why not inflate the price of uv glass?

framanista

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Posts
202
Loc
Northeast US
My boss likes to sell museum glass, and he plans to increase the cost of conservation clear glass so that people will think that it costs a lot just to get UV protection. The problem is that customers may shop around, and if they notice the high price for c.c., they may never come back. Any other problems you can think of that might sway my boss?
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I just want to sell the customer what they want at fair price.
 
Customer do shop around, not all of em, but some of em. It does not matter, in the great scheme of things, what your boss sets his prices at. There will always be someone doing it for less, and somebody else charging more.

Your boss will keep the customers who appreciate his quality work and lose a few of his customers who are more interested in price over quality.

To take one small facet of all his charges and single it out is just silly. Your boss had the courage to go into business and take the risks, let him make his own decisions. Guy has to have some fun, doesn't he?

John
 
I think your last line says it all.
I think Bob would recommend shopping around yourself to see what the market is charging for these kinds of glass. Then you'll have an idea of what is reasonable and expected. I would be very fair on pricing CC, which you will sell more often. Then your overall pricing will be perceived as fair. Put Museum glass on a couple of items in the showroom and maybe some signage explaining its benefits (not just features, but benefits to the customer). When you quote the price for it, within the context of the overall framing price, you can empathize and say yes, it is pricy but it is a good value for the benefits it provides. If it's out of their range, you'll probably sell at least the CC glass.
:cool: Rick
 
I don’t understand the concept of out pricing one item to sell another.

Is the risk of just totally looking like a fool worth the extra $18 you gouge out of the customer? It’s gouging, if it were not he wouldn’t be artificially skyrocketing the price of CC. Why doesn’t the customer get to decide what they want with all things being priced fairly?

Heck it seems like to me that he ought to sell all glass for $24,000/lite and museum for $1,000/lite. That makes about as much sense. He isn’t far away from that anyway.

Like JRB said, “Let him do what he wants.” But if your selling I think that you absolutely believe in what your selling. I personally think CC if a gimmick waste of money. I think museum is a really great product. I think that companies price these things properly. The customer should be able to draw the same conclusions on his or her own.

This sounds like a silly idea but I doubt it will make or break em.
 
You're right John. He should do what ever he wants. I’ll try to think of shop issues as being a matter of how much fun the boss gets out of it.



Its just that I believe that conservation glass really does protect art, and I don’t want my customer buying regular glass, thinking they can't afford uv protection for their beloved watercolor or what have you. Some folks are on a budget and I’d hate to have their art fade away for no good reason.

And as Jay says its nice to believe in what youre selling. Up until now I think our products have been good and fairly priced.
 
The other side of this equation is, that it IS your boss's business, he does get to decide.

I agree, customers should not be gouged for any product, but what is gouging? Rick has it right, some comparison shopping would be in order. Your boss's prices could just very well be considerably below what others in your area charge.

I think it is cool that you take enough interest to even bring this up on The Grumble. I know one thing for sure, your boss knows how to hire the right people.

John
 
This might be a good thread upon which to ask probably my dumbest question yet: Could someone please tell me what is so all-fired great about museum glass?????

I have sold it before - but I really don't understand its alleged "qualities" - the ones that make is so much "better" and the ones that make it so much more "expensive."

It is about the same UV blocking capability as CC, isn't it??? All it has to recommend it is the "alleged" non-reflective capability, which, although my eyesight is poor, I don't see that much difference. And what I do see, especially on anything with a white mat, is a VERY ANNOYING purplish cast to everything museum glass covers.

Please - somebody - help me out here! Tell me honestly what is so darned wonderful about museum glass. I really don't "get it." (Plus I sell CC ALL THE TIME!!!)
 
Aw shucks John, thank you

Another thing to consider: if he wants me to butt out of it, why did he bring it with me? He could just change it in lifesaver and then inform me of it in a boss like manner. Instead he told me that the wants to change it, without telling me that I should do it, and without doing it himself. It’s like that with everything around here. I’ve worked here so long that I don’t know if that’s how normal people act.
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Framar, with cc vs. museum, I see a huge difference in the amount of glare, and so do our customers. Do you have the Tru Vu sales display with the two yellow tassels?
 
