Why do framers always want new profiles?

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David Waldmann

David Waldmann

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I made this comment in another thread and it was suggested that I start a new thread, so here it is.

I am (and always have been) confused at the constant demand for new profiles. We go to shows and when people find out there's nothing new they just move on.

I think most on here are intent on framing for longevity. Conservation max in many cases (no paper mats, no plain glass in my shop! etc). If you really expect your pieces to be around for generations why are you framing to the style-of-the-minute?!!

We are not a huge "successful" company by most CEO's estimation, but I believe that the reason we sell as much as we do is because a minimalist frame, while it may not "go" with every decor and every piece of art, also is not horridly detracting if you change decor 90° every three years. Then again I'm just a hillbilly (I guess my word of choice is non grata here) who has absolutely no artistic sense, and tend to make decisions that are practical (what I can put numbers to) and what feels "right" to me.

I'll add:
While I can understand that a framer might get bored by using the same thing over and over, if you consider that the average consumer buys maybe between one and ten custom frames per life time; why not give them something that is truly enduring in all respects?
 
I don't think frame design is all enduring.

Framing, to me, is part of the furniture business, design business. Which means you do need something new from time to time. Or something you can sell to a younger crowd who do not want their grandparent's framing.

Framing is about options. Which means we need options and the more the better.

However, bringing out a new line which is basically just replacing an old line is not really all that exciting. I will be looking more into offering true custom finishes (thank youAndy!) that I can finish every way I want.
 
As a "consumer" of molding, and as a retailer, what I'm looking for is the next knockout best-seller. I'd also be looking for what I can flog quickly and buy by the box.

And I would want assurances that my favourite profiles have not been discontinued.

In other words, I want it all.
 
As a designer, the more elements I have to design with the better.
 
i wish someone would make a range of profiles in a range of simple colours. most of my suppliers have say 4 profiles sizes in a range and can get 3-4 colours ie black white, ivory wenge for example
 
Like it has been said before--"We go to Trade Shows to see new moulding and how other people use the moulding." As for companies who lead the march with new patterns --Bella, J. Orr, Direct Moulding, Global, Gemini-- to name a few show "designer items" that are seen in trade magazines the designer read. Not that we sell very much to the designer trade today, they do refer customers. As for maybe the last of the true moulding companies to lead the field -- I would have to say Peter La Marchie was one the cutting edge (as well as Crag Ponzio (sp) of Larson juhl), but neither are now in the industry. I agree with what has been said about all the companies showing the same thing in different color tones, but same shape. Peter La Marchie told me that at their vendor shows the producer lines up their mouldings on a table and our vendor picked the colors they wanted --next person picked the next color, etc. all from the same basic 100 or so patterns and sizes. I don't want to say this is a simple process, but we see very few new ideas in mouldings today and the cost to the vendor makes it that way. Thirty or forty years ago we finished most of our mouldings, but today we can find most mouldings from the twenty or so companies we select our samples.

Short answer: We need new mouldings because the customer expects to see what the design trade and galleries are showing.
 
Thanks for starting this thread David.

Ok so my thoughts echo a lot that has already been stated.

I tend to fall in love with frames........ I have about 15 that I'm just dying to use on something.

Another thing is.... I like seeing what companies are coming out with.
I like knowing they are trying new things and offering wide varities and growing and trying to appease me and get my attention. I have one company that hasn't come out with anything new in the last 3 years. Guess what.... I forget about them. :shrug:


When I get new samples in... I kinda challenge myself to see if I can use that moulding ASAP.


In short......... It's like shoes... I'm always looking for a new pair, a better fit... a better color...a better price... something unique... YOU CAN NEVER have enough shoes....... ;)
 
blackiris said:
When I get new samples in... I kinda challenge myself to see if I can use that moulding ASAP.


In short......... It's like shoes... I'm always looking for a new pair, a better fit... a better color...a better price... something unique... YOU CAN NEVER have enough shoes....... ;)
Click to expand...

attagirl! ;)

I do exactly the same. Down to the shoes too....
 
David N Waldmann said:
I am (and always have been) confused at the constant demand for new profiles. We go to shows and when people find out there's nothing new they just move on.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to your booth when your are exhibiting? If so, I'll assume they have your products already.

