wool needlework question

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Garnetta

Garnetta

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
May 31, 2004
Posts
225
Loc
Missouri
Is there any reason why you wouldn't use glass when framing a piece of wool needlework? It will be matted.

I did a search for an answer to this question in the archives, but I wasn't able to find anything. Hopefully this isn't a stupid question since I'm a relatively new framer. If it is a stupid question, please don't laugh too loud.

Thank you,

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Garnetta
 
That's not a stupid question

Make sure that the glass doesn't touch the fabric. You might want to double mat if the wool is thick, or add something like framespace. Good luck on your project.
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It's not a stupid question at all, especially since if you look hard enough you coul find and article that states that textiles must NEVER be framed behind glass and one that says just as surely that textiles must ALWAYS have glass.

My own inclination is similar to Framer Randy's. Yes use glass for protection from airborne pollutants but include plenty of airspace.

So far I have not read or heard anything that would indicate that this treatment is inappropriate for wool.
 
Glass provides protection from dirt and grime in the air, as well as UV protection when UV glass is used.
Also, the mats don't hold up as well when unprotected and will usually end up looking really dingy in a relatively short amount of time. Most clients of mine will usually ask for no glass on the basis that it will detract from the art, making the texture of the wool harder to see. After I explain to them all the protective benefits of the glass they will almost always opt to use it. We will use museum glass a lot on this type of work because the reduction in glare provides a clear view of the texture if they are really concerned.
 
In the "olden days" we were taught that needlework, especially wool needlepoint, should never be glazed, as yarn needs to breathe, like oil paintings. I never thought I would change my mind about that, but I have, especially here in Nevada where dust is our greatest commodity. But always with a deep spacer or no less than double-matted, and I'm with imaluma about the museum glass, as it's the least "visible" glass, as well as the UV protection.

If they still insist on no glass, I recommend that they vaccum it occasionally, with the hose end wrapped in a clean pantyhose foot, and never, ever touching the fabric.

I keep an unglazed needlwork piece of my mother's in the shop to show what can happen without glass over time. Not pretty. Nearly always convinces them to go with the glass. Showing them works much better than telling them, some think I'm just trying to sell glass. A picture (or the real thing) is worth...well, you know.
 
Originally posted by Val:
some think I'm just trying to sell glass.
Click to expand...
'cause we all know all the profit is in the glass

Seriously, keeping an unglazed piece is a great idea - I'm putting it on the list
 
Thank you so much! This is a piece done by a gentleman in his 80s and he was positive you shouldn't use glass with wool..even though he does want it matted. I told him the mats would quickly look grimy. He agreed that I would do some checking and let him know what I found out. So many many thanks to you all.

We are doing another piece of his that he's giving to his daughter and she insisted on museum glass, so I think with this information from the great Grumblers I'll be able to convince him to use the museum glass on the wool needlework.

I really love the idea of Val's of keeping an unglazed needlework piece for show. I think I'll keep half of my example piece covered so it really shows how bad the uncovered side looks.

You're the greatest!

Garnetta
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Ever remove glass from a needlwork piece that was directly on it and find the "ghost image" of the stitches on the glass itself? I keep a piece of that handy too, with a clean piece attached to it so it won't rub off. I call it the "Needlework Bacteria Sandwich".
I tell them that "stuff" they see is alive and eating their precious, time-consuming work under there, fed by the moisture caused by the greenhouse affect that happens with no air circulation that the mats and/or spacers offer! Hold it up to the light for them to see and you'll get "EEEWWW!" every time! Can't see that stuff until the glass is removed, and then it's too late. If that doesn't convince them nothing will! I gare-on-TEE!
 
Wool, is an animal product, and mites, silverfish, tar weavels, powder post beetles, moths, grubs, and verious other little buggies just love getting under the glass... When you can see them through the glass, they are done eating the wool.

Just a thought.
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And the "stuff" on your glass... is just "off-gass", which will still occur even with a 1" spacer... but it just fogs the glass as a uniform layer instead of with the patterns.