A couple of thoughts for what they are worth;

If you have left your pricing on Museum Glass exactly what is was last year, try this spin.

There has been about a 30% reduction in the box price and there is now in place a $30 rebate per box. Soooo, here's what this ol' retailer is doing

Try runing the dadgummed stuff on sale. Everyone (and I mean everyone) loves a sale. At a net of around $40/lite for a 24x36 (it used to be around $60, didn't it?), think of the great promotional ideas. Imagine screaming that for this superior product that you used to sell for $200 a lite, it's now at 40% (Wow, what a sale)now ONLY $120. You will make about the same margin and probably sell a few more(which is exactly why they lowered th eprice and offered the rebate-to sell more). And, Rick, this might one of those rare moments when Market Price is not that critical. (Specialty items should be priced as high as possible). Look at your own numbers and make it work. It just might work for the right client. It does for me because I am mailing in another two box rebate coupon.

Now, framar, what's so darned wonderful about this stuff? It ain't everyday I get to sell a lite of glass for $120. The truth is the stuff is a little like Thomas Kinkade art. Those that love it don't seem to be hard to sell up. I know you don't get it, but some folks just don't.

For us, take the money and run.

Once we get beyond the price problem (and that problem is usually more with us)the consumers that do buy it almost have an elitist view of it. The promotional aspect just seems to be the "tipping point" needed.

In fairness, it probaly only represents a point or two of our glass business. But it does make a $200 order into a $300 order.

To me, that's pretty darned wonderful
 
So, Bob - that's why it is so wonderful - cause it sells for more??? I am getting this Emperor's New Clothes kind of feeling about it now. Aren't we supposed to sell a more expensive product because it is BETTER???

I guess I will never be very good at making "the big bucks" because I can't sell anything that I don't believe in! Sigh.....
 
Framanista, if you are in a small shop, just you and your "boss", then yes, that is normal behavior.

When it's down to just two people working together everyday, it's almost like being married. You think out loud, you share thoughts, etc. Some stuff is serious, some isn't.

Everyone needs somebody to bounce their ideas off of, they need feedback. Just part of being human.

John
 
Mar:

1) Stop selling white mats.
and
2) Go look at your leather mat again. The reason you see it so clearly (and this is subjective here, you'll understand better in June and even clearer in July)
is because it has Museum glass....

That, is the ONLY thing better.

and as Kirsten Ling taught me: "After you have paid $350 for your frame and mats; wouldn't you really want to spend the extra $100 and be able to SEE your art?"
That little girl/lady sells the heck out of Museum glass... and it ain't to an elitist clientle in a little Oregon backwater college town. She just makes cents. (pun intended).
It's got me selling more.

Another point.. the smallest lite is 24x36... so when your talking to someone doing two pictures that are smaller than 18x24 . . . offer to split the sheet and therefore the museum glass is only $55 per instead of $110 as appossed to two sheets of CC @$35 each...
When they come back because you saved them money, what kind of glass do you think they will want...?
 
So, Baer - is it the cataracts that are making me see purple in museum glass??? Maybe John can answer this one??? I see it in just about every color mat except black. In white (and I don't know why, most of the mats I sell are white - watercolor society town, I guess) the purplish glow is just more pronounced...

So you're saying money is the main reason museum glass is better? More money for me???

The level of UV protection is the same as in CC?? Or am I horribly wrong here also???
 
Interesting to see this - I was repricing museum glass this weekend after taking Goltz's class on pricing in LV. At our education festival last weekend, we had Dennis Tilly of Dakota Framing Specialties, Inc/Expressions Gallery teaching a class on pricing and profitability. Two different perspectives on pricing, and slightly different pricing results. I did, however, decide to price museum glass up more than other kinds of glass because it takes longer to handle it and it has more flaws. - at least it does for me.

Yes, Framar, as I understand it, the UV protection is the same as CC. Museum glass is less reflective than CC, and the light transmission is higher. I also notice that the color is slightly off with museum glass, just as with most other glasses. And I still find that in my store, there is not one iota of difference in the ability to slow fading between any glass I use - they all fade at the same rate. Baer gave me his sample fading experiment last weekend, and he gets the same results I find.