Quality and consistency is most important to me, but there is no point in spending too much time with you if you don't have something new to offer. With more than 3000 corners on my wall, if a company does not have something different or better quality and price, I move on. Seems pretty simple to me. There is a huge amount of overlap of offerings out there.

Being an art gallery as well, I still can't find enough choice in profiles, finish, and quality.

As far as I am concerned, most designers and buyers don't have a clue. Artists are one of the largest consumers of molding, yet they don't offer enough "gallery" profiles to fit my needs.

Maybe Less doesn't have a clue as they keep discontinuing the large moldings he likes.

In addition to wide "gallery" frames, we have a need for wider wood.
 
Blame Madison Avenue. Consumers aren't driven by education or taste, they are fad driven. The late 70's and 80's were great for "innovative" frame design, most of which is now in the dumpster or the kids apartment until they can afford something they like.
I would guess that 90% of what I used to frame was of the same ilk. Retail, the design industry, housing, etc. are all driven by planned obsolescence. They won't survive if they can't convince the consumer that the newest improved product is actually better that last years newest improved product (Microsoft excepted).
Mercedes almost designed themselves out of business with the 240D & 300D (late 70's-mid 80's). These cars were designed to last 6 million miles. Thats why the engineers were kicked out of control of the company in '85 and a bunch of marketing people took over.

Keep making your beautiful hardwood frames, Dave. You might not set the world on fire, but you should have a steady business with those that appreciate such things.
 
It is usually the sales people that get tired of the same old profiles, but when a customer walks in to your shop they are(usually) seeing your frames for the first time and it is the sales people who are there to SELL it to them. Having said that if I see a good new profile I will not hesitate to add it to our range, you can also bet that it will be used within the next ordering cycle lol.
 
Styles and trends change. People don't like the same thing their parents did. They don't want the same thing their siblings have. So they look for something different. It is "cool" (trite term) to be different.

Framers & frame styles are the same. Our customers want something that is unique to them, and seeing new frame ideas helps us. I mean, 40 years ago how many framers would have had frame styles with skulls and bones frames (eg Direct Moulding Iki, Dv8,...)? Most would have probably been gold, followed by smooth surface wood (walnut, cherry, pecan, maple). And you would have probably had green painted frames to go with the Avocado colored kitchen appliances.

But this year how many gold frames have you sold? How about in the last few years?

But don't throw out all that gold moulding yet, I have a feeling that golds might be coming back. And for me I love the hardwoods.
 
In my case I have a lot of distributors and to consolidate shipping costs I am generally not looking for new suppliers. I use a lot of classic mouldings but I have distributors for those already. If someone new is trying to get my business I need to either see a more enticing price or unique style that I think I can sell. I hope that helps.

Ed
 
I love it when someone brings in an old framed piece and want "something" done to it because it looks tired. Yes you may have found another frame that has been out for 20 years and it would at the very least look clean and refreshed. But you can also transform it into something that looks awesome. More suited to this piece, mat colour matching better, maybe even a CMC mat design, a frame profile can make a huge difference as to colours of it. Like anything, moulding companies are trying to find those mouldings that are keepers.
There are hundreds of shades of colours and only 1 might be right for the artwork, then hundreds of profiles and only 1 that suits the artwork. When you find that combination you finish the masterpiece. Unfortunately sometimes that one moulding only has the one match. So the search goes on.
 
it's not so much want new profiles that is sticking maybe..... just that
people are getting tired with having a wall of boards. Just flat ***ed boards
5/8" wide to 4" wide boards. Black, white, brown, cherry, walnut, wenge,
madrone, oak, poplar, maple.... I don't care.... what...

When you stick a flat moulding on a picture... it will never look like anything
but a BOARD.

687 years of progress..... then someone in the 1980s discovered that you
could run a rabbet on a board... slice it in different widths.... and sell as a frame.

If I could go back in time and find that designer.... I'd gladly serve the 15-20
for killing them.

Yeah, I know a new set of knives can run you $780... so what.... Cost of doing business.....
or at least that is what you tell framers when they complain of price hikes.

I would like to see hot pressed maples come back.. as long as they are made in USA.
Some of the really nice simple colonials.... anything but another stinking board.

There is no design, creativity or talent to slap a board around something... "the color matches" :confused:

Just my own personal rant..... bad day. tomorrow worse.... wont turn on computer then.
 