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Oh. Seems I was fibbed to all those years ago, when I was taught what the "stuff" was. Guess I oughta just keep my little mouth shut for awhile, eh, in case I'm passing on the incorrect information. Thanks for setting me straight.I'm beginning to wonder what else I've thought was correct all these years, and now finding out I was full of baloney. Scary. I feel old.
 
When I wanted to educate the "I've never used glass on stichery before" customers, I would engage them into a discussion on if/why they used a furnace filter or room air filters in their home. And then I asked them how often do they change the filters and what did they see...

Once they saw the parallel, over 90% of the the doubting thomas's opted for glass with mats or spacers. They "saw the light."

Can't get them all, but this analogy works great.
 
Val, I learned a lot from you on this question. And, you learned something, too. I think there is always a ton of information to learn about framing, and as materials and knowledge evolve we have to learn it all again.

I feel old when I forget what it was I learned only five minutes after I read it.

Cheers!
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You know, that actually bothered me all night! And you're right, Garnetta, times and information change, and we must change with them. Thanks for reminding me of that, I feel better this morning.

Today I can convince them with terms like off-gassing, and animal product, and I like Sue's furnace filter analogy. And I'll still keep Mom's beautiful, dirty x-stitch handy.

Can't wait till I can get to some classes and learn more about what's changed, and I'm sure more will be pointed out here, sometimes to my embarrassment.

Garnetta, I'm glad we both learned something. I was always the kid in school who raised her hand when no-one else would, with that "stupid" question" that everyone said after class "I'm glad you asked, because I was too embarrassed to". Small sacrifice, our egos. Ouch.
 
When I first started framing, I saw a crewel embroidery piece on a friends wall. There were several stitches that were about 1.5" in length. Some of them were sepearated and basically left with 2 thread ends no longer a stitch. She asked me what caused that and I had no idea at the time. I have since realized that it was wool yarn that was frequently used in crewel embroidery. The piece was did not have glass and my conclusion today is that it was now moth eaten wool yarn. Coming to that conclusion, I have always recommend glass, at least it protects from moths easily getting to it.

Baer, that being said, you have indicated that these little beasts can still get into a framing package.

Hugh, do you have any answers for this problem?
 
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
Wool, is an animal product, and mites, silverfish, tar weavels, powder post beetles, moths, grubs, and verious other little buggies just love getting under the glass... When you can see them through the glass, they are done eating the wool.

Just a thought.
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Click to expand...
Baer, I am quite certain that silverfish will dine only on plant-derived products like papers and cotton textiles. I don't know about all those buggies, but the biggest threat to protein based products like wool or silk will be carpet beetles and moths.
 
imaluma, stop and think.... is the iada cloth that the wool is stitched ot animal or plant....

[man I wish I could inject the Jeopardy jingle here.]

Times up.. did we guess cotton?

It is the bain of all stitcheries. Not just wool.

Val, don't ever feel "old" for learning new things. I keep feeling younger for all the things I have learned here... and yes I do. [Just don't tell Jim that...]

When I learn something new, I think of all the years ahead that I will get to use, expand-on, and pass on that knowledge. I makes me feel so young.

And now that your hip is doing good, Vegas in January is just a short drive down-state....

Last year some framers got rooms in the Hilton through Expedia for about $50/night....
 
Baer, I only felt old for a few minutes. Maybe more embarrassed than old, but I got over it, and I learned a lot more than just about wool off-gassing! If I ever stop learning, it's time to hang it all up and head for the old folks home. But that ain't happenin'!!

In January I will be recovering from a knee replacement, but I plan on going to Las Vegas anyway, if I have to use a dang wheelchair!! Wanna push?? Any other volunteers?
 
Val, if they are doing ortho, you'll be on a cane. If it's replacement..they will have you up and in a walker 4 hours after the surgery.

It's not until the END of January.... and just remember... there is that Limo ride.. :D

I thought so too Hugh.
 