We did learn this weekend that museum glass will develop a white film when it is used with certain kinds of fabric matboard, such as suedes, from the formaldehyde that is outgassed from the board - yes, conservation quality suede board. The instructor gave us a long, detailed explanation about why this happens. The good news is that when those pictures come back to you because the customer notices the odd whitish film on her expensive glass, you can open the picture up, wash it off, and refit. And you can keep doing this again and again and again, I guess.

Which is another reason to increase the cost of the glass in my mind, and to be sure to talk to Baer about buying fabric from his distributor to see if you can get around the white film problem!

This happened with crystal view years ago, and even though I put spacers on the glass over certain fabric matboards, it still developed this filmy look over time.
 
Mar -
Since we started using the shadowbox display from Tru-view showing the difference between CC & museum glass, we have had customers requesting it. We price it out both ways, some will go for it others may not. I think it's good to offer different options & choices to our clients, otherwise we all would be selling a black moulding w/ a white mat.
 
So,Framar, you don't like it. Fine-Don't sell it. But,Framar, do you have to like everything you sell? I mean, a lot of the art we sell will never be in my house. So,Framar, does that make good business sense?

It doesn't matter what I like, it matters what the consumer likes. And, if the consumer likes it they will pay more for it than other products that only meet the "need" test.

But, it will be hard for them to like it if you come off so negatively. And, I'll bet that it shows easily.

Take your most expensive moulding. Now, substitute the word "high end moulding" for "museum glass". It would be tough to sell anything high end that way.
Again, just because you don't like it or think it isn't worth it doesn't make it so.

In our shops, it is a once in awhile sale. And when a client shows no interest in it, we move on.

And, Terry, while it is always wise to factor things like time and waste into a selling price, never forget that the correct price is what the consumer is willing to pay. Specialty items carry a premium way above regular items.

I can only speak from experience, but those clients that are fans of Museum Glass are a little less "price sensitive" than most. But, they do love a sale and that is why I recommend using the recent price adjustment and rebate to a promotional advantage.

I remember someone in Vegas giving a class about Turning a Buying Advantage into a Selling Advantage. Is this what he was talking about?
 
Originally posted by Framar:
...I guess I will never be very good at making "the big bucks" because I can't sell anything that I don't believe in! Sigh.....
That's an honest approach, Framar. We sell what we like best. It's human nature, and it's OK.

The nature of the lighting has a lot to do with how Museum Glass works. With bright or direct lighting, Museum Glass subdues the reflections better than other types of glass, and the reflections have a green cast. That's better than clear or non-glare glass, but if you have seen Museum Glass only in bright or direct lighting, then you haven't seen it at its best.

When lighting is indirect and reflections are less conspicuous, then Museum Glass is almost invisible. This kind of lighting is a more typical display condition -- most homes don't have as many light sources, reflections, or brightness as a frame shop/gallery.

In framing three-dimensional objects, the advantage of Museum Glass is much more obvious. The TruVue tassle display is a perfect example.

Museum Glass and Conservation Clear have the same UV-filtering capability.
 
Mar,
To illustrate what Jim said: The Cleveland Museum of Art recently totally revamped its armor court. There are now HUGE display cases housing life-size model horses in armor. These display cases are made entirely of museum glass and the effect is nothing short of magical. Every gleam, glimmer and incised detail on the armor is exquisitely and dramatically lit. It's worth a trip here just to see it!

Anyway, there are two important points to be made about museum glass here. These two things are what make museum glass worth every penny to me and have enabled me to sell plenty of it.

The first concerns the purplish/greenish reflections. If the framed art is properly lit, those reflections will not be visible. If the CMA can light whole cases made of the stuff and not have one reflection in it, then there is a way to do it. I don't know how to do it, but some of my customers have someone who does. You can't just smack a lamp under it and expect it to look as good as a piece in the museum.