[video=youtube;McFBzBlWulo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McFBzBlWulo[/video]
 
It's astonishing just how many variations you can get on the shape of a piece of wood. And just what difference a little detail can make.

I would like to see more profiles in width increments. So if you had a 1" profile, scale it up to produce 1.25", 1.5", 1.75", 2.25" 2.75" versions. Very useful when people want a 'theme' moulding on different size pictures.
 
Baer Charlton said:
When you stick a flat moulding on a picture... it will never look like anything
but a BOARD.

There is no design, creativity or talent to slap a board around something...[heavily edited by me] "
Click to expand...

I find that when I put a totally flat profile, especially a rustic, on art, the man says "I can make that. Why don't I make the frame, honey?" and then that is the end of the sale. We no longer have 'lumber' on our walls. Flats have to have a fillet included, or a groove, or a round back.
 
David N Waldmann said:
If you really expect your pieces to be around for generations why are you framing to the style-of-the-minute?!!
Click to expand...
Good question.

Personally, I agree with your premise. Over the years, consumers tend to gravitate toward the same traditional styles and finishes, unless a framer shows and sells something new and exciting!. When we can already have 10,000 different frame samples on our walls, do we really need new designs? Even so, probably 75% of our sales consist of traditional, boring, old designs or slight variations of them.

For every customer that brings in a 5-10 year old frame to have the moulding replaced with something new, there are several who want repairs on old frames and antiques they still appreciate.

The constant quest for something new is driven by marketing, mostly. Our industry is populated by style-conscious retailers, artists and designers. We - and nearly all of our suppliers - have been trained to believe that if it isn't new and exciting!, it is old and boring. When we go to trade shows and when the suppliers' reps arrive, the conversation starts with, "What's new?"

Another reason to introduce new moulding designs is to cut or contain cost. As hardwood species have become scarce and expensive, manufacturers have designed new and exciting! mouldings on mushwood with faux finishes.

But let's face it...we can make new and exciting frame designs, and unique as well, by stacking or modifying the finishes on mouldings, liners, and fillets that have been with us for decades.

In the clothing industry, styles change four times a year and people can't wait to see what's coming up next. But still, some styles are timeless and have nearly-universal appeal. Frame mouldings are like that, too.
 
David, perhaps it has more to do with the fact that they're at a show. One of the main reasons for attending is to see what's new. They've got a limited amount of time also.
 
I think that there is a place for both... classic designs and new trend styles. In the end it is the customers decision on what style they want.

"You can lead a horse to water.... but, you can not make them drink."
 
Customers like to see new and different things when they visit a shop. Having some trendy styles shows that you are paying attention to what's going on "out there". Still, I think the old 80/20 rule applies... you probably make 80% of your designs from 20% of your selection- the reliable favorites. Some may be very classic and some not so much. That group of favorites evolves slowly over time, necessitating new styles to freshen the mix.
:popc: Rick
 
SOME distributors give you have NO choice but to go with new profiles. Why? They discontinue a bunch of 'em every year.
 
It's not that I want a new profile, it's that my customers want them. I would be totally satisfied with 15 - 20 selections of corners on the wall but my customers would not like that.

It's not like searching for new profiles is something new. Artist & customers have insisted on new and different profiles for about as long as there has been framed art. There is Whistler, Leather frames, Japanese frames, Blondel, American Modernist frames, French Louis XIII style frames, Italian Renaissance frames, and the list just keeps right on going. My point is that different profiles and frames are not something new. People have looked for that different style/profile forever.

If I don't keep changing and adding a new look my customers will go shopping for it someplace else. I guess I would like to be the shop that satisfies my customers so therefore I will have to be looking for new & best profiles.

Just my $0.02 Joe B
 
I suppose mouldings come and go with the fads of the art market. There is still a core of 'classic' stuff that doesn't change from year to year. There are mouldings that are really useful and don't really date that get disco'd which is quite annoying sometimes. By all means have a bit of fresh blood now and then but there is a lot to say for a bit of continuity. One of the reasons I got into hand-finishing is that I can always repeat finishes as long as I can get the profile. And if the profile wasn't gettable off the shelf it's not a huge embuggerance to have some milled.
 
