Why "The Grumble"

[D_Derbonne]

"...look at the name of this forum, its called THE GRUMBLE. Grumbling is what people do when they are upset with someone or something.

I thought since this subject has been brought to our attention more than once it might be good to look at it a little closer.

I first visited TG to get information about different framing techniques.
As I stayed I learned more about framing, business, computers and also found a place for a little social interaction.
And yes, I've launched my own complaints a few times.

I don't always participate in some of the more spirited discussions but I think they are part of what makes this place unique.

I thought there were some valid points on Jerry Ervin's thread. He was upset and he posted.

Was that the proper thing to do?
Maybe not, but it is certainly in the spirit of this forum and most of what ensued was thought provoking.


We should all try to take the high road here and in life but life just isn't that simple.

I'm glad to have people here that stir the pot. If everything that was posted here was purely informational it wouldn't be such an interesting place to visit.

 

[MarkG1]

Checking out the way some people reply on the Grumble and then how they are on another forum (HH) is like the difference between Church and a tavern.

Nothing wrong with Church, but the tavern atmosphere is allot less stuffy and laid back. Sometimes a bit rowdy but that's OK if you like that sort of thing.

I enjoy the Grumble and get allot of useful information out of it. H.H. is full of very good info, but as of yet, I haven’t felt comfortable enough to post there.

 

[Ron Eggers]

Mark, your tavern and church analogy is a pretty good one, but I hope you don't think you'll be struck down by lightning if you post on HH.

Rowdiness on The Grumble is expected, but if someone starts busting the place up, the cops will show up.

(Actually, the bartenders all have big hammers under the counter. Where IS Less, anyway?)

 

[wpfay]

Deb,
I've tried a number of substitutions for "grumble" and they all sound like SNL parodies of PBS talk shows.
The Picture Framers Colloquy
The Framing Forum
The Picture Framers Round Table

The Grumble does indicate that certain amount of irreverence that PBS and NPR strive for so heavily in their promotions, but never seem to achieve in reality. There is a certain challege to the name that might be off-putting to some, but those that get past that point bring color and life to the forum.
The first requirement would then seem to be a sense of humor.

 

[Less]

20 ounces of coffee and two Advil

Youdontneedgraemlinsformeronoldboy
iseebobhasbeenveryhelpfulwithhisresearchlately
thewholefloristanalogyisveryinterestingacceptthat
idontbelievethereareanyformalbigboxflouristsout
thereiguessmuchofthatbusinesshasbeenabsorbed
bybigboxgrocierstoresinmuchthesamewayasfurniture
andcraftstoreshavebuiltinframingdepartmentsi
believemytownsmostsuccessfulindependentfloristisnotftdiwouldsayitboilsdowntotheowners
driveandpassionforthebusinessiwaswatchingacnn
businessshowaboutfranchisesandtheowneroftheblimpieconpanysaidoverandoveragainbasedonhisun iqueoerspectivethatyoucansetupthreestoresinthe
samelocationandtwowillfailandonewillbeverysuccess
fulitistheownerofthebusinessthatmakesthedifferencehealsosaidthatweshouldfocusmoreonwh atwearedoingthanonourcompetitionthewholebranding
theindependentisinterestingalthoughanyonecan
becomeppfatheframerselectmodelmayworkbutinmy
opiniontheywouldbemosteffectiveiftheyadverti sedontvasdoesfdt

ithinkifeelbetternowohshitihavetogetgoing

[ 11-06-2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]

 

[Barb Pelton]

Well put.

 

[Mitch]

Does any one remember Ben Readings "grumbles". I am glad he hasn't returned. In fact I think he was banned.

 

[Bob Carter]

Less-What I found intriguing was that FTD was started by a couple of small (really small) florists in Iowa at about the same time that PPFA was.

You know they mirrored our situation closely at inception, yet 25 years later, they are what they are and we are what we are.

I love a good success story and this was as good an example as I could come up with paralleled our situation.

And this frankenthread is why the G is what it is. You open the dad-gummed doors and you never know who might walk in. It doesn't say much for focus, but it has diversity and craziness in spades.

I think we can learn from success as well as failure. Success is just so much more fun

[ 11-06-2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Bob Carter ]

 

[Dancinbaer]

Hey Less!!
Was all that easy to type WITHOUT hitting the space bar? Ooorrrr, did you go back and remove the spaces?

Just curious.....

