American flag c. 1860's, very frail and tattered

[bsoucy]

Hello all,

I've been trying to research this and am thinking a best solution to frame this very old, Civil war-era flag is to use Jim Miller's direct contact overlay method with polyester quilt batting beneath a fabric of the client's choice and then sandwiched in with plexiglass. The flag measures 35.5" x 57" and she would like a border around the outside, so I can do a 1.5" border and stay within the 40x60 oversized materials. This person has indicated that she cannot afford to spend more than $1,000 on this project, so Optium museum acrylic is not an option. I tried to explain to her the importance of archival preservation. I read some old posts here on the Grumble and saw suggestions for sewing a similar old flag to matting and another idea of sewing to a fabric covered window screening stretched onto a canvas stretcher bar. This flag is so fragile and has a lot of tears and holes in it, so I am not comfortable with this idea at all. I ordered Gwen Spicer's book, Magnetic Mounting Systems for Museums & Cultural Institutions, but honestly, I have had it for over a year and have skimmed parts of it, but have not tackled this difficult reading yet. It's a lot!!
My biggest fear with the DCO method is the warping of the plexiglass. The frame she wants to use only has a quarter inch rabbet lip, as most frames do, and I worry about the plexiglass bowing and popping out because it is such a large piece. I would welcome any and all constructive criticism and suggestions, if any of you are willing to share your wisdom and expertise with me! (I'd love to explore the option of mounting with magnets. Has anyone tried this and do you have any suggestions as to how to go about it?)

 

[neilframer]

Hello all,

I've been trying to research this and am thinking a best solution to frame this very old, Civil war-era flag is to use Jim Miller's direct contact overlay method with polyester quilt batting beneath a fabric of the client's choice and then sandwiched in with plexiglass. The flag measures 35.5" x 57" and she would like a border around the outside, so I can do a 1.5" border and stay within the 40x60 oversized materials. This person has indicated that she cannot afford to spend more than $1,000 on this project, so Optium museum acrylic is not an option. I tried to explain to her the importance of archival preservation. I read some old posts here on the Grumble and saw suggestions for sewing a similar old flag to matting and another idea of sewing to a fabric covered window screening stretched onto a canvas stretcher bar. This flag is so fragile and has a lot of tears and holes in it, so I am not comfortable with this idea at all. I ordered Gwen Spicer's book, Magnetic Mounting Systems for Museums & Cultural Institutions, but honestly, I have had it for over a year and have skimmed parts of it, but have not tackled this difficult reading yet. It's a lot!!
My biggest fear with the DCO method is the warping of the plexiglass. The frame she wants to use only has a quarter inch rabbet lip, as most frames do, and I worry about the plexiglass bowing and popping out because it is such a large piece. I would welcome any and all constructive criticism and suggestions, if any of you are willing to share your wisdom and expertise with me! (I'd love to explore the option of mounting with magnets. Has anyone tried this and do you have any suggestions as to how to go about it?)

I did this over 200 year old- 13 star flag a few years ago.
44" x 74" without the float.
The flag could not be sewn, it was so fragile, so I did a DCO with Optium Museum acrylic.
The float was on linen wrapped Fome Cor.
The flag was large and we didn't have a problem with the Plexiglas warping or popping out.
It was an interesting flag as it wasn't the Betsy Ross design.

I think that this was over $2500. which is over your budget but the Optium was a big part of the price. (I know you mentioned that Optium was a no-go)
Regular plexi or even UV plexi would be a lot less.
Possibly you could add a fillet to widen the rabbet, but then that adds to the price.
Good luck with your project.

I tried to tell the customer to not frame it and just try to conserve it.
The customer wanted to frame the original and "the customer is always right"...

 

[wpfay]

Your client has unreal expectations about the costs.
Sometimes stepping away from the project will help to get them back to reality, but it will always protect you from bad decisions.
The preservation of that flag is not your issue, it is theirs. Let them claim it.