The second point was the kicker to me. Terry mentioned it: "Over 97% light transmission to artwork." Once you sit down and think about this, then you'll see why this glass is amazing. Better yet, do up your own shop samples. Find something with lovely subtle detail. I have several half'n'half samples framed; one is a hand carved tray in the shape of a face that I got for peanuts at a Pier One. It is black and its surface shows lots of variations in texture and grain. It is mounted on dirty white linen. The half with museum glass shows every bump and ridge and grain whorl, where the side with the regular glass is a mess of reflections. Simply put (and this is what I tell customers,) since the light is not busy bouncing off the surface of the glass in the form of reflections, MORE LIGHT GETS TO THE ART and you will see color, texture, line more vividly. I sell a crap pile of this to my needlework ladies. I have an intricate crossstitch framed here as a half'n'half sample as well. The difference between the sides is again dramatic. I can see the lustre of the thread, the roughness of the linen and the subtle variations in color in the overdyed thread used through the MG side.

Try some samples and see if you can see what I mean. Darker objects work nicely, look for three-dimensional pieces, and lots of subtle detail. My half'n'half samples are displayed right over my sales table and face the huge front windows and never fail to get comments. If those who notice them today don't buy it today, you can bet they will remember it for the next piece they bring in.

Framanista,
I'm sorry to contribute to the hijacking of your thread! But just a question to ponder: how do you (or anyone) determine what a 'good' or 'fair' or 'high' price is? What information are you basing your opinion on? In my shop, CC glass takes longer to cut and work with and has more flaws, yet I mark it up FAR LESS than regular glass. Sounds like CC glass is the better deal, yes? I always strongly recommend this glass to customers because I feel it is the standard anymore. It does not cost that much more. If Joann ETC is selling it as their default glass, you can bet that most customers will be EXPECTING that it will be used. Just my thoughts on the matter.

edie the cheerleaderforMG goddess
 
Well, well, well. This has been most educational - turns out museum glass seems to have some esthetic value, after all - not just another cash-grab! LOL!

Perhaps it's my cataracts, perhaps it's the overhead fluorescents in my shop - but I do believe I'll have to make up some test samples for my shop and make more of an effort to offer this product to my clientele.

I'll never be able to sell what I don't like - if Thomas K****** were to come into my shop and offer me a million dollars to sell his alleged "artwork" I'd boot him right out the door even if I were starving.

My shop - my rules.

Goddess - maybe Cleveland will be a road trip after I get my eyesight restored!!!
 
Bob makes a good point about utilizing vendor sales on glass and rebates to create "the perception of a sale" in the eyes of the customer. He taught a class on this in LV. Be sure and look for it at other trade shows.

I noticed that Aaron Brothers advertises in the store that they will replace the backings in their readymade frames with AFFC at no charge up to 11 x 14. Since they are probably throwing this out anyway, they created "value" in the customers eyes and goodwill because they got something "free". I am sure that the labor cost of replacing the backing is figured into their sales price, so Aaron Brothers still makes a good profit, sells more, and increases their buying power.

Bob taught in his class that the small framer can capitalize on this "perception" by creating "sales" in your store through selective buying of certain kinds of merchandise, creative promotion of merchandise, and changing the promotions so they don't get stale. Another example he gave is offering "free fillet" sales utilizing left over fillet - which always looks better in a fabic mat, increases the sales price, uses up leftover fillet, and "educates" the customer about thinking about utilizing a fillet in their next framing job. They didn't just see it in your store, they went home with one "free" in their custom framed piece.

Am I getting your idea across correctly, Bob?
 
Why on earth would anyone throw away a piece of 11x14 acid free foam core????? I use every ounce of it - down to 1/2" strips for spacers!

Aren't I being cost-effective???
 
So, Bob - that's why it is so wonderful - cause it sells for more???
Um, yeah, that's part of it. Call me silly, but I'll gladly pay a few extra dollars for materials if it ends up putting more dollars in my pocket at the end of the day. And I'll gladly pay a few extra dollars if my customer gets a product with which she is very satisfied and gives her added value.
 
Hi Terry-You get a gold star for "getting" the class. Many do not and there are many like Framar just don't want to. As he says, "His shop-his rules". Your mention of the "free filet" promo was one of the many that have worked really well on many different levels. And, for everyone that works well, bet the farm, that we have run some that were, uh, not so successful. Some of flat stunk up the joint.

We do take a Babe Ruth approach to promotions. We are always swinging for the fences, but we do strike out every so often. But, we do try and keep 'em coming back to see our next "at bat".

