easy method for that.

The typical signed athletic jersey is a good candidate for Attach-EZ mounting, too. While it's not quite as good for preservation purposes as sewing with cotton thread, it's still pretty good, and much faster. With a 4-ply filler board, Attach-EZ provides better support with fewer attachment points. And if you poke the needle through garment-back seams instead of through the fabric itself -- always a good idea anyway -- there's very little damage to the garment. I'd say it's suitable for the majority of such framing jobs.

But there's still the occasional maximum-preservation jobs, for which Attach-EZ is not recommended by anybody: the heirloom sampler that's falling apart; the fine silk scarf/flag/garment; the rare textile of high sentimental or monetary value. For those things, we should still use the most appropriate, non-invasive methods & materials available.

As for the cheaper alternatives from non-framing suppliers, I haven't bought them. Fletcher-Terry brought this device to my attention, so I bought it from their distributor. I will buy more of the nylon attachments from their distributor, too.

It's an initial investment of less than $150, for Heaven's sake, which has a cost recovery period of about 3 cross stitch mounts, in my shop.

At a typical shop labor rate of $40-$60 per hour, how much could a framer save by spending a half-day shopping for a cheaper tool online? What about minimum order restrictions and packing/shipping costs to buy only that item from an infrequent, out-of-industry supplier?

For the one-time extra cost of $25 or $35 ,I'll buy Attach-EZ from United (our sponsor, don't forget) or another Fletcher distributor, where I can get exactly what I need, when I need it, without suffering extra acquisition costs.

[ 09-25-2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Jim Miller ]
 
I think those tabs are ugly and detract from a decorative object. All I would see would be price tag tabs. If it is decorative, what's the point in making it look bad.
 
Susan, do you mean the ends of the nylon tags? I don't remember seeing them at all once they were either colored or buried inside a seam of crochet knot. They looked very small and are not meant to be visible. Am I reading your question correctly?
 
I saw them all over a jersey and they were not hidden at all. They looked terrible. It was at a display trying to sell these things. If they could become hidden I might think through my pejudice.
 
Like sewing, it depends on the skill and good judgement of the stitcher. Obviously, Susan, you would care enough to place the tags discreetly.

AE would be wise to improve presentation and demonstration at shows. Show the best first. Showing inferior attachment methods is qucikly getting AE a bad reputation.
 
Originally posted by SusanNolan:
I think those tabs are ugly and detract from a decorative object...
Click to expand...
I agree, which is why I suggest placing the attachments under the top layer of fabric, where they are out of sight.
 
Thanks Jimmy, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Buddy you have answered one of your own questions when you say that the fasteners are polypropylene, 1, 2, and 3 inches long. You will have to use framers tape to secure the fasteners because the length of the fasteners will be way to long to work efficiently. The polypropylene fastener will break down faster, but that probably won't matter as much as the tape. The tape is likely to dry out and let go before the fastener does. The result will be sagging fabric artwork.

With Attach-EZ the fasteners are lengths that match foam board depths so taping is not necessary, and as Jimmy pointed out, very few are needed meaning less damage to the item being mounted.

The Attach-EZ kit has 8 separate components designed to give a shop everything they need to mount all types of object and fabric artwork. There are 2 hand-tools, 3 different sizes of fasteners, none of which is longer than a half inch, and all are 100% nylon. Extra needles for both hand tools and an instruction booklet that gives detailed information on using the tools, and fasteners, are included as well. The booklet shows how to mount doilies, and shirts, and has many other hints to make fabric artwork mounting easier. All of the fasteners and needles are very fine so they will do minimal, if any, damage to the fabric.

When using the Microtach hand-tool and fasteners that come in the Complete Kit a framer can mount a doily in minutes. Buddy, you will not be able to use your system on doilies at all.

Yes, there are differences in price, but there are also huge differences in what you are buying. A good analogy would be if a person has an odd shaped picture that they want to have framed and go to an art supply store to buy a ready made frame and mat. The picture doesn't fit well, but the framing only cost $25. Or, that same person brings the picture to your shop where you custom fit everything and charge $150. Both ways work. Its just that the more expensive way works and looks a whole lot better.

