Will Micheals, Hobby Lobby, etc kill us all?

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I was poking around Micheals the other day and noticed they have rolled out a new plan-o-gram this year. I have to admitt, their ready made section is pretty good. (The sweat shop children are getting pretty good at there work.)
I know Micheals and the rest can't compete with the framing knowledge of most private shops, but at those prices, it's going to be hard to convince the average customer why our prices are almost twice the Micheals price. Archival Framing will always belong to the private shops, but these big box stores are determined to take everything else.
I even heard Micheals are going to begin opening frame shops outside of Micheals Crafts under a different name and go for the high end framing market. Be afraid, they own there own private distrubtion company called Artistry and buy moulding at distrubtion prices.


We all have to admitt to going for the price ourselves. Whens the last time you had your oil changed by a real mechanic or bought a television from a locally owned store? Never, we all go to Jiffy Lube and Best Buy for our products. We are just as guilty as the rest of the consumers so we can't cry too loudly, the only difference is when we buy a television or change our oil the product doesn't suffer for the savinings.
I used to work at Micheals about eight years ago when I first started framing. The first thing I was shown how to do was ring in orders on FulCalc. I was on the sales counter the second day of work. I have been into art all my life so I picked things up quick enough. The sad part was they teach everyone this way. There main goal is the sale, period. There is a entire central office of suits looking at numbers all day long and none of them could give a rats ass about conservation framing accept for the higher mark up.
They see custom framing the same way Wal-Mart sees bleach. How can we buy, ship, and price this item to sell the most and at the highest profit?
I closed my shop in Corpus Christi, Texas in 1999 because the sales and the depth of my pocket wasn't there. That same year, five other shops closed down. Sad but true. One of them was the only C.P.F. in town. What's really sad is that the biggest private shop in Corpus Chirsti has to sell Bennie Babies and collector cards on the side to keep the doors open even though he owns the building he's in.


Anyway, didn't mean to bring you down too much, just wanted some support from all of you about how to Kill the Big Boxes before they kill us all.


P.S. No lectures please, just GRUMBLES


Talk at you soon, Rick S.A.T.X.
 
Rick, I don't think it will happen. Their reputation for treating customers shabbily will limit most of their business to the bottom feeders, you know, the ones who don't care how they are treated or what they get, as long as it's cheap. Why would we try to compete with that?

My store is just a few miles from Tijuana, Mexico and Aaron Brothers and Michael's, yet I and a lot of other custom framers in San Diego keep getting business. The main reason for that is people just plain hate going to those places.

I agree, they have probably hurt us, but I think there is plenty of business out there for everyone.

In Tijuana you can get a gold crown installed in your mouth for $200.00, yet the dentists in San Diego stay busy, why is that?
A gold crown in San Diego starts at around $700.00

John
 
Rick,
This post got me going! I hear you pain and feel for you, Rick. You found water rising in the ship and I am on the same ship with you. Don’t get me wrong.
I don't give a rat's ass on those CPF credentials; they mean so little. But here is the true picture: in your town 8 framers went recently out of business, one of which was the only CPF in town. The others were what? Framers schooled in old days or guys with a "how to frame it" book in their pocket and a Grumbler cyber-family to ask for help? What is a framer that knew little more than his client but went into this business anyway? What is the guy who asks for a good one or two weeks framing school in order to become one of yours and thereafter be brotherly welcomed on board and supported by all? What is the framer that offers "do it your self" or " framed while you wait"? What's next? Framing "while you give us a hand"? These people are just opening doors and paving roads for the big boxes’ getting in.
I am aware there are exceptional framers around (some of whom answer questions in this forum) and many more excellent framers that are too busy or not interested in chatting or "better the industry". But I am also aware that low and mid range framing became such a big business, and individual framing shops so easy to duplicate, that for BB's is more than inviting to take over. It's just a matter of time and some more public "education". The sad part is that, in order to make a sell, we welcome every possible client (that's an euphemism for low framing) and help BBs promote themselves (similar low end items for a better price than the “custom framer across the street”). Don't fool yourself. Not the custom nor the archival framing approach and materials are going to stop the big boxes from getting even bigger. Nilsen, Bainbridge, Crescent or any molding maker in the world would be more than happy to do business with BB's and, if in the process there are casualties, too bad! Just think at this: nothing is more unique, more special, more diverse and more deserving than human beings. One would think that they couldn’t be but “custom” dressed and shoed. Wrong! Once you made them understand, accept, try and even like the blue jeans and the sneakers, there were little shoe makers and tailors could do except for closing or stepping way up. Hard to believe that people would resist better on framing grounds or that BBs will stop at your door. In my opinion, the only way to compete and survive in the future market is not going to please many that wish to stay small, bottom line ignorant, indulge their cats, dogs and be traditional spouses or parents back home.
Hope B. Carter, J. Goltz or J. Miller would bring some more light to this topic as I suspect they know more and better than we are ready to admit.

JBR, cheaper frames don't necessarily sell along with poor manners. So, don't assume BBs have no room to improve in this direction. A couple of months ago you were concerned with the energy cost in California although the energy cost per frame is just a dollar or less and you were not loosing clients to Con Edison or the like. Rick's concern is much too serious to be addressed with "don't worry, it won't happen, that's it, it's gonna stay there, you good guys will survive because the competition has no manners and your clients prefer smiles many times better over price."

[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 20, 2001).]
 
Add this to the mix. Just opened in this area a Wal-Mart Super Center complete with frame shop. The shop, not owned by WalMart but in leased space, is the first in the US and is part of a franchise.
 
Hey, wouldn't that be great to hear from Alex from Everett, WA, again, almost two years after he started that excellent thread?
Hope he's still in business. I am going to write him an Email.
Alex, if you are watching us, how did you cope with the two giants? What was your defence?
 
Rick, Please don't lump us all together. I don't shop Wall-Mart, Best Buy or Jiffy Lube. I frequent small businesses like myself as much as I can. I am going to assume it is people like myself who prefer to shop in a clean, quiet environment with helpful salespeople that keep business owners such as myself in business. There must be alot of us out there, because when I opened my store 17 years ago, I had a Lee Wards (now Michaels), plus a do-it-yourself shop, and one other framer all within 5 minutes of me. I have managed to establish and grow my business in spite of the competition. I hate to say it, but if you do shop Home Depot and the likes, you no different than the Michaels customer you are complaining about.
 