Everybody can do something to create a little sizzle. Plan right, buy right, execute correctly and you just might hit one out of the park. Our last Holiday Promo was a grand slam on several levels

I certainly agree that it is his shop to do with as he wishes, but I am not too sure that it is something that we ought to recommend to others. One thing that scares me about this forum is that while information does go out at the speed of light, bad information goes out at the same speed. And someone, somehwere might read it and think it is wise. We just need to be careful about cutting our noses off to spite our... well, you know what I mean

And, Framar, right before you kick ol'Thom out, will you please send him my way? Not only will I take that $1 million, I'll even send you a crisp $100 bill for your referral

Our good friend, Jim, brings up a good point about selling what we like. We all do it; it's human nature. But, the smarter merchant will sell what the consumer likes, too. And, it is just easier to sell from a full wagon than from an empty one.
For those products that we just don't like, I would suggest that you just don't buy them for yourself. But, I sure don't have any problem with letting the consumer make up his own mind.

But, one last suggestion: If you truly will not sell a product for whatever reason, throw it away. Don't even allow the consumer to see it. If it does come up, your negativity on that product could surely jeopardize the entire presentation. It is easier to say you do not carry a certain product that to sell it badly
 
As an aside for all you TK lovers...
About 100 years ago there was this entrepreneurially gifted young artist who painted fantastic images of dreamlike landscapes with overblown color palates and had them copied and printed on every imaginable surface. Calendars, gift cards, wallpaper, just name it and the images were there. There is one image by the artist that I believe is still the most widely reproduced image ever made.
People framed his work and proudly hung it in their homes. The "real" artists scoffed at the pedestrian use of the images, and the young man laughed all the way to the bank.
One of the tricks used in his paintings was to juxtapose light warm tones against dark cool tones, especially his favorite, cerulean blue. (Did I just give the answer away?) This created graphic tension between the colors and made the paintings appear to have a light unto themselves.
Sound familiar.
Would you have wanted to be the proud owner of a framing business that forbade the work of Fredrick Maxfield Parrish to grace your walls?
 
Bob, FYI - I am not a "he" I am a "she."

And I know I am not the best businessperson around, but I just wanted some opinions about what made Museum Glass worth its price - other than being able to make money with it.

Once I read about its visual acuity aspects, that meakes it more worth while for me to offer. It's just that for a while there I thought its only worth was monetary, and I still can't honestly sell something just because it is expensive. It has to have value as well as cost, knowhatImean? I am now pretty certain it has that value so I'll be selling it. Simple - yes?

And Wally - I have a house full of old Parrishes (prints) - LOL! I wouldn't compare him to TK at all!!! I don't take issue with TK for selling a lot of his work - I take issue with his holier than thou attitude. I don't think Parriah had that. You know that blue was invented just for him!!! I call it Parrish Blue when I see it in the evening sky,,,
 
So, Framar, perhaps if you would ever sign your name I might have clue as to your gender. FYI-take a poll and see how many others had no idea. Maybe I was the only one.

I am a little surprised that with all the literature, discussion on the G, and your own personal experience that this thread was the tipping point in your conclusion that this product has any merit?

The Marketing people at Tru-Vue must be shuddering
 
Mar,
Give it a try with different pieces of artwork and you'll see what I mean. The half n'half presentations can be very dramatic. Three-dimensional pieces work especially well. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's not worth it!


Yeegads, Wally are you defending TK...? Interesting parallels nonetheless. I wonder what his reputation was ethically... if there are any further comparisons (or contrasts) there.

Bob,
I am surprised that the light transmission thingy is not even strongly touted by Tru-Vue, it fact it barely rates a mention in their literature. Either that or I totally missed it. I figured it out on my own and then saw that one lil line in their literature. Hmmm, and it was the kicker to me.
shrug.gif
Tru-Vue could be shuddering or they could just sit up and listen...

edie the itsallinthedetails goddess
 
Heavens no FG! I was trying to point out that we, last of all, will get to determine the fate of any living artist. Parrish was much akin to TK in his style, subject, marketing, and general acceptance in the American home. Many thought of him much as we do TK, but the history books are now written and he is a hero of Art Nouveau.
When all is said and done the relative importance of TK in the world of art will be written long after we are gone.
I may not have liked Parrish's work if I had been living at the time. It was at odds with the emergence of abstraction and cubism and he was considered to be a good illustrator, but not a great artist.
What bugs me the most is that TK's work might be that which defines a decade...like disco and the 70's. Icky, icky, icky. But that is not for us to decide, not now at any rate.