Susan, if what you saw had the fasteners on the front side of the shirt, where they were visible, then the framer was not using the Attach-EZ system. Or, if they were, they didn't follow the directions. The system is designed so that none of the fasteners should ever be noticeable and in most cases they will be totally hidden.
 
Ms. P. Kotnour
I am curios as to why you say; " Buddy, you will not be able to use your system on doilies at all.” I understand that you say that the limitation of the system I suggested is that it requires attaching the tags to the reverse side with some form of tape (which is less than conservation standards) but so to are the Nylon tags. And if the tape is used it can always be reapplied if it fails. However there are many forms of tape whose properties are such that this isn’t much of a factor. In Fact the opposite is the problem most of the time (Not being reversible), and sense neither is truly conservation quality (Tape nor the Nylon tags) wouldn’t it be better to have the culprit on the reverse side of the mount board then stuck through the fabric?
However the gun I suggested did come in both a regular and a fine tag size. I did obtain some of the fine tags and they seem fairly thin but they should work but at a cost of much less than $150 as is being suggested (The fine gun kit with one gun, one box of 4 replacement needles, 5000 1 inch tags and 5000 2 inch tags sells for the price of $24.95.) .
However if my suggestion seems inappropriate to save money then maybe a post on the Hitchhikers might be more fruitful. In fact it is very similar to that posted here by Marc Lizer.

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:59:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Benton <a-frame@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Micro Tacker from Avery Dennison

I have info coming from Western States Supply
regarding Avery Dennison's micro tack system (similar
to Terry Flecther) along with a some tacks to see how
they work. I was told WSS has some lookalike guns for
regular tacking for under $10 each. WSS has tacks as
short as .25" with "T" end. I think the paddle end
could be used if shot from the back. I see so many
possibilities. I will post the testing and prices.

Bill Benton
A-Frame
Dixon, CA

Is Mr. Benton's research also in error?
At any rate thanks for bringing the use of this time saving tool to the attention of Framers .I too am just trying to help by suggesting a source that might allow us to use this TOOL at the best price. When some suggest that the cost difference can easily be absorbed by the cost of a single framing job, I'm sure they are correct. However I am also sure that many of my friends in the Framing industry can also absorb the cost of much more costly pieces of equipment as well. However I'll bet they didn't get there by not watching out for the best price they could obtain for materials they used in becoming successful. Thanks once again and I'm sorry if any of my suggestions or research is in error, but I welcome anyone to correct my mistakes.

Charles BUDDY Drago CPF ®

[ 09-26-2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]
 
The Attach-EZ display was a display from, I believe, your company and I saw it in Atlanta.

Another thing that bothers me is the fact that the nylon is not always the thread of which the needlework is made. I use cotton with cotton, polyester with polyester, etc. How do you figure that into Attach-EZ?
 
Originally posted by SusanNolan:
...I use cotton with cotton, polyester with polyester, etc. How do you figure that into Attach-EZ?
Click to expand...
You don't. Attach EZ is for less-than-maximum preservation jobs. Nobody is suggesting that Attach EZ is suitable for mounting when a high level of presrvation is appropriate.

But when mounting the typical hobbyist's cross stitch or readily-available athletic jersey -- generally new and of limited value -- matching the textile's composition isn't a big deal.

It's important to match the thread to the textile in maximum-preservation mounting, where a foreign material could cause problems -- such as when the textile is valuable, and very fragile or chemically reactive. Then we sew. Carefully, and with thread of the same material.
 
Buddy, the micro has 1/4 inch tags which work great with a doily and suede board.

[ 09-26-2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: JPete ]
 
A typical hobbyist's cross stitch or a cheap handmaid doily (even a bought cheap handmade doily), will be precious to someone two or three generations from now, no matter whether it is a cheap kit or not. Anything from great grandma is a precious possession and speaks of someones life and the fact that an ancestor actually lived.