Oops, wrong thread.

[This message has been edited by Charles Lowry (edited March 21, 2001).]
 
Hi Pam,

You have a point there which is not to say that Rick didn't see the rising water into the boat. You are on the same boat too but, on a dryer deck.
I am convinced thatframers are sitting ducks for, despite new materials and tools, framing (as an art and trade) lost most of its bones and fiber and, with notable exceptions, framer is a guy who takes an order and, except for joining, mat, glass and fitting, has no control over his work's outcome. Even delivery time is depending on others. Then his design expression is pretty much limited to what molding and mat samples he's got. In this respect any decent framer within the US can blindly deliver the same frame as all framers have access to the same suppliers. And that's nothing special about it, quite the opposite.

As I see the problem, BBs are in full control over lower end ready-mades. But ready-mades are not always cheap and inexpensive and no framer can say that BBs won't ever try get into higher framing. Right now BBs have a poor image due to what and how they sell. But they can and will improve fast if ever committed to go up. Of course, the immediate individual defensive reflex would be to stay or seek higher grounds yourself. Others will argue that holding the ground, growing and be one step ahead of BBs would do the trick. I see merits to both strategies. Just don't stay the same or get smaller.

But Pam, I HAVE A NIGHTMARE SCENARIO FOR you all. What if BB decides to clean up its act and offer higher end ready-mades (they don't risk much going standard sizes, do they)? If I were them, I would start with mirror frames. You think that Roma or LJ would reject doing big business with BB? Then you are wrong. Price isn't even an issue here, for BB would get them made much less expensive than any framer can do and, once Real (or faked) LJ molding mirror frames sell across the street from your place, the thrill is gone, you know what I mean. Who thinks BB cannot offer archival materials with their frames is also wrong. The minute they'll decide to go a bit higher end, they will demand and get them from their frame suppliers, also much less expensive than any one of us can do. More over, where a large department of ready-mades is doing good, soon a custom frame op will follow, as art material stores all over the country may prove it full well.

Not their unrefined and poorly trained salespeople are preventing BBs from going straight up, but rather economic reasons like consolidating their lower market foot hold, competing with others at the same level, and the really much smaller appeal (size/return) of our market. But be sure that steam pressure is building up down there and, if you are not already in your sixties, you may witness big mutations in this field. It's dialectic and foreseeable. Why would custom framers survive any better than custom shoe makers or tailors had? A few will only. Cloths and shoes markets were much larger and rewarding ones and this is why they'd been taken first. But framing industry is ready to go down too, for it's already defenseless and pressing hard in dangerous directions like: poor technical heritage, standardization, fashion, cheap decorations (remember one inch square mirror frames made of scrap? Nothing that BBs cannot do as well). Sad is that framers have their major contribution to the "change of the industry climate" and those who went lower and lower would disappear first from the market. But that's of little consolation for those of us that are on the same boat but on a higher deck only.



[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 21, 2001).]
 
I'm with Pam on this one. Cornel has good points as well.

We are fortunate to be based in a 'Mayberry' like town, sorta like Cheers, where everybody knows your name. We stay pretty busy, and have reframed a lot of Michael's work. There are no less than 5 Michael's within 30 mins drive if us. Most of our customers are repeats, but we're getting a lot of new customers every day. They are fast becoming repeat customers.

We didn't give a lot of thought to the 'low end' or 'high end' of the business when we started out. We just wanted to frame pictures as best we could, and build our business. We have scouted-out Michael's and have not been impressed with their work. Nor have we been impressed with the reframes we get from their customers. We try and do a small-town job. That is to say, we try and do each piece to the absolute best of our ability. Our customers aren't nameless billfolds walking around. They are our friends, or very likely to become so. They're the ones who, after picking up their work, go home and dig up some old art or pix they have lying around and bring them back.

I would not want to be a frame shop and have a Michael's open in the mall next door. There are some customers who shop prices, but I don't believe they make up the majority of our customer base. As I said, we are lucky.

If Michael's, et al, start to stock high quality ready-mades, I'm sure we will feel it in our ready-made sales. They comprise only a small portion of our business now, although we are starting to stock more. We'll just have to wait and see, and bend accordingly.
 
Hi Charles,
Nice talking to a living being
smile.gif

We assume BBs are about low end stuff. What about Fortunoff? I am working on making Fortunoff go for high end frames more heavily and come into your area. Just kidding!!!
As a parenthesis, high end ready-mades within a BB is the end of more than custom framers' ready-mades business.
Cornel
 
Geez...Lots of doom & gloom going on here. Unfortunately, it may be justified for some of us -- but not for all of us.

Our industry is having a shake-out like we've never seen before. And here comes an economic slowdown. Ohmygawd.

In such a time of uncertainty, we need to take stock of our proven truths. Here's one: Any framer who hopes to survive on price competition is doomed. Small framers can not beat the Big Box prices.

Here's another: We little guys have some advantages the Big Boxes can't easily overcome. Customer service, selection, adaptability, superior quality, and low overhead are among the advantages that will save those of us who put them to work effectively.

A third truth: We have to pursuade consumers to value our advantages, even as the Big Boxes are working to pursuade consumers that price is all that matters. We lose if we allow them to make custom picture framing a price driven commodity. So, we must not concede that.

I recently read an interesting book titled "It's Not the Big that Eat the Small, It's the Fast that Eat the Slow." And that makes four truths today.

Be of cheerful spirit, my friends, and work smart. Pessimism is a slippery slope.
 
I agree with Pam, but with a caveat.I, too, like to shop the best merchant- not necessarily the small. Often, the small is the best. But not necessarily. I drive El Dorados. Primarily because I love the service. I'm sure at that level Lexus or Infiniti would equal, but I also buy domestic when smarter. Again, not exclusively. But I also get my shirts made. There is no better fit than a custom made shirt, and that's from a tailor that knows me. But they both are the best at what they do, for my money. I'll tel you another fact. It's hard to pass up a Lowe's or Home Depot. Because I think they do it best. I would love to go into my corner Ace Hardware, but it's just not the same.