Originally posted by Val:
In the "olden days" we were taught that needlework, especially wool needlepoint, should never be glazed, as yarn needs to breathe, like oil paintings..........
Click to expand...
I am sitting here staring at the front of my T-shirt (cotton, not wool) and .............. yes, I see it, .......... it is indeed breathing!!!



My next challenge will be to find a wool T-shirt and check THAT out for possible life!! :eek:
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Man, I just can't get enough of this place!!! :cool:

Framerguy
 
...yarn needs to breathe, like oil paintings

Ya, right. I can hardly concentrate around my house for all the huffing and puffing going on around the walls. And at night ... THEY SNORE.

Kit
 
Okay, you guys, go ahead and laugh about the breathing thing, and then call up Paul Frederick and laugh at him, because he's who taught me that! If HE said it's so, I'm stickin' to it!

(Paul also pronounces it fill-lay, not fill-let, and I still call it that too) Go on, I dare ya, laugh at our Framing Guru! (not!!) So there!


(p.s. I do admit that we pronounce it 'wreltney' sometimes, Paul, please forgive me)
 
And, just for the record, mine are wheezing along with me right now...allergy season.

And Baer, I was kidding about the wheelchair..just wanted to see if you'd volunteer! Never used one for the hips, and just this week I'm finally off the cane. YAY!! And yes, it's total knee replacement. Other one is ortho in a couple months.

I'll see you all in Vegas in January! Will there be needle-art framing classes then?? And Paul's birthday #93 I believe? will be then too.

Holy carp, I can't believe we're talking January already! (Come back Valorie, be here now, Val, be here now...)
 
#91.

what do you mean "talking January already" . . . I just booked September 2007!

January is already over but the screamin.
 
And the answer is...................? To glass or not to glass.............


My answer is glass the wool needleart just as you would glass any other needleart but take care to do it correctly! Common sense should tell you that an unprotected piece of fabric art displayed in the normal home will become saturated with airborn cooking oils and grease, dust, lint, pet dander, smoke residue, and all the other things that y'all were talking so positively about with the furnace filter example.

And I would also be careful about choosing one technique over another with any type of procedure or repair without first getting enough factual information to verify that the procedure or repair is indeed a correct one to use. This includes anything that I say here as well as any statements that have been made earlier and not verified.

This is still a forum to educate those who don't know how to do some part of the complicated steps in advanced custom framing as well as the basics and we all have a responsibility to offer only that information which we can verify. Not personal opinion, not some statement that sounds&nbspgood, and not because we think that we have answers to everything that is asked, but we need to help guide those who really don't know as much about some of these procedures as others more experienced.

If you noticed I said "My answer" and not "The answer" because many times there is no "The answer" but possibly a number of accepted procedures that will work adequately to get the job done. But no matter how you do the job, if it is done correctly and within the bounds of proper/accepted framing techniques, you should have minimized the potential for your customer having problems with the finished piece in the future. Assuming proper handling and correct hanging is utilized, the safety of the fabric art should be ensured for a reasonable amount of time.

Remember that no framing procedure is guaranteed forever. There should be periodic inspections of that frame package by the owner and any suspicious goings on behind the glass, any infestation of vermin, or holes in the frame or backing should be shown to a professional for an opinion and possible teardown and cleaning and/or repair.

Framerguy
 
Originally posted by Val:
Okay, you guys, go ahead and laugh about the breathing thing, and then call up Paul Frederick and laugh at him, because he's who taught me that! If HE said it's so, I'm stickin' to it!
Click to expand...
Paul Frederick's books are still on my shelf for reference. I have a great deal of respect for the man who brought framing education to so many practitioners. The test of time has proven that his advice was correct, at the time he gave it.

That said, a lot of what was once thought to be "best" has been revised over the years. To wit:

1. "Acid free" mats are now inferior
2. We glaze textiles and canvas art
3. We put solid backings on canvas art -- no more slots for "breathing".
4. We rig our wires to hang from two wall hooks, not one.
5. We separate glazing from the item framed by at least 1/8".
6. No more corrugated cardboard in the frame package.
7. Foam center boards are better & more acceptable than they were a decade ago.
8.
 
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