EllenAtHowards said:
I find that when I put a totally flat profile, especially a rustic, on art, the man says "I can make that. Why don't I make the frame, honey?" and then that is the end of the sale. We no longer have 'lumber' on our walls. Flats have to have a fillet included, or a groove, or a round back.
Click to expand...


Oooo, you mean. . . they have to look like "Moulding"?

Instead of "Just Four Sticks".... like some book publisher?
 
prospero said:
There is still a core of 'classic' stuff that doesn't change from year to year. There are mouldings that are really useful and don't really date that get disco'd which is quite annoying sometimes. By all means have a bit of fresh blood now and then but there is a lot to say for a bit of continuity.
Click to expand...
I agree with you, Peter, except that down here the core of classic stuff has almost disappeared!

There have been many useful mouldings that have been discontinued over the years, because the suppliers don't sell enough. There are other mouldings that three or four suppliers have versions of, which from a framers point of view is nuts! The biggest problem with that is that the suppliers all try to compete with each other on price, so the quality goes down the dunny and the mouldings become so bad that they are unusable.

The biggest problem I see is that there are way too many mouldings available that are similar!

Bait and switch is the other huge problem. Manufacturers often come out with a new range in excellent quality, but the quality changes to carp in a short time. Sometimes a new manufacturer is sought to make an existing moulding and they get it completely wrong! Don't get me started on quality of mouldings! (or foamboard)
 
Who remembers wallpaper mouldings? :smiley: Going back to the 80's now.... The first versions were very up-market. Looked classy but cost a fortune. It was primarily used on mirrors which sold for around the £400 mark. So the price made them sort of exclusive. Then cheaper versions came along. Carp-looking paper, but more got sold. Then photo-printed patterns and eventually plastic. Couldn't give the stuff away today. :icon11:
 
There's a lot of interesting insight that I hadn't considered, and I've seen a lot of good reasons for selling "new and exciting" or "Madison Ave". After all, I do understand that you have to give the customer what they want.

But I still haven't heard how you reconcile the difference between doing framing intended to last for generations and a design that will probably be out of style before the decade is over.
 
Baer Charlton said:
When you stick a flat moulding on a picture... it will never look like anything
but a BOARD.
Click to expand...

I can't really argue with you there. But if that's what people want...

Baer Charlton said:
687 years of progress..... then someone in the 1980s discovered that you
could run a rabbet on a board... slice it in different widths.... and sell as a frame.
Click to expand...

Virtually every "fancy" profile we've offered has been discontinued due to lack of interest. I guess we just have a lot of indiscriminate hill billy customers. Which suits us hill billies just fine.

Baer Charlton said:
Yeah, I know a new set of knives can run you $780... so what.... Cost of doing business.....
or at least that is what you tell framers when they complain of price hikes.
Click to expand...

It would be a very complicated profile to cost that much. Most knife sets will be $100-200 and inconsequential in the whole scheme of things.

Baer Charlton said:
There is no design, creativity or talent to slap a board around something... "the color matches" :confused:
Click to expand...

Thankfully, art is subjective :)
 
osgood said:
I agree with you, Peter, except that down here the core of classic stuff has almost disappeared!

There have been many useful mouldings that have been discontinued over the years, because the suppliers don't sell enough. There are other mouldings that three or four suppliers have versions of, which from a framers point of view is nuts! The biggest problem with that is that the suppliers all try to compete with each other on price, so the quality goes down the dunny and the mouldings become so bad that they are unusable.

The biggest problem I see is that there are way too many mouldings available that are similar!

Bait and switch is the other huge problem. Manufacturers often come out with a new range in excellent quality, but the quality changes to carp in a short time. Sometimes a new manufacturer is sought to make an existing moulding and they get it completely wrong! Don't get me started on quality of mouldings! (or foamboard)
Click to expand...

I agree with all of that.

prospero said:
Who remembers wallpaper mouldings? :smiley: Going back to the 80's now.... The first versions were very up-market. Looked classy but cost a fortune. It was primarily used on mirrors which sold for around the £400 mark. So the price made them sort of exclusive. Then cheaper versions came along. Carp-looking paper, but more got sold. Then photo-printed patterns and eventually plastic. Couldn't give the stuff away today. :icon11:
Click to expand...