My point? I don't think I'm a lot different than most in my expectations. And I think that my personal demographic is exactly the one each of you would like for a client. So, would your shop pass the same test that I apply to places that I shop. That is I want great service, great product and great prices, and not always in that order. And I will often settle for 2 out of 3, if the 2 are really great.

So when you shop others and you lament about how lousy service is anymore(and our trade is not exempt), re-examine your own magic three elements. And I would start with service. Iff you think your service is exemplary, it's time to seriously re-evaluate. Think no further than your last competetive shopping excursion and rate their service. Was it better than that found in your shop or worse. I'll promise I don't need a show of hands for that answer. But is it true?

This may be the last and best chance for successful survival against all the things mentioned above. But, not unless you are painfully honest with yourself. It's the one thing that no one can do better than you. But only if you truly buy into it, and then make it known to every customer that walks into your shop. The good news? It's entirely up to you to do it. The bad news? It's entirely up to you to do it
 
Just a quick note, one of the biggest retail chain stores in NZ has just (finally) been shut down. Although they were not framers it does show that these big stores with hugh product range will eventually run out of dollairo's.
 
As a fellow Texan, I have to defend Rick's point. There is so much space down here that there isn't the need or the inclination for the small, east coast style towns with all kinds of mom and pop shops; you don't know your neighbor, and you don't feel the need to, honestly. People down here are used to driving for miles and miles to get where they're going, and they LOVE big huge "discount" stores because real estate is so cheap that they're everywhere. I don't think I could find a little cute hardware store if I wanted to; they were eaten up a long time ago.

So it's not fair to dismiss his concerns with prideful boasts that you shop the smaller, locally-owned businesses, because there just aren't that many down here. The shopping "experience" down here is a little different than it is further north; I've been to Boston, New York, smaller towns on the outskirts of Maine, etc., and it's a completely different atmosphere. I applaud all of you who live in smaller towns and know the locals and support the nearby businesses in your region. But that kind of community is fast dying down here. It's not my fault or anyone else's, exactly; it's just the way things developed.

I do think a superior product and better service will eventually bring in the kind of clientele that all of us want, but the key word is EVENTUALLY. And it does concern me that most of the smaller, "elite" frame shops around here have been around for thirty years, thus establishing their clientele before the invasion of the Big Boxes....it might take me years to compete with their clientele, and I don't know that I have deep enough pockets for that.

So anyway, I just wanted to defend Rick's point, because it is an honest and valid one. BE AFRAID. *grin* God knows I am....

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I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
See, Audrey, that I was right? We agree in much more many situations than you might want to agree ... to agree.
wink.gif


On a grin side now, two yrs ago, Alex from Everett, WA, started a thread about this very topic. Mike (Tadporter) was so nice to let us know it and link to that old thread from his post above. Alex, a well articulated and upper end established framer up in WA, saw not one but two such BBs invading his territory and had asked a few questions that are relevant today, too.
Wanted to hear from him and sent him a E-mail. Well, I'm still in search and rescue mood but hope that we'll find him framing, two years later, is fading away. His Email address seems to be active and receiving mail. Maybe some older grumblers can impress upon him and get him talk to us?

[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 22, 2001).]
 
People, you really otta go read the thread Mike was mentioning above. What follows is an arrogant reply in there that makes me look like a grandpa who heartily wishes your best. Anyway, I guarantee you that that thread is more instructive and entertaining than our current topics. No kidding.


MAX
True Grumbler
Posts: 65
From: A breezy, balmy, acrid place in Florida
Registered: Jan 99
posted April 23, 1999 06:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ATTENTION INDEPENDENT FRAME SHOPS OF NORTH AMERICA: PREPARE TO MEET THY DOOM!
We are coming to get you. To penetrate your market and and shift the basis of market share from you to us. And we ain't exactly Little Bo Peep. We have very deep pockets. We are experienced in management, merchandising, and above all...MARKETING! We have subsidised overhead, minimum wage employees, and economies of scale that you can only dream of. We are fully computerized. We can do quick-fits and simple framing jobs in less than an hour while you shop the rest of our megalithic store. Our buyers are very skilled in beating up vendors on price - we ALWAYS get the super-secret discounts. We pay our bills in 90-120 days, and guess what?...no supplier dares to cut us off. When we run one of our monthly framing sales we can always count on at least 1000 orders in a three-day weekend. Yes 1000 orders. We do over 1.25 million dollars /year average in custom framing services alone, and even with deep discounting and consistent couponing and sale running we still manage gross margins of around 50%. We are now even beginning to carry UV glass, rag board, conservation materials and a select line of finished-corner frames. And guess what? If we screw up an order, well, we try to fix it or take care of it best we can, but hey, in the long run WHO CARES? The influx of new customers is growing like a Tsunami and those customers who are displeased with our framing services still don't hold that displeasure against our store in general, and yep, you guessed it, that's the real reason we do custom framing anyway....To get the customers into our store to buy the stuff we REALLY make killing on. We are now even beginning to purchase delivery/pickup vans to service our customers, and you know what?, we will CHARGE for that service and they will pay! Yes, my friends...we know whatwe are doing. Don't be fooled into thinking we will just go away...we have only just begun to learn the intracacies of your market.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!



__________________________________________________________________________________________
I picked up the above post as to lure you into reading an interesting thread only.



[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 22, 2001).]
 
Your point is/was well taken, Audrey. I agree completely that the BB's are a threat that looms on the horizon. At least on the horizon for Janet and I. We mention Michaels everyday, but, luckily, they haven't affected us yet. We're lucky to be where we are. We have Wal-marts and K-marts on every corner, too. There are some things that we go to Wal-mart for, but we try the small town places first.

I feel for anybody that feels heat from Michaels. Or any of the other big outfits. I'm sure we'll feel some heat from them eventually, but right now, we're OK.

Are you anywhere close to Blanket, Tx? I had some old friends from Blanket and can't locate them. Email me and let me know if it's in your neighborhood. Thanks
 
Audrey-There is no need to fear, unless you attempt to take them on. And don't worry about trying to compete for the 30yr old elite shops clients, either. Go after that juicy, middle of the road client that will be always available to anyone that does a great job, with superior service and great pricing. There is always room for a great provider; the bankruptcy courts are filled with those not able to provide. It's a simple rule of capitalism. Open your sights, develop a first rate business-plan and execute. A fellow Texan (I grew up in Texas, went to school at Texas and am involved with my partner in restaurants in Round Rock, Corpus, Cal-Allen and Cedar Park)I always remember the great words of Ross Perot who said something along the lines of "Business is simple: You've got to do just three things. You have to decide what you're going to do, You've got to decide how you're going to do it, and third, You've got to decide to do it" We all have the first two talked to death with all the answers. By the way, I seem to remember from an earlier post that you recently moved from New York? Didn't take long to become a Texan, did it?
 