 

[David Waldmann]

Originally posted by Bob Carter:
Less-What I found intriguing was that FTD was started by a couple of small (really small) florists in Iowa at about the same time that PPFA was.

You know they mirrored our situation closely at inception, yet 25 years later, they are what they are and we are what we are.

No doubt there is something to that, but I think there is a fundamental difference in the primary purpose of the organizations. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I don't know why I bother to say that here ), but the PPFA is a resource (from their web site) "designed to help cut costs and boost bottom-line profits", whereas the FTD is more of a branding/franchise type association. And it's not just that the purposes are different, I think that the nature of the businesses are enough different that there is a reason for that. For instance, how often do you buy flowers for yourself?

Somehow I just don't have a burning desire to send a framing job to my Aunt Sally in Phoenix....

(BTW, the FTD was formed in 1910 the PPFA was formed in 1971, per their web sites)

 

[stud d]

Personally I am offended that less is trying to steal my style by screwing up his typeing. Hey I got it down real good so dont compete with me.

i like taverns...went to one in atlanta and met some folks there once that scared me, dont know if i will ever recover.

and let us not stir the pot too much or "M"'s legal department will come on here and try to get us.

stir stir stir the pot...d

 

[Ron Eggers]

Originally posted by Bob Carter:
Less-What I found intriguing was that FTD was started by a couple of small (really small) florists . . .

Bob, what I found intriguing is that you could actually read that thread and understand that Less was talking about FTD.

The only thing I could get from it is that Less did not ONCE refer to himself in the third-person (except in his signature.)

I was so proud of the little guy that I couldn't make any sense out of the first sentence, which, unfortunately, was the entire post.

 

[D_Derbonne]

Originally posted by David N Waldmann:

...whereas the FTD is more of a branding/franchise type association. And it's not just that the purposes are different, I think that the nature of the businesses are enough different that there is a reason for that. For instance, how often do you buy flowers for yourself?

I think that Framer Select is trying to provide a service similar to FTD.
Not exactly, but similar.
A way to set up referrals to framers across the country. Maybe most folks don't send framing as gifts but some do it.

I have certain customers that give framed art as gifts on a regular basis.
I only wish there were more. Maybe that's a subject to be addressed in a newsletter.

How many people buy flowers for themselves?
Me for one. Due to my budget, or lack of budget I don't indulge very often but I do indulge from time to time.

 

[D_Derbonne]

Originally posted by wpfay:
The Picture Framers Colloquy
The Framing Forum
The Picture Framers Round Table

How the heck did you find these other forums Wally?
I tried a google search for the first and last and came up with nothing related to a forum.

 

[AWG]

Yeah, David, you're right in that FTD and PPFA have different purposes. When I think of buying flowers I also automatically look for a FTD logo.
Don't know why, I just do. I think most people buy flowers about as often as they buy art or have a picture framed.

While PPFA's primary purpose is to be a "resource" it could it not easily be developed into more of an FTD-type thing? I don't know how that would work but a simple way would be to GET INVOLVED in PPFA and promote it and its programs. Maybe PPFA, industry suppliers and other supporters could sponsor LJ-style
consumer-awareness ads in consumer magazines to promote your "the PPFA framers in our town?"

Whaddya think? Bob???

Tony

 

[Emibub]

Mark's comparison between the tavern and the church was right on. I read HH daily but I don't participate much because I sense someone will go "shhh". We can be just as reverent here but there is more of a sense of a community and I like the interaction. If it was just a post and read I would rarely visit.

As to what is acceptable, who knows? It is amazing where some of the threads lead. JRB said something very interesting on another thread, can't remember which one. He said "Just let it live it's own life".(Paraphrasing)That was such a well thought out statement. This forum just like life will evolve on it's own and it should be allowed to do so. Of course there have to be boundaries but in this type of format personalities come out and that is just life.

I consider this to be an invaluable resource.

 

[Bob Carter]

If the website says it, I'm sure it's correct. The reference was from memory.

Leave it to the Grumblers to miss the point.

The FTD comparative was used simply because they have done so much in branding their logo and driving business to their members.

I guess that isn't important to some of us. It sure is to me.

The FTD folks have "created" buying days where we are compelled to use their services then direct consumers to their members for the sale. The fact that their membership was as fragemented and small as ours, I thought was a slam dunk. My cursory research was to find a comparative trade association that did what I think ours could do. It was part of my mission when I participated in Long Range Planning at PMA last spring. I know that they didn't ask me to develop any thoughts on cost-cutting or bottom line boosting. They did charge me with the task of developing some vehicle that might make it more appealing to current/new members. I thought a referral mechanism would make me happy

One thing I do remember about the research was the majority of business was same locale based business (In town business as opposed to Aunt Sally in Arizona) and that it was primarily fee-based, commission driven and that it was so successful that the brand is now publicly traded.