 

[neilframer]

Your client has unreal expectations about the costs.

Don't they all??
Well, many of them do......
It's part of my job to change their mindset.

 

[JFeig]

Bsoucy, you are only giving us the barest of information regarding this major project. None of us have any idea as to your experience level and a back story regarding the client,
At first glance, it appears that the client has no idea of the true costs of a proper preservation job. They also have no concept of the risk that you could be taking on if you do not properly handle this historical object. We also do not know if the client can actually afford a proper full conservation job vs the arbitrary budget that they gave you.

With that said, I would suggest that you gracefully decline the job based on a comment that should be conveyed to the client. "This is a job where the contents should be reviewed by a trained textile conservator." The risks are just too high for you and the contents to proceed with an inadequate job.

 

[Ylva]

I would not have the client pick the fabric, as client has no clue what is safe and what is not. You can't just pick out whatever at the fabric store (this is assuming that was the plan, or maybe I'm reading it wrong).

It needs a sturdy frame. It can be done with conservation clear plexiglass. This flag might need more support than just the plexiglass though and I would probably use crepeline for the direct contact overlay and raise the plexi away from the flag itself.
I couldn't do this in that $1000 budget.

 

[framah]

Yeah, the $1,000 budget gave me a good laugh!!

 

[Nikodeumus]

I'll add to the consensus, I would also suggest that setting an arbitrary budget may impact the ability to make material and framing method choices that will be appropriate for the long term safe display of an historically important object.

You will be spending time and purchasing materials to learn a technique you have no experience with.
It would be wise to practice these techniques on easily replaceable items of no value to a customer, and be well versed and comfortably confident you can perform these techniques on an irreplaceable historical object. THis practice will take time from finishing your other work, and expenses that will need to be covered.

Learning these special techniques and skills has value which should be reflected in what you charge.
I'd suggest working up rough estimates based on at least two methods that meet the high degree of care this items requires.
Wether that is DCO or magnet mount.

f you really want to do the project, be sure you are going to earn enough to make it worth all the time and materials it will cost you just to learn how to do this correctly. Practice, practice, practice.

When I have been presented with especially challenging project that I need to learn a new technique for, I give no deadline for finishing as I don't know how long it will take to fully learn a new technique.

 

[bsoucy]

Thanks so much for all of your very insightful replies. Apparently, this flag is one of two that her late grandfather owned and the one that is in better condition has been archivally framed and now owned by her aunt. Her grandfather was a collector of Civil war-era items. I will discuss all of the points that were brought up in this thread with her and figure out whether to decline the project, or make some decisions on how to proceed. If she is absolutely unwilling to go over budget, I may decline, or maybe I will suck up the loss and learn something new and valuable and consider it education costs. Re: the choice of fabric, I was planning to have her select from my Frank's fabrics samples, which I would assume are all archivally safe fabrics to use in a framing project? Stupid question, as I don't have lots of experience with items like these, how do I learn about fabrics that are ok to use vs. unsafe fabrics? Thank you all for your feedback. I appreciate all of you!

I did this over 200 year old- 13 star flag a few years ago.
44" x 74" without the float.
The flag could not be sewn, it was so fragile, so I did a DCO with Optium Museum acrylic.
The float was on linen wrapped Fome Cor.
The flag was large and we didn't have a problem with the Plexiglas warping or popping out.
It was an interesting flag as it wasn't the Betsy Ross design.

I think that this was over $2500. which is over your budget but the Optium was a big part of the price. (I know you mentioned that Optium was a no-go)
Regular plexi or even UV plexi would be a lot less.
Possibly you could add a fillet to widen the rabbet, but then that adds to the price.
Good luck with your project.
View attachment 45839View attachment 45840View attachment 45841
I tried to tell the customer to not frame it and just try to conserve it.
The customer wanted to frame the original and "the customer is always right"...

This looks amazing! Adding a fillet is a great idea.