Didn't mean to start such a conflict. I guess I didn't make my point clearly enough. I am not talking about BB's killing existing business'. A good reputation is hard to beat.
The future is not in existing shops, it is in new business'. I mean this in a long term basis and not as an attack on anyone. Every year, the big box stores make it hard to open a new store. Once you retire with tons of money, new stores will need to take over.
A new shop has a very small or no customer base and needs the "bottom feeders" to help them get going, the big boys know this and advertise every weekend to make sure that any person moving into town or unhappy with their present framer will come to them first. The BB's know they can't compete with existing quality frame shop.
The hardest part of business is getting people through the door. No matter how good you are or what your prices are, if customers don't know what you offer, the point is moot.
I read John story of starving for a burger and how he hadn't eaten in two days. After the point it is kind of funny, buy I'm sure John wasn't too happpy about it at the time. This kind of situation will only get worse. The waiting for years and years to somehow build a base client base to keep the lights on.


I heard they are going to make it harder to declare bankruptcy. This sounds logical on paper, but they have said nothing about closing corparations or making it illegal for C.E.O.s to bail on failed companies with a golden parachute with a cool half million a piece. What a shame, see you the driving range.
Each year, big business and the goverment are raising the anty on small business' starting out. How can a business live when big business' are blanketing the market and the goverment is making it easier for them by structuring the tax laws to be so obscure that you need a team of accountants and lawyers to figure it out.
I know it is possible to beat the BB's with hard work and tightening your belt to the lowest notch, it's just a shame to do it because of a entity who could care less about artwork.
It's one thing competeting with business that has been around awhile and were good at what they do and it's another to have to starve because a giant is around the corner and is paying 6.50 an hour and blowing out the store at %50 off custom moulding or %33 percent off the entire order.
Ask yourself how you would go about starting a new shop in a new town with no client base at all. With all you expertise, you would still be the new shop in a new town. Just for fun, what steps would you take to make it work and how will you keep the BB's at bay.
Just a thought, Rick S.A.T.X.

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If you don't take care of your tools, they won't take care of you.
 
To clarify for Bob's sake, I have NOT recently moved from New York; I have never lived outside of the state of Texas and I am very proud to be a fourth-generation Texan. I grew up in Corpus Christi--escaped to go to college at UT Austin--and then relocated here to San Antonio. (I hope never to go back to Corpus Christi; that is the most dead-end, backward city. LOL)

The reason I mentioned the east coast is because we took several vacations up there when I was a teenager; they are among my favorite memories.
smile.gif
I was struck by how different the lifestyle is up there than it is down here, and while both offer their unique charms, I do think that the Big Box is more of a threat down here than it is up there, for the simple reason that there is enough space down here for a BB on every corner.

And now I've lost my train of thought...LOL....anyway, Perot's wisdom aside, it will be awhile before I have the resources to open my own shop, and until then I am watching the market patterns and consumer buying patterns very closely, and what I have observed DOES worry me....

No, Charles, I don't know anyone from Blanket, TX, and in fact have never heard of it. LOL Sorry. There's a great many small towns in Texas, most of them on the edge of bigger towns--places like Seguin, Katy, Sugar Land, Missouri City, etc., that unless you've lived near them, you never realize are there.
smile.gif
I myself was born in Andrews, TX, and other than knowing it's somewhere in the middle of West TX, I've no idea where it is. LOL

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I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
Hey Bob--I am VERY familiar with the cities you mentioned, and I would love to know which restaurants you are involved in.
smile.gif
Having grown up in Corpus, I think I've eaten at every single restaurant there, and waitressed at half of them. LOL So I'd love to know if I've eaten at your restaurants.

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I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
Audrey-Profound apologies for accussing you incorrectly of being a Yankee. I was 13 before I realized that damn and Yankee were two different words. For the record, the restauarants are K-Bob's and Bubba's Icehouse. Next time you go to any of the towns I mentioned e-mail me and I'll hook you up with the best Chicken fried steaks for the money anywhere. Sorry for the confusion. I was really trying to say it doesn't take long to become even a naturalized Texan. By the way, keep it a secret, but I'm in Arizona on a scouting mission to see if Texas wants to buy the place. I'm the advance party.
Hook 'em
 
Bob!

How funny...my parents used to consider driving out to K-Bob's a special treat; my mother was nuts about the salad bar. (It's not that far from where we lived, but in Corpus a twenty-five minute drive sounds like an effort. LOL) We were right next to Oso Bay, so driving out to Five Points was only for "special occasions."

I've known waitstaff from Bubba's Icehouse, but I never did make it in; it wasn't open very long before we moved up here. Or at least, I don't remember it being there very long; it's in the same plaza as Baskin Robbins and Sun Harvest, right? LOL

God, it sounds funny to talk to someone on the Grumble about my old stomping grounds. Congratulations on your success, Bob! Good for you.

And for the record, my mother was the only child in her family who was born right outside the Texas border; she has often expressed a desire for one of those bumper stickers that say, "I wasn't born in Texas, but I got here as fast as I could."

biggrin.gif


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I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
FrameHarbor, It is an interesting scenerio you have provided me with. What you are describing is a situation which has not happened yet, but may. Who knows what I would do if something like what you described happens? It is a wait-and-see situation I would not address until I have to, if I ever have to. I still maintain that the Michaels of the world are only going to attract a certain type of customer, not the entire population, no matter what they offer. Yesterday I finished a project involving 28 fishing lures, flies, and spinners. I have a project to frame a sword and it's sheath, a dagger to mount and frame, an old college sweater to do, and yesterday a man brought in his boy scout memorabelia to frame. Two days ago a customer picked up her three French matted drawings. I doubt that ANY BB is going to be able to afford to have a framer on staff who has the ability and creativity to do these kind of projects. My ideas, design, and color sense are what sets me apart from the discounters. That is what my customers pay me for. I am sure Michaels affects me because I do not get many of the low-end framing jobs. My work consists of middle-to-upper end jobs, and I get enough of those to keep me plenty busy.
 