Other than that, I'm sure we can find a much better example of how a trade association can benefit it's membership by actually creating sales.

I used to be a member of FS and admire Jay's vision. I can't speak for it's failure or success, but I do know they never reached anywhere near the critical mass requirement (speaks volumes aout our industry). There were a few great single successes and good for them. We never received even a sniff from a client.

Maybe a Merlin Olsen-type personality is needed, but that costs major bucks. Jay is a smart guy, but I don't suspect he is all that altruistic.

AFC has attempted to drive some business, but we are back to that critical mass thing again.

So what makes a bunch of florists so much more visionary than a bunch of framers?

[ 11-06-2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Bob Carter ]

 

[Emibub]

Oh yeah, forgot to add......I think it would be a kick to create another forum, something similar to SNL Dan Ackroyd and Jan Curtin "Point/Counterpoint". Anybody in a disagreement could have a shouting match one on one. It would be a hoot. I can just hear Dan Ackroyd saying "Jane you ignorant slut".......

 

[Emibub]

Oops, sorry Bob, here I am goofing off in the middle of a serious converstaion.....another example of how the G works and the swings in the conversation, not a bad thing, just ironic.

 

[BUDDY]

Hey Bob, do you remember an administrator of the PPFA named Rex Boynton?Either way do you know how he came to be the PPFA head man? WELL! If memory serves me correctly he came from Tellaflorist.And many of the concepts that lead to the creation of the AFC may well have come from that back ground.
The point is just having a good concept isn't enough. Not even if you have a head start on the logistics.
The key to this and any thing like it is PARTICIPATION. And not just some but major particupation.The reasons the concept wasn't kept strictly in the PPFA was lack of members and then when the AFC branched out on it's own,and incompassed ALL willing framers(members and Non alike) it still didn't get the numbers it needed.
So how will this concept be made to work ? What will make it different?It's a great idea but the implimentation is the problem.I'm not sure but isn't Jay Goltz's Framer select sort of the same concept ?If it is is it getting the numbers needed?
BUDDY

 

[Bob Carter]

Hi Buddy-I didn't know Rex, but you are correct about his background. I agree, this entire issue is one of critical mass.

So, what makes a bunch of ma and pa florists able to do it when we seem to struggle mightily?

I sure don't want to imply that I have an answer, but I sure was hopeful that with a powerfully adept player like PMA (and they are real pros)that there might be a way to drive biz to our stores (a la FTD). Wouldn't you think it would be such an obvious benefit to all manufacturers (you listening, David?)that if my business went up, theirs does by osmosis? Wouldn't you think they would drive this type of endeavor? Wouldn't you think that more than Larson would see this as a worthwhile effort to have their marketing staffs tackle this with a flourish?

I guess not

One major advantage in our favor, however, is that we have such a powerful medium on the G (the thread, if I remember)and we just have to be smarter than a bunch of dad-gummed flower pickers. (Don't you know they feel the same way about picture framers)

 

[JFeig]

And whatever happened to the pitch by the "Art & Framing Council" to give our industry more public visibility? Isn't there still surcharges on invoices (1/2 of 1%)from some vendors? What has that done for us?

 

[BUDDY]

I didn't mean to imply that you ,Bob, didn't have the answer nor that I did. What I did mean to say is that previous efforts to attempt the same thing that the "flower pickers" made work failed,even with the same information and some of the same administrators. What we seem to fail at is a unified effort from all FRAMEWRS ( Be they PPFA and/or non members).
This is the same problem we seem to face in all efforts in this industry. We just can't seem to understand that as diverse as we may be ,as different as our likes and opinions are, we are all in the same industry .
Why we even choose up sides when searching the net for information. The problem isn't a concept nor an administrator,it is our inability to work together as the "flower pickers" do.
I was told by Robert DeCastro, when he was still in the biz,"A riseing tide floats all the boats" when he was trying to give an analogy as to why AFC should work for PPFA members and Non. The problem as I see it is most Framers would rather sail their ship in the open sea away from all the competition and not be part of some armada of shops.Or at least it has seemed that way until now from most things I have seen.Why even when we do ban together ,as we have here, we still seperate ourselves from "The Other Guys" who are just not like us.I wonder if all the "flower pickers" think the other "flower pickers" are picking different flowers?The old adage as I understand it is "There is strenght in numbers" but we keep splitting ourselves into small factions ( No matter how big) instaed of uniting under one common goal.We start with part of the formula and quickly splinter it into small cliques.
BUDDY
Forgive me ,I slipped into my controversial mode again.I'll be quiet now and listen to the more positive explanations of how this will work.