It is so sad that a person's life is boiled down to one family picture. It might not even be a good family picture. The person is an empty page with no likes or dislikes or vision of living. People only remember the picture. Possessions tell a bit of the story.
 
Originally posted by SusanNolan:
A typical hobbyist's cross stitch or a cheap handmaid doily (even a bought cheap handmade doily), will be precious to someone two or three generations from now, no matter whether it is a cheap kit or not.
Click to expand...
Yes, you're right about that. But we retail framers have to deal with competitive situations.

Attach-EZ allows us to mount with a much better preservation level than sticky board, and somewhat better than pinning, while keeping labor time to a minimum. In short, we can do a good job (as opposed to a great job) at much lower cost than the best preservation mount.

When price is not an issue, go ahead and lace it with matching thread. But if the alternative is to have that customer go a cheaper framer, where the mount would be sticky board or some other destructive method, then Attach-EZ becomes a good value.
 
I apologize for my passion on this.   I have a wall of ancestors in my home.   They each have a name and a face, but I know nothing else about them.   They are blank people who supplied my genes.   They are reduced to one picture and a grave for eternity.   What were these people like and how did they live.   Where is the stuff that where in their brains.   They spent a lifetime for nothing but a picture for me.   How sad. Again I apologize for my insistance on this issue.

I assume I will eventually use  Attach-EZ for some things because of the very things you say.
 
Susan, I stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you on this!!! I can't BELIEVE that framers who know better are willing to use this product on "hobbyist cross stitches" (worked by a member of someone's family) and signed jerseys (wanna price a Mantle signed child's souvenier?) Of course a lot of this won't be valuable in the future, but some of it will be, at least to someone, and how dare we presume to make that judgement? This is the same thinking that promotes the use of paper mats. We know better; why would we not do as well as we know?

I bet the BigBoxes are buying this machine by the carload!
 
Originally posted by EllenAtHowards:
...I can't BELIEVE that framers who know better are willing to use this product on "hobbyist cross stitches"...Of course a lot of this won't be valuable in the future, but some of it will be...We know better; why would we not do as well as we know?
Click to expand...
Ellen:

Are you thnking that Attach-EZ mounting is destructive? That's not necessarily so. I have a method of mounting cross stitch with the tool, which is a hybrid between lacing and pinning. It is at least as fast as pinning, but allows tensioning as with lacing.

Nobody says this tool is suitable for anything better than a moderate level of preservation, but that covers most of what most of us do, I think.
 
Jim,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember you doing a demonstration with the Attach EZ in the Shadowbox class in Atlanta.

(Well, I DID doze off a time or 2 when you were telling those jokes!) :D

Framerguy
 
Why does anyone care if anyone else elects to use this product? Why isn't this a personal decision based on one's own needs and uses?

We seem to want to impart our biases on others.

It reminds me of the Pope on Birth Control-If you don't want to play the game, you shouldn't make the rules.

Use it; don't use it. It's your choice for your shop-AND my choice for my shop.
 
Bob I don't agree. But I don't agree with two points you are trying to make.First that comment about the Pope got another well known politician in hot water before and for good reason. The Pope doesn't "PLAY THAT GAME" but his position (Atleast in the Catholic church) is to teach the rules handed down by Who went before him. Someone Else made them. But it is up to each of us to obey or disobey them. So in the regaurd of it being our responsibility the analogy is correct. My second point however is many of the Instructors in the Framing industry "DON'T Necessarily PLAY " the game in all it's aspects either but many others do seek their tutilage and insight and based on these teachings make their informed choices to "Obey or Diobey " the accepted thinking of what is correct and proper Framing.
And Finally if neither type of instruction were taught then we'd be left to our own devices and may or may not make the proper choices but then Isn't that what Instructors are for ,to give us the benefit of what has been taught before us?
So the Pope like other instructors only does us a diservice when he/they give us misleading/erronious advise,regaurdless of wether or not they have played the game.
BUDDY

[ 09-30-2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]
 
My good friend Buddy-I apologize for using an inappropriate analogy. I meant no offense to anyone.