Audrey-Without getting way off, My daddy's favorite saying I remember while sitting on his knee back at the ranch in West Texas. He said "Son, you never want to ask anybody where they are from. If they're from Texas, they'll tell you soon enough. And, if they're not, well, you don't want to embarrass 'em" Now back oto our regularly scheduled grumble. What was it,anyway?
 
Originally posted by PAMELA DESIMONE,CPF:
"...What you are describing is a situation which has not happened yet, but may...It is a wait-and-see situation I would not address until I have to, if I ever have to."

We have reason to be optimistic about the future, but we need to realize that our sleepy little industry is undergoing great change, and that our way of doing business is under attack.

The Big Boxes are not waiting-and-seeing. They're taking every segment of our market that we will give up to them. What will stop (or slow) their advance if we small shops are passive?

"...I still maintain that the Michaels of the world are only going to attract a certain type of customer, not the entire population, no matter what they offer."

The problem is that *our* potential customers, bombarded with Big Box advertising and not knowing our side of the story, are buying into the Big Box marketing strategy, which says the best frame is the cheapest frame. Consumers who don't understand/perceive/value the advantages of our products and services will become their "certain type of customer" instead of our "certain type of customer."

"...My work consists of middle-to-upper end jobs, and I get enough of those to keep me plenty busy."

Neighborhood pharmacies used to be "plenty busy"; they saw CVS and waited. Small hardware stores used to thrive; they saw Home Depot and waited. Small, independent clothing stores and furniture stores saw The Limited and Heilig Myers coming, and they waited. They were "plenty busy", too.

Will our industry go the way those industries did?

Small, independent frame shops that wait-and-see will be beaten one-by-one; it's only a matter of time. But if we prepare and implement sound business strategies, then we can at least maintain what little share of the Consumer Dollar we enjoy today.

My personal belief is that we can kill the beast. But we have to realize that there's a fight going on, and we have to fight back. With a cheerful and optimistic spirit, of course.
 
I'm with you, Pam. My business savvy isn't sufficient to personally keep Michael's out of Clayton, NC. We rely on our service, attention to customers needs, and the ability and willingness to take on almost any job that comes thru the door.

Our town has a thriving 'Mom and Pop' drugstore, 2 or 3 hardware stores, etc. All in spite of Home Depot, Lowes, CVS, Eckerds, et al in the neighborhood. As I said before, there are 5 Michael's within 30 minutes of us, and we still stay busy.

This is not to say that I don't recognize a threat, but it hasn't touched us yet. When we feel the heat, we'll do something about it. If there's some framers consortium that can keep the BB's away, I'd be happy to hear about it.
 
Pam,

As much as I like to rock the sleeping, self indulging framers out there, there is only that much I can do in order to become the most hated fellow in the Grumbler. I am growing tired of that much collective resistance. Unfortunately, the world of framing I would fight for has long since become extinct in America. Personally, as you may guess it, I am not concerned with big or small boxes going low or high end, getting or not in bed with LJs, for my framing art is entirely self sustainable. But I saw a pattern of weakness and dissolution within our trade and thought to warn you, with no much hope, for I know full well that each framer would rather lie to himself that everything is just fine, or talk and do nothing until it's too late, than do anything significant in order to resist longer than his retirement plan provides for.
My closest framer relatives lost their battle with mass molding manufacturers, one hundred years ago, for they were enough arrogant to think that their clients would never fall for faked gold, cheaper, less expressive, machine made and finished molding that was further cut and joined by less than artist designers like they were. Guess what. Mass molding manufacturers are still around and my superb frame masters are history. Today, their mutants are even less prepared to fight and defend their trade with such equally vain strategic arguments as nicer manners, unparalleled design abilities, culture, fine eye, ear etc. With more than nice manners and design abilities on their side, old framers had been defeated by the then standard cheap, low end framing. The rest is history ...

Jim,

I think you are right. One couldn't say it better. But, unfortunately, I don't believe time and evolution ca be reversed. Some framers will enjoy their current way of doing business longer than others, as they are located farther from industry main stream but, this is not to say everything is quiet around.

[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 23, 2001).]
 
Frame Harbor--

I think you are one of the few who really understood what Rick was trying to say--which is not to get into an argument about who shops where, or to say who is better at what than who, but to point out that where you and I shop doesn't really matter, because we ourselves neither begin nor end buying trends.

I just think an honest concern about the future of quality framing is in order; you make an excellent point about other custom businesses whose trades were perverted, and then overtaken by, mass-manufacturing. We can thank Henry Ford for that. LOL

Think about it from my perspective; if I were to open a shop tomorrow, the lower end customers are already shopping at Michael's, and the higher-end customers are happily accustomed to their own frame shops...I'm sure a lot of you have a lot of wealthy customers who have been with you for years. And I'm sure you want to retire some day. Don't we all?
smile.gif
And who exactly is going to take over your job, and where are they now? Did they give up years ago to "low-end, get 'em out the door" framing just to keep the lights on, or did they fold entirely, waiting for the customers who never got around to leaving their CURRENT high-end frame shops?

The only people who will come into a new shop are the curious and the bargain-hunters. The latter will be frightened away by the prices, and the former have no proof that you are any better than their current framer. Eventually, the latter may be curious enough to give you some business; and if you do it right, they'll probably come back. But how long can you wait? And how deep a wallet does this take, and where is the money supposed to come from?

I'm not arguing with anybody here; I applaud all of you on the Grumble who have quality shops and do fabulous work; I learn from you every day. I'm just saying that the field isn't exactly wide open, and that it's foolhardy to foresee a future in framing that resembles the present. The better that ready-mades get, the more Michaels that open, the more people become accustomed to whatever they find at the BB's, the harder it is for a brand new frame shop to find a level ground where they can both be PROUD of what they're doing, and still make the rent.

In Corpus, where I am from, the oldest frame shop in the entire city is now selling Beanie Babies. Five frame shops shut down within one year; when I moved, there wasn't a single CPF in the city. And every Sunday there are flyers from Michael's, who is apparently doing just fine.