[ 11-06-2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]

 

[David Waldmann]

My point is that, just because florists and framers have a couple of similarities in their typical business structure doesn't necessarily mean that the same strategies will work for both. The products are as different as night and oranges, so the entire marketing and distribution channels may be different.

Here is what I see as the similarities to the florists and framers. Branding works for both - florists have FTD and framers have BBs. You have to admit, BBs seem to work for framing. No, I'm not talking about it working for you (although many independants will say that the BB movement has helped them individually), I'm talking about the Industry.

FTD works for the Product, (think Coke), while the BB works for the Service (think Midas).

Now, before you get out the flame throwers, I'm not saying that the BB is "better" - it's just perceived as better by Joe Public. And as we all know, perception is reality in the eye of the beholder. Also, I have a vested interest in the independant frame shop, as my company is not now, nor do I ever want it to be, big enough to supply the BBs, nor to a point where we have to sell on Price (I'm thinking of simplifying our next price list - "If you have to ask....").

Originally posted by Bob Carter:
Wouldn't you think it would be such an obvious benefit to all manufacturers (you listening, David?)that if my business went up, theirs does by osmosis? Wouldn't you think they would drive this type of endeavor?

I am listening, and when I see it as an advantage I will do what I can. We are a very small player. In fact, many of our customers are bigger than we are - at least the successful ones. I considered becoming a Framer Select Vendor, but couldn't justify the current cost - for someone like Larson it's petty cash, but it's almost as much as our current total annual advertising budget. I do see that to be successful there needs to be both supplier and retailer participation, but going back to the FTD parallel - were the growers an integral part of the success, and if so, in what manner?

 

[John Ranes II CPF GCF]

Originally posted by BUDDY:
.........I'm not sure but isn't Jay Goltz's Framer select sort of the same concept ?If it is is it getting the numbers needed?
BUDDY

Buddy, It is similar, and you can see the current membership listed for any state by going to their website..... FramerSelect

Only two listed currently for Louisianna.....come in and join us Buddy!

I believe the numbers have diminished slightly from a high about 18 months ago. I know a good number of great shops that are members and see a good number of great shops that should be part of the group.

FramerSelect still has a great deal more potential than A&FC simply because of the revenue collected. I'm sure that even FTD collects more than 1/2 of 1% to keep it's program going

.

John

 

[Cliff Wilson]

Framers and Florists … as most of you know, I have only been in business 1 year (mid October). When I decided to get out of “high tech” and own my own business, I wasn’t focused on a particular business at all. I talked to many friends/relatives/acquaintances and (yes) some framers. I talked to business brokers and franchise representatives. Food, Services (financial planning, Midas, etc), and merchandisers were things I considered. There are a number of reasons I am here doing what I am doing, but that’s a tale for a different time.

I did talk to some Florists during my investigation and as part of some networking and advertising I have been doing since I opened. Admittedly my sample set is small, but some interesting (to me) observations … no matter how much the florist is into the design of the center piece, they still refer to themselves as being in the flower BUSINESS. They talk about merchandizing and selling. MOST framers (I KNOW NOT ALL, don’t jump on me), or certainly a large percentage, talk about FRAMING and the CRAFT of framing. They seem to think of themselves as Artists NOT business people. A lot actually like the persona that has. The stereotypical, temper mental ARTIST has appeal.

I really didn’t see this in other industries. I suspect, until the “artists” are a much smaller percentage of the whole (happening too fast already) we won’t see a critical mass of business people. (I know there are exceptions!)

As for the FTD notion for framing (maybe FramerSelect), I just haven’t been convinced the ROI is equal to or better than quality investments in my own programs, radio, print, direct mail. As David pointed out, framing just doesn’t seem to have sufficient “remote” appeal. Unlike Flowers that are ephemeral (So an ugly bouquet dies soon anyway, and it’s the thought that counts), framing is intended to last J and a bad “fit” for the end recipient is almost worse than nothing. (You know you how you hate to hang that picture Aunt Mary sent you!)