Oh, anybody remember life before Museum Glass? Denglass UV. A sandwich of 2 layers of 2mm glass on either side of a 1mm UV acrylic core with the dipped quartz coating. Special order only from Denton Vaccuum in NJ for about $60.00/sf. No easy sell, but was the only game in town when the client needed all the features.
 
FraMAR,

If you are going to take a poll then I, for one, knew you weren't a he.

During my time on the Grumble reading your other posts I was intrigued and felt I should check out your website. Great site, great store, like the ideas you express on the Grumble.

WHen I saw the picture of Kim and Mar on your website, then saw that your Grumble handle ended in MAR, I just assumed that you must be the Mar in the picture! Silly me making assumptions. Forgive me for making assumptions!
 
Thank you, Bob Doyle, for the compliments on the website. FRAMAR has been my license plate for many years now and it evolved into my website (framaree.com) and my Grumble name. I will once again tell the story of how when I first registered for the Grumble I was like a starving person jumping on food - I barely read it at all or I would have known that "Framar" was WAY too close to "framer" (our humble leader) but I thought my gender was well established back in Ausust of 2001 when Ron and Charles found out I was a she.

And Bob Carter - signing my name would be no better than using Framar because I get stacks of mail addressed to Mr. Mar. Sorry for the confusion. But I have been Mar far longer than I have been my "real" name - and the only people who call me that are the IRS and my dentist! And even my real name is bi-sexual (so to speak). Just ask John Wayne - no wait, you can't - he's dead!

Sorry for the confusion.

And sometimes it takes the real experience of real people that you trust to amke a product "come to life" as opposed to the blah-blah-blah put out by ANY of the marketing folks. That's why I LOVE the Grumble. Real people - real framers.
 
Mar-I am convinced that if we sat down at a table at the trade shows, that we would have no confusion as to gender (I look like a cross between Brad Pitt and Robert Redford) Okay that part is a lie

But your comment about real people is magnified face to face.

Like Will Rogers, I haven't met a framer that I didn't like. And that goes for Tom Reigle (Framerguy), too
 
Originally posted by Bob Carter:
(I look like a cross between Brad Pitt and Robert Redford)

Like Will Rogers, I haven't met a framer that I didn't like. And that goes for Tom Reigle (Framerguy), too
Actually, Bob looks more like a cross between Brad Pitt's bowling ball and ................ uh, wait a minute, ..........

<font size=1>(that last part may have been a vague compliment towards me!!)</font> :eek:

Well yes, Bob is a mature looking refined gentleman who simply oozes class out of every pore of his follicly deprived upper stature!!
thumbsup.gif


(Geez, Bob, ya gotta quit tryin' to trick me like that!!!)
party.gif
shutup.gif
:cool:

Framerguy
 
Tom-To call my upper body follicly challenged indicates that you have not seen my with shirt off (to both our delights). It's the penthouse that is lacking.

And it was a compliment that I made a poor attempt of trying to be cute.

Either that or it's April 1st
 
Penthouse?? Yeah, I felt that sounded a bit too Trumpish for a down to earth guy like you!

Maybe I should have described your shiny pate as the "extreme pinnacle of knowledge"??
shrug.gif


BTW, we need to talk soon. I'll be in touch.

FGII
 
Originally posted by wpfay:
There is one image by the artist that I believe is still the most widely reproduced image ever made.
Sorry Wally, not so. The most reproduced image ever made is of DeWitt Clinton, the father of the Erie Canal.

It is a woodblock of him carrying a barrel of water, 75 miles to the Hudson and dumping it in.

It was reproduced on a little blue stamp that graced every single cigarette pack since 1917. We are talking BILLIONS of little pictures....

I used to even have one of those suckers framed, but lost it several years ago in a fire. I don't smoke anymore since I lost my right lung, so I can't tell you if it's still there... the stamp, not the lung. :D
 
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