 

[bsoucy]

I would not have the client pick the fabric, as client has no clue what is safe and what is not. You can't just pick out whatever at the fabric store (this is assuming that was the plan, or maybe I'm reading it wrong).

It needs a sturdy frame. It can be done with conservation clear plexiglass. This flag might need more support than just the plexiglass though and I would probably use crepeline for the direct contact overlay and raise the plexi away from the flag itself.
I couldn't do this in that $1000 budget.

Do you think there is any chance of the flag slipping due to gravity over time if only mounted with crepeline and no pressure from the plexiglass pressing against it? If I take this project on, I definitely don't want it coming back in the door with any issues! Nervous about this!

 

[wpfay]

Not all fabrics from Franks are archival. If you call Moises he can tell you which ones are. They will generally be 100% cotton with no sizing or dyes.
If they have sizing, they will need to be washed 3X to get it out before using.

If doing a DCO with UV acrylic, you will need at least 3/16" thick acrylic for added rigidity over the span of the piece.

With crepeline, you will be doing a lot of stitching in the perimeter and field. A fiberglass screen with fabric cover backing strainer would make this easier.

I would still consult with a textile conservator before making a decision.

I understand the appeal of learning by doing, and being willing to accept a lower pay grade because of the learning potential. Just be sure you aren't risking more than you are gaining.

Oh, and how many times will you expect to use this new-found knowledge? Check out my second tag line...

 

[Ylva]

Do you think there is any chance of the flag slipping due to gravity over time if only mounted with crepeline and no pressure from the plexiglass pressing against it? If I take this project on, I definitely don't want it coming back in the door with any issues! Nervous about this!

Not if you cover it completely with crepeline and pull it tight around the back

 

[JFeig]

One thing to remember is that the DCO that Jim Miller introducted to picture framers was intended for smaller, lighter weight, items.

One tried and true method used by many textile conservators is to use a shear fabric mesh(Crepeline) over the entire item that is tacked down to the backing in strategic places to ensure support all over the item. I do not thing a simple "tight stretch" will be sufficent support.

 

[Mary Beth van der Horst]

I like where wally was going with his last comment. I was gonna pop in and ask if anyone has thought of screenmounting, which is what he is suggesting.

 

[Ylva]

One thing to remember is that the DCO that Jim Miller introducted to picture framers was intended for smaller, lighter weight, items.

One tried and true method used by many textile conservators is to use a shear fabric mesh(Crepeline) over the entire item that is tacked down to the backing in strategic places to ensure support all over the item. I do not thing a simple "tight stretch" will be sufficent support.

I didn't mention that it would be just the stretch. Of course you have to tack it down for it to stay in place

 

[bsoucy]

Thank you all for your very helpful responses. I will probably pass on this project, but if we do it, I'll give an update. I appreciate all of the very helpful advice!

 

[Rick Hennen]

Be very careful when designing with any type of fabric in a frame package that requires archival materials. I have been purchasing linens, silks and cottons from mills all over the world for many years and very few mills have the capability to manufacturer a fabric that would, by framing standards, be considered archival. Especially considering the quantity of fabric that would be required to make it worth their time to offer the process. In addition to the acidic components within the various solutions used in the processing of fabrics (dyeing, bleaching mercerizing, retting etc) you must also consider the lignin content. At one point we had a Belgian linen mill send some of our linens to Italy where they had the ability to remove most of the lignin (the Belgian equivalent of our EPA would not allow them to do it in their country) but they no longer offer that service. When a mill would specify "Acid Free" they would be talking about a ph range of betweeh 6.5 and 7.5. You could do what was referred to as an "archival wash" which was washing the fabric several times in a specific quantity of distilled water and testing the ph of the water after each wash cycle. Not really 100% accurate but helpful. I once quoted a project to a conservator at some college who specified a polyester fabric for their archival project. Not because it was archival but because it was inert, unlike a natural fiber fabric which is always changing. Their assessment not mine.