I do think all of us understand the limitations and uses of this tool and should use it appropriately. I just think a blanket endorsement for or against this product is bordering on the emotional. And that is a poor way to make any decision.

The discussion should have been over after several thoughtful posts weeks ago. It's either going to work for you or it's not. But, there is nothing inherently evil about this tool or any other tool when used appropriately.
 
Bob no apology to me is necessary.I will never be included in those lofty circles and I doubt if anyone will ever follow my instructions. I just was trying to point out that I didn't feel that analogy helped make your point and for good reason.
However some key words in your last post do.e.g.
"a blanket endorsement "and "tool when used appropriately.".I do belive there was a few attempts to say this tool "DID NO HARM" which is the buzz words for true conservation practices.
And this was further fueled by the fact that if it where a non-conservation impliment then purchaseing it or a similar product at the lowest price only made good buying practices.(I think that is what I was taught?LOL)And there seems to be a few altenatives.
BUDDY

[ 09-30-2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]
 
OK, I'll stick my foot in it.
Regardless of the appropriate use of the tool in question, please explain why one could or should not buy the much less expensive tool from Avery Dennison and then purchase the tags from Fletcher?
Is there some proprietary modification to the AttachEZ that allows it to use the shorter tags? If not I would have to take issue with the claim that anyone "invented" the tool (modified use would seem more appropriate).
I have read this thread twice just now, and this question has been placed within the text of two separate posts and has not been addressed. It has been avoided and danced around which makes it seem to me to be a valid question. Anytime I think someone is avoiding answering a question, or is uncomfortable giving a direct answer I begin to suspect that they are not disclosing all that they know.
 
Wally: I'll attempt to answer you're question and hopefully I'm not revealing any secrets.

1) The gun(s) are not modified.
2) Avery does not sell direct.
3) The Micro gun is available from other distributors that cater to the garment industry.
4) The Attach-Ez does come with instruction specific to the framing industry. After all most garment manufactures are not trying to put a needle through mat board and foam (or other substrates) for that matter. It can be a costly little adventure buying needles if they are not used properly.

The fact that someone found the gun available for sale to anyone is interesting. Again, it brings up the question of who should be able to buy wholesale. That has been debated here numerous times.

I still find it amazing what a firestorm this device causes here on the G. I'm with Jim...use it in appropriate cases, if you like saving time, ie money then you'll like it at it's price, if you want to experiment with other taggers, please do so. All I know is that we sell a ton of them, especially after demonstrating it live and in person and whatever the reason for purchasing, a large number of framers see the value.

[ 10-01-2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: John Richards ]
 
John--Thanks for the straight forward answer. Your honesty and candidness is refreshing.
(I also find it amazing you can say all that without an emotional upheaval ;) )

Thanks again,
LeeAnn
 
Thank you, John.
I does then seem there is value added.
 
Originally posted by John Richards:
I still find it amazing what a firestorm this device causes here on the G.
Click to expand...
My unsolicited opinion of the "firestorm" is that when the inventor first came to the G she didn't answer the questions given her. She clammed up and it left a pretty wide gap of information. So, everybody here was told of the tool, hadn't seen it in action yet,and weren't having their questions addressed. Now she has some pretty heavyweight names in the industry representing her product(Fletcher), and they are doing the talking for her. I think if a known entity had come on from the beginning and introduced the new tool we would have been more open to it. Because that known entity would have had the answers ready before the questions were even asked. So, maybe she is an incredible "inventor" but a lousy salesperson. To sum it up, she got off on the wrong foot.

As to the pricing "firestorm" I don't think it is because we are all cheap, I just think it was obvious there are other tools out there that appeared to do the same exact thing for a fraction of the cost. Why pay three times as much if it is indeed the same gun? Nobody until John would even address that issue. So, once again, bad footing.

That is my totally neutral unbiased opinion of the Grumbles dis-eze with the Attach Eze.

I'm not all that enthused to get one. I don't mind sewing jerseys or pinning stitcheries. I view the Attach Eze like I view Lasik surgery. I can see well enough for the time being........I'm waitng for more results to come in before I commit. But on the other hand if someone can come up with some sort of device to fit and finish the finished product I will be on board immediately. I loathe fitting. I used to always stress at Michael's that fitting was the most important job in the framing chain, which it is. The fitter is the last person to see the product and they need to notice everything. But fitting is monkey work as far as I am concerned, I have nobody to pass it on to here. I hate it. So please invent a tool to do it all for me and I will pay any price, no questions asked......
 
John after reading your reply i am very appreciative for a reply at last. However when you said;
"1) The gun(s) are not modified.
2) Avery does not sell direct.
3) The Micro gun is available from other distributors that cater to the garment industry.
4) The Attach-Ez does come with instruction specific to the framing industry. After all most garment manufactures are not trying to put a needle through mat board and foam (or other substrates) for that matter. It can be a costly little adventure buying needles if they are not used properly.

The fact that someone found the gun available for sale to anyone is interesting. Again, it brings up the question of who should be able to buy wholesale. That has been debated here numerous times."

The only thing I see as a value added is the instruction .Those must be some very in depth instructions or there must have been something left out of the demonstrations to be worth as much as 3to 4 times as much as other guns.
However by the way, the comment about wholesale isn't exactly correct . While I'm sure some prices quoted do refelect wholesale some are straight out of a retail catlog or are quoted by distributors of Avery Dennison and no resale liscences were asked for ,so I'd assume they were selling to consummers not just frugal framers.
But your Straight forward reply is greatly appreciated and I truly hope you SELL a TON of them and the purchasers are completly satisfied,but for my use I'll buy the cheaper brand and use a bit of reasoning along with the instructions that come with them.
BUDDY
 
We all love a good conspiracy. The fact is, those of us who are using the Attach-Ez are not in a position to compare it with an Avery tagging gun from another source.

We have four choices:
</font>
  • Buy the Attach-Ez</font>
  • Buy a tagging gun from another source (framers don't follow directions, anyway)</font>
  • Stitch everything and don't use a tagging gun</font>
  • Spend a lot more time talking about it and defer any other decision until we retire</font>
It seems to me that, with John Richards' post above, we should all have the information we need to make a decision about the Attach-Ez.

Whatever you decide, God Bless ya, and let's move on with our lives.
 
I just received my Avery tagging gun from Western Supply and still fail to see the difference between it and the attach EZ other than the price...and yes I did see the demo at Atlanta.

Sorry but directions specific to framers will never justify four times the price to me. I think that most of us are smart enough to experiment and figure our how to use the Avery product without impailing ourselves on the needle.

While I very much want to support our members and sponsors, in these economic times I need to be very careful as to how I spend my bucks. A little extra effort and a couple of Band Aids will do just fine for me right now!!

Joel
 
Joel, that's perfectly okay.

Of the choices above, the only one I really have a problem with is number 4.
 
Hi.
I bought my complete tag gun kit in the UK from a trade supplier $101.20 less than the Fletcher AEZ kit. The guns are Avery Dennison by the way.
I think Fletcher could have "cleaned up" with this idea had they priced this more reasonably.

kalta
 
Sorry for the continued flogging of this way dead horse, but...

The thing that kind of gets me is the notion that Fletcher Terry has introduced this (seemingly identical) product at roughly three times the price. This has been discussed ad nauseum on the Grumble, and the Hitchiker, so it is pretty much common knowledge.
The sticky point is the notion that one of our industry leaders who we are supposed to look toward for guidance and help seems to have no problem sticking (pun intended) it to all of us little guys to increase their bottom line. If the EZ had been half as much as what I payed for mine in Atlanta (yes, you heard me), then maybe I could see the value, but THREE TIMES. This puts the Fletcher-Terry profit margin squarely on my back.
I have long felt the Fletcher mat cutters (wall mounted and table top) to be the best in the industry, other than my Eclipse. But, were we paying an extremely high price for those machines as well? I tend to think not, but would really appreciate someone from Fletcher explaining the company's rationale on this whole pricing thing.
 
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