So I'm concerned. LOL I'm not looking for solutions from you guys--I'm just voicing the view from my end.
frown.gif


------------------
I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
I am posting my answer to a paralelle thread (sharing wholesale info with your customer) because I think it's relevant to this topic too. Hope it's not going to be hard to blend it into this one.
__________________________________

Guys, here too, I wouldn't offer any data, for different reasons though, and I wouldn't feel obliged to share those reasons with that caller either.

But let's look at this thread from a slightly different perspective for a moment. Say that one such old man asks a physician where he can buy a stethoscope and a scalper from.

Well, I can see that physician being surprised or amused by such a question, I can see him not answer, but never ever fear that the old man is likely to open a clinic and become a doctor himself just because has got a scalper, a stethoscope and a few more things like these. At their turn, a lawyer, an engineer, a musician wouldn't think or fear such perspective either.
Conclusion: as mentally normal people that we all are, we cannot fear but things or projections of something that we know to be at least very probable if not straight real. That makes me believe that some of you have seen many successful self-made framers around which explains why our industry is so populous, in one hand and, on the other, why so many framers feel vulnerable to any type of competition, from the lonely wanna be framer included. What remains of our frame design stronghold that, allegedly, along with good manners will always make the difference and tilt the balance in custom framers' favor?
You people must be much more concerned with the future than you wanna admit it and, deep down, agree that nowadays custom framing is more of a life stile than a science or an elevated trade. You wanna keep it that way, well, then fear on.
_______________________________________

Audrey,

I appreciate your honest concerns. You are right, future businesses and today young businesspeople are most likely to carry that battle. Unfortunately, no union or framers' association will ever be able to stop free competition from happening, which means resistence must be built strong within every individual framer.
 
Interesting post. Do I consider myself paranoid because as a business person I am not interested in sharing my business secrets, sources and practices with strangers for free any more than I would give away custom framing?? May I suggest another point of view, that simply, my business secrets are my assets and I am not interested in giving them away.

I guess I try never to start a sentence with "you people", because I have found this is a very confrontational way to state a position. In addition, I stay away from labels whether they are psychology terms or jokes. I DO NOT KNOW ANYONE who likes to be labeled. I DO NOT KNOW ANYONE who likes the "inference" of a label. May I ask what is the point of trying to label and define the psychology of anyone in this forum?

------------------
Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
Yes, ArtLady, you may ask. And I will answer like this: there are many good framers that know what they are doing and fear little from potential competitors if any at all. They will survive as well as those who still have time and do strive to reinvent themselves and clime among the best in their regions. Those framers are not concerned with my taking on the others who just sought and found refuge in this trade.
I don't know directly any one of you. I am addressing a statistically true reality, not one or the other of the active framers in this forum. But whoever fits the profile will know it. The others will also understand that I cannot possibly talk about them, and therefore take no offense.
Labels aren't always such a distress, are they? What about CPF, or PPFA member stickers in the window? Just bad labels are enoying. Right? What I find difficult to understand is how poor framing industry self defense system really is. With no credentials required, everybody may penetrate the system and become a legitimate framer, bring down the trade's good image and reputation and invite others in for, at this perceived level of complexity, it pays to become just another framer than to keep a job. The framers' world is melting down from within itself and surrenders to whomever takes on it. Long before big boxes got more discriminate, framers got less and less so and, from frame makers, they became frame deliverers (somebody else is making the molding, putting the finish and chopping the molding; in a foreseeable future, mats and glass will be delivered upon order and the chop artists will join the frames too). Remember those guys that were seeking good frame designers to link them over the net into a virtual framing shop? They are getting ready to take away custom framers last monopoly and the only one they are glad to keep to themselves: designing. Not that they all have a call for this art, but because it's the easiest part of all. Let's see what ever will happen to Marc Lizer's intelligent and professionally challenging thread on designing frames for his three drawings. Designing being, allegedly, our best asset, with so many frame designers around, one should be optimistic that a reward winning design will pop up.
 
Cornel, your point is well-taken. There are plenty of threads where CPF, PPFA are discussed. I do not have a CPF, but I DO know something about them.

I had a First Class FCC license. This was back in the microwave days with the Phone Co. There were many who worked under the licensee's licenses, and they were as good, sometimes better than those who were licensed. An FCC ticket shows that you have learned the necessary info to pass the test.

I have read on the other threads, that the CPF is the same thing. I would imagine that one could pass the CPF test, and not have any idea how to match mat and frame to a customers art. I have the highest respect for CPF's. I imagine it is a difficult test to pass, and I salute all that have strived in that direction.

I know this is somewhat off the thread, but I just can't sit around and worry about the BB's shutting me down. I am too busy framing work that is backed up. If, and when one comes to town, we'll deal with it then.
 
Charles,
Where I came from there was no such thing like CPF and I am not a believer in CPF's virtues either. But that does not mean I don't regret the lack of real framing schools and authorities that would train, test and certify new professionals in this field, everybody else, by implication, being just amateurs and hobbyists. The high end or low end framing distinction would then be obvious, regardless of suppliers' brand names or in-house pricing policy. The way things are today, having enough money to open and function in an affluent neighborhood makes one a high end framer regardless of his real stock. And the other way around. Moreover, framing finds itself in an unflattering company when compared with the few other businesses that can open without social or government concern for any professional accreditation: one makes money, then he must be a framer. By the same standards, a news stand and a book store and a library are the low, mid and high end representations of the same business since all handle letters printed on paper. This is why I say that framing industry is melting and dissolving itself without even being under attack from BBs or anybody else.
I wonder if the same clinical aspects are visible in Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand.
In the meantime, every framer would frame as much and as long as he can. By the way, maybe I should start a new thread, but here is a good question:
I heard of mam'n dad's framing shop and I suspect that this is just an old saying. How many of you are carrying the family's tradition being a second (or a third) framer generation? How many of you have their children seriously involved in family's framing business?
Cornel

[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 25, 2001).]
 
As you said to someone else, 'We agree on more than I think'.

'Mom and Pop', as I have always understood it, apply to a family, maybe only one generation, business, as opposed to a large chain-type operation. For instance, a drug store owned and operated by Mr. and Mrs. Lowry, as opposed to a CVS Pharmacy.