Yes, I think the first ones were by Guerrini or Arquati. Remember the ones with lacquer inner and outer edges and a panel of rattan down the middle? Very classy to admire through your aviator style glasses while wearing your padded shoulder jacket and turtleneck sweater.
:popc: Rick
 
Paul Cascio said:
David, perhaps it has more to do with the fact that they're at a show. One of the main reasons for attending is to see what's new. They've got a limited amount of time also.
Click to expand...

You're right.

I guess I'm just more used to business being conducted on more of a relationship basis than "strictly business". But I know some people don't even have enough time to walk the whole show floor.

Thanks for the reminder.

But I still refuse to come out with new stuff all the time just for the shelf space and hype...
 
David N Waldmann said:
But I still haven't heard how you reconcile the difference between doing framing intended to last for generations and a design that will probably be out of style before the decade is over.
Click to expand...

Instead of planned obsolescence, we have planned out of date designing. When customers have valuable art and they redecorate, they can reframe to a more 'in' style.
 
David N Waldmann said:
I'll add:
While I can understand that a framer might get bored by using the same thing over and over, if you consider that the average consumer buys maybe between one and ten custom frames per life time; why not give them something that is truly enduring in all respects?
Click to expand...


Actually, my ideal customer is someone who reframes their artwork to fit their current lifestyle and home décor. Hopefully keeping us in business.
 
David,

I just don't understand the desire to have newer and better profiles. There may be a small group of people looking for you to produce a similar product to prefinished frame places, but in the end, I just don't see the benefit.

I'm a firm believer in the choice overload paradox. The more options a consumer has (past a certain point), the worse decision they make, are less satisfied with the decision, and the business owner will ultimately make less money.

See: http://www.amazon.com/The-Paradox-Choice-More-Less/dp/0060005696 and http://www.ted.com/talks/sheena_iyengar_choosing_what_to_choose.html

Would it be possible to have a sheet of knives you have on hand, and could be produced on an on demand basis? This doesn't help the frame shop looking for chops/join, but would be good to see the options for those that cut and finish their own, or that buy 50-100ft+ at a time. And if one of them is a big seller, maybe make it an in stock production item.
 
One thing that has been floating about in my head for a while is why doesn't someone devise system of mouldings that fit together in different ways. Take a flat moulding with a raised bead on the inside. Add another moulding to the outside and you have something different. Expanding on that principle you could have a mix'n'match family of moulding which could be used individually of combined to produce 100's of sections.
OK, that's nothing new. Framers have been stacking mouldings for as long as there have been frames. But sometimes it's awkward. On a panel frame where you want an outer moulding in gold, a flat painted panel and then an inner gold, it looks odd if the golds are different. Or if you find two matching golds, the shape is wrong. I'm surprised no manufacturer has done this. Would be a good steady seller.

Just thinking......:icon21:
 
This situation is similar to eyeglass frames. Even though they are basically the same in terms of general appearance and function, they do reflect trends in color, fashion etc. Some people like this, others, like me, are resistant to change in this respect, and go crazy when their old favorite is discontinued.

I had worn the same frame design for several years, and when I went for glasses a while back, just asked for a repeat. Discontinued. Found something similar, but also tried something very different just to feel as though I was open minded. In the end, picked the new style, and I have never had so many compliments on my eyeglass frames (even from strangers), and believe me, I am not used to being complimented on my fashion sense. So, needed new glasses a short while ago, and confidently asked for these new frames again - discontinued!!

Wouldn't it be great if while still getting new things in to choose from, manufacturers could have a core selection that they guarantee would remain in production for X years? That way, for situations where a customer is planning to add to a collection, or knows they will need repeat orders, they could feel more reassured knowing they would have the option of framing them alike.
 
prospero said:
One thing that has been floating about in my head for a while is why doesn't someone devise system of mouldings that fit together in different ways. Take a flat moulding with a raised bead on the inside. Add another moulding to the outside and you have something different. Expanding on that principle you could have a mix'n'match family of moulding which could be used individually of combined to produce 100's of sections.
OK, that's nothing new. Framers have been stacking mouldings for as long as there have been frames. But sometimes it's awkward. On a panel frame where you want an outer moulding in gold, a flat painted panel and then an inner gold, it looks odd if the golds are different. Or if you find two matching golds, the shape is wrong. I'm surprised no manufacturer has done this. Would be a good steady seller.

Just thinking......:icon21:
Click to expand...
Are you talking about enhancers? A lot of