Asian Scrolls ?

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5th corner

5th corner

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
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303
Loc
Australia
Have these two very long asian scrolls.

Want to know how to find out what they are worth before chopping off the ivory on one and somthing else scroll bit on the other.

If they are valuable they probably should be framed with the scroll left on.

Also there are tears on sides of slightly smaller one?

Someone who can tell me the value will determan how we frame these. Maybe a conservator should be involved.

Boss said just get em to sign and chop away but I don't feel comfortable doing that.

If they are valuable they may sell them rather than frame them.

They came out of Russia I think before the war. They had 8 hours to grab what they could fit in a locker and a suit case I think they said.

Interesting that these where grabbed.

Thanks in advance

Sam
 
Considering they chose those scrolls in their frenzy of grabbing "valuables", I would consider that the sentimental value is as important, or even more important, than the monetary value. Why risk it? And why would you want to "chop off"off the ivory or any part of them? For the framer's convenience, because it's easier than dealing with the bulk of that ivory rod? NOT! It's an important part of those scrolls, as well as the frayed edges. Just choose a deeper moulding and do what's right....leave it alone! No chopping!

Those scrolls have important significance among the families who own them, often for generations. They're sometimes difficult to work with, because of their size and frailty, but they deserve the respect of proper treatment that, as framers, we have learned to give them.

But you already knew that, didn't you, Sam?
 
People often make this kind of request because they just want the scrolls as "pictures" rather than the artifacts they are. I explain why trimming is a no-no, and how they should really be framed as you described. Frequently this becomes a no-sale when they find out that all of a sudden they need a shadow box job for a fragile (and usually oversize) object.
Makes me wonder whether they just roll 'em up again and take them out occasionally for viewing, or whether they go and find another framer who is willing to amputate the ends.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick

If the scrolls are obviously cheap tourist items, not antiques, I have told people that, although I can't trim them, if they 'happened to come in to me that way' I could mat and frame the images in the standard way.
 
I'll second what Val said. DO NOT cut them up!!

If the customer insists on it because of, well, whatever, tell them to bring it to you after THEY cut it the way they want. When the scissors are in the customer's hand and they are about to lay waste to their artwork it tends to sink in. Works every time.
 
Rick Granick said:
I explain why trimming is a no-no, and how they should really be framed as you described. Frequently this becomes a no-sale when they find out that all of a sudden they need a shadow box job for a fragile (and usually oversize) object.
Click to expand...

Bingo. I'd rather lose a sale, even a decent one, than to have it weighing on my mind that the customer might come back and accuse me of destroying the value of her (suddenly) priceless artwork. Yeah, she might take it to some other framer who will do it, but at least it's not my worry.
 
What a bunch of whimps!

Just give them a samurai sword and let em go to town..:thumbsup:

Nah, serious.. Ditto Rick and Dave.. don't have them cut the scroll in you shop... that could later be misconstrued as "duress".

Give them the quote both ways.... and let them go home and decide for themselves if the saving of $100-200 is worth the ruining of a valuable piece of cultural heritage.
 
The last two Japanese scrolls that I framed had those ivory dowels. She originaly wanted them removed, again to cut the cost of a shadow box. They had been in her husband's family for several generations. I refused to cut them, said if she really wanted them cut off, take them home and bring them back the way she wanted them. She finally gave in, but still whined about the additional cost.

When they picked them up she burst out in tears, and said she was so grateful that I'd stuck to my guns about whacking them up. Her husband didn't know she'd requested that, and was mortified that she'd even suggested it! Whew!!
 
Sorry for the decoy.

The owner of these artworks wants them framed well and i don't think money is an issue as one of the first things i said was that they were large.

Two they want UV plexi or at their request. I said it had to be plexi as the big one is 100 inches i think.

I was the one that talked about keeping them in tack or chopping. They had not thought about it. It is my obligation to give them the option and I am sure they are worth a bit so i am horrified at my boss saying just chop em and get em to sign.

How do i find out what they are worth? and do the tears needs repairing or do you just leave em alone?

Any suggestions on what frame to use. Other boss pulled off a flat square box frame. I think the client wants something simple. but we can go there one we dicide how to frame this thing.

I may need help on tecniques on how to frame this thing. eg how to attach it etc whether a board is required or if foam is sufficient. In any case i hope they got big wall for these.

The mat will need to be pliced, that i can probably handle although i am not sure our mat cutter cuts straight.

Interesting project ............thanks for comments and future comments as this project continues.
 
I framed three large scrolls last year that had little more than wood dowels on the ends...not valuable but still put the scissors in my customer's hands and had them cut them after they insisted on framing two dimensionally.

These were basically sumi reproduction scrolls. Nice and pretty, but not ancient or extremely valuable.

Dave Makielski
 
5th corner said:
It is my obligation to give them the option and I am sure they are worth a bit so i am horrified at my boss saying just chop em and get em to sign.

I give you alot of credit for asking the questions and following your instincts. Your boss sounds like a former boss of mine, he and I definitely had a difference in ethics and values. kudos to you.

Also check out this thread

http://thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=14218&highlight=framing+scrolls
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Great thread, Steph! Where was that when I did those two in October?? How did Merpsmom end up doing it?

I have another scroll coming up after Vegas....it'll be a doozey....very old and curly and fragile and loooong and verrry sentimentally valuable. And belongs to my aunt, so I'd better get it right! Ha!
 
The fabric surrounds of Asian scrolls are the Eastern equivilent of Western matting. They enhance the art, but aren't expected to last forever and are changed periodically. Necessary repairs etc. are made at the time of remounting. Japanese scroll surrounds would normally last 200 yrs or so (only seasonal display, stored otherwise in specially made wooden boxes). The end knobs would be saved and reused - or maybe changed depending on esthetics.

That being said, remountings can be expensive. A good Japanese style remount could be several thousand; Chinese are less elaborate and so cost much less. It's not easy to find people trained in either field here - often they are sent back to country of origin for remounting.

Vertical Chinese scrolls are supposed to have a concave curl at the edges - they curl towards the viewer, with the widest point at center height. The curls are called "ears".

Rebecca
 
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