I mentioned this before, but we have such a drug store in my town. Their customers can call them on Sunday, at night, whenever, if their is a pressing need. We also have a Doctor who, if you are his patient, and need him, will open his house to you at 2:00am. He will even call the family-pharmacist for you so when you leave his house, they will meet you at the drug store. (Are we lucky or what?? Told you it was like living in Mayberry!) That is what I mean by providing a service the BB's will/can not do. So far, thankfully, we have had no 2am calls for framing...

You bring up what could be a very interesting thread...It would be interesting to see how many framers are first-generation, and how many are carring on a family tradition. I know there is at least one framer on the Grumble who is second generation.

You have a way of making us think, and look at ourselves, Cornel. Thanks.
 
Charles,
You, keeper, you make me blush. Speaking of stirring people with interesting questions, I was impressed with now long time quiet Keep Framing's ability to knock framers off their socks and pick their brains.
Sounds like you live in a much nicer place than I do. Don't give us the name of that place for New Yorkers might head onto it and, at the end of their visit, your place will look more like Brooklyn or Bronx than you wished to.
 
Hi grumblers,

Not to let this thread fade away in small tete a tete chats, I am reminding you two points of interest:

1. We still know nothing and most of us don't even care about our old mate, Alex, who may have very well become a casualty in framers fight with the big boxes

2. Not even the top of the framing world is as tranquil as many of you are. HOW MANY EVER KNEW AND HOW DID THEY FILTER THE INFORMATION THAT Abe Munn HAS A PARALLEL OPERATION THAT PRODUCES...yes, you're right! POLYURETHANE CAST ANTIQUE REPRODUCTION HAND GILDED AND FINISHED READY-MADES FOR MUCH LESS THAN THEIR FAMOUS COUNTERPARTS MADE BY THE SAME?
Abe Munn is not willing to let BBs grab the high end ready-mades market and is not waiting to see if BBs will ever take that road first in order to react afterwards. More over, I can tell you that Munn took this parallel road back in 1992/93. And Abe Munn is Abe Munn, it does not buy LJ's molding and does not fear somebody else is going to sell same molding like theirs.
Abe Munn is not Mom and pop shop but their family distinctive, self-sustainable business that's handed down from father to his son.
I hate resin and cast frames more than anything but, I give Abe Munn a thumb up for their clever reading of the market's trends and their commitment to be a forceful player throughout many Munn generations to come.



[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 25, 2001).]
 
Don't know much about the areas in which most of you are located, but one misconception repleated in above posts is that BBs such as Michaels are cheap. My experience of stores such as Michaels is that the opposite is true. They price their product, especially moulding, very high. By so doing they are then able to offer the big discounts. As we discussed in the old thread on this subject, it is all about perception and not necessarily reality. BBs have a huge advertising budget to convey the perception that they are inexpensive. People buy into this perception looking only at the percentage off rather than asking the real question: "How does the price before the discount compare with the regular price at other shops?" What they are killing the small shop with is not framing, not lower prices, but the advertising of a false perception.
 
Woody is exactly right, Micheals and the rest are quite expesive before their 50 off coupon. This is called coraling the customers. People spend money at busy places. People go to busy bars, restuarants, etc. By Blowing out store every other weekend, people all come in at the same time and see how many other people are framing there. The get a "great bargin" and the assurance that they have made the right decision by the amount of people waiting in line next to them.
How can you compete with a company that spends more money on their advertisement than the average frame shop brings in total sales.


"Don't come to me with problems, offer me solutions" I don't who originally said that.


The grumble alone has close to a 1000 members alone. Maybe we should rise up and fight back against the beast that stands to kill use all.
Maybe we should start an group of frame shops and galleries working together to counter the BB's advertisement. We could pool are money together and have ads ran in national publications with all the participating shops and galleries on the bottom of the page. A full page ad has alot more impact than a small 2" by 2" in the back. We might even consider having a professionally produced commercials (air and television) that all participating could use locally. The only way to beat the beast is by awarness of the skill of the trade. You have to admit that most of your high-end customers frame with you because of they trust you in your skills and knowledge.
Maybe we shouldn't out bid them but rather educate the mass of the risks of going the cheap way with family photos and signed and numbered pieces of artwork.
Alone we all will suffer eventually, but together we have a chance to fight back.

We might even want to build a web site on framing and link our shops to the main site.

I'm learning web design and would be willing build a site for everyone if the need is there. With all the knowledgable men and women on this site, we might be able to build a pretty nice and informative site. Knowledge is power.


Just a thought.
 
May I suggest that we buy Gay Goltz's book and figure out where our marketing money should be spent.

May I suggest that we join Jay's FramerSelect and benefit by the knowledge and experience of a very successful framer entrepreneur. If anyone can make it work he can.

May I suggest that we execute some strategic marketing to define who were are and how we will react to the current and long term market conditions.

May I suggest that we stop and think that the attrition and low wages of the BB's can not possibly consistently produce quality long term.

May I suggest that we search the archives and read the former posts on this topic.



------------------
Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
Hi All,

Check out the "ponytail in a shadowbox" topic. I have asked a BB employee a few questions which could be relavent to this topic.

------------------
Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
Rick,

I like your ideas. Let's develop them.

---Mike
 
Interesting thread...

The Art & Framing Council was founded to promote custom picture framing on a national level. AFC has produced colorful, professional brochures to tout our advantages. They even put together a standardized, adaptable radio commercial on cassette. They're giving them away -- practically begging framers to ask for them.

PPFA was founded specifically for the purpose of bringing framers together to serve our common causes. The association has produced ad slicks, generic mailers, promotional posters, and all kinds of ideas to help framers grow.

Framer Select is trying to do exactly what Rick describes, if I'm understanding correctly, with a web site and national advertising.

So, why is AFC unknown to most framers? Why is PPFA continuing to struggle for members? And why are we not *all* waiting in long lines to join Framer Select?

Hmmmm?

Time and again we've seen framers sit back and wait for "them" to take care of all these things for us. Meanwhile, "they" who take the initiative are lucky to get potentially-great-for-us programs off the ground.

Here's the harsh reality, folks: Until framers are willing to invest hard-earned time and money to advance these causes, they simply won't happen.

Who wants to take a list of volunteers? Not everyone at once, please...
 
We have two raised hands already. Thanks for the support TadPorter and Jim could not be more right.
I'm going back to school for web design and interet databasing so I would be willing to help on the web side.
I opened a shop a couple of years back and lost alot of money in the process. I still own all the equipment but I'm not sure if I will open a shop again.
I fear being 45 years old and still hoping on a dream.
My fiancee, has gotten into framing in a major way and wants to open a shop with me helping when I can, but I'm not sure I'm willing to start-up alone agian. I want to retire someday.
Anyway, I prefer to learn with real exapmles rather than fictional examples so I'd be willing to build site for all of us to use. I'm writing a site where local artists, photographers, students, etc can order their mats and readymades online and have them delivered or picked up later. Nielson has a similar page on their site, but I don't know how well it is doing.
If this works out well, I will shareware this site to anyone who wants it. I'll keep you posted on how things are going on the site.
Any tips or thougts on the site will be helpful, so e-mail me with your thoughts.
Even if I never re-open and leave framing for good, I still don't want this trade to fall to BB's. I love and respect art too much to see it on the shelf next to clorox and paper towels.

------------------
If you don't take care of your tools, they won't take care of you.
 
"I fear being 45 years old and still hoping on a dream"

I was, too, Rick. I retired last June after 30 yrs with BellSouth. I was scared to death, and cast about for some direction. It's daunting to think of going on a job interview at 50 yrs old!!

I had always dreamed of going to work with Janet in our frame shop. When the opportunity presented itself, as a result of work-to-be-done, I jumped on it with both feet. I've loved it ever since, and haven't looked back.

That is not thread-relevant, but I wanted to share my 'mid-life' story. Go for it, whatever your dream is. At 45~50, we deserve to be able to do what makes us happy. If we can make some money while we're at it, all the better.

------------------
May all your corners join without sanding
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rick: Maybe we should start an group of frame shops and galleries working together to counter the BB's advertisement. We could pool are money together and have ads ran in national publications with all the participating shops and galleries on the bottom of the page. A full page ad has alot more impact than a small 2" by 2" in the back. We might even consider having a professionally produced commercials (air and television) that all participating could use locally................................
...................We might even want to build a web site on framing and link our shops to the main site.......................................................... Knowledge is power.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Rick,

As James Miller has pointed out......this "tool" is in place and is being currently developed by Jay Goltz. He's put together a handful of key and driven people to make this thing run and has been signing up shops for about a year. He plans on "launching" this website in April.

By association he is directing FramerSelect to do EXACTLY the three things you mentioned in your quote....no more, no less. He has his retail background, business savy and perspective behind this idea. I believe it to be a realistic concept.

Check out: FramerSelect

Don't re-invent the wheel......take that time and energy and go open a shop with your fiancee!

John
------------------
(FramerSelect Frame Shop)
The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
www.theframeworkshop.com
Appleton, Wisconsin
jerserwi@aol.com
--------------------

[This message has been edited by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF (edited March 31, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Miller: Time and again we've seen framers sit back and wait for "them" to take care of all these things for us. Meanwhile, "they" who take the initiative are lucky to get potentially-great-for-us programs off the ground.................................
.......................................
Here's the harsh reality, folks: Until framers are willing to invest hard-earned time and money to advance these causes, they simply won't happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim,

Right on Target!......We all know that as individual shop owners, that we have some strengths that the Big Boxes don't possess........they know it too! But right now in the framing industry, the growth has been in Big Boxes, and Chain Home Decor type stores. The traditional "Custom Frame Shop" is not diminishing in numbers.....but we're stagnant. Those who monitor industry growth have illustrated these changes.

As some of you pointed out, small hardware stores still exist with substance in many parts of the country despite the competition from larger chains. I still patronize our local Ace Hardware store because it's convenient, I get a good price, and great service, despite the fact that we have two Home Depots, two Menards and a Fleet Farm within a 6 minute drive.

But what did Ace do to aide in their own survival? - That's the question.......They associated. The Ace and True Value associations gave them buying power on key items, advertising clout and name recognition.

We, as custom picture framers, don't need all of these things....but association can certainly provide us a great deal........what are we talking about here....a couple hundred bucks a year for a national association PPFA? Most of us have wasted more than 10 times that on some "Mickey Mouse" advertising promotion that we bought into. What is FramerSelect asking...$120.00/month. That's nothing for national promotion. I can certainly afford the few dollars a month that the AFC collects on the bottom of my invoices, but this is not enough to really generate strong marketing.....but I continue to let them use my support dollars because they provide something positive!

Jim, that is why I support these organizations.......they do provide and have the potential to provide OUR industry with the tools to make us viable!

John
------------------------------------
Proud member of the PPFA
Member of FramerSelect
Contributor to The Art & Framing Council
The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
Appleton, Wisconsin
-------------------------------------

[This message has been edited by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF (edited March 31, 2001).]
 
I have posted this message once before in another thread but I believe the message is as relevant today as it was before. I hope nobody minds.

At United Mfrs. Supplies, Inc. we support the small frame shop, over 40,000 of them and growing. Our experience has been that the big guys are slow to pay and require special handling. We do not sell to Michaels stores or the other discount giants listed in the previous postings.
It seems to me that perhaps the small framers are worrying a lot about something that will have a short life span. Here on Long Island in New York we had several Corners locations open for business a short time ago. All are now out of business except one. And as we can see by the stock value of Michaels, things are not going well and the future is not looking very positive.
I believe the average shopper is smart enough to see a bogus discount. Customers who care for the art they are framing will always go to the custom frame shop that really offers true value for the dollar. By value I mean quality in design, fit and finish.
Someone posted that framing industry suppliers give special hidden discounts to the large stores. United posts its prices for all in the industry to see and we do not have a special price for the big guys. We are always available for advice to start-up frame shops and will do anything reasonable to support our customers. What I do not understand is that the small framers continue to support the large supplier who is supplying the leviathans and we all know who that is.
Home Depot and their ilk may well be able to sell lumber, food, or paper towels, but I do not believe that the big-box concept will work for custom framing. It is my opinion that the custom framing business is not the place for the big guys and they are doomed to fail. We have always supported and will continue to support the small shop owner and I am sure that if you do not run, but stand and fight, the small frame shop will be the last one standing.



------------------
Peter Ackerman, President
United Mfrs. Supplies, Inc.
80 Gordon Drive
Syosset, NY 11791
Toll Free Phone (800) 645-7260
Fax (516) 496-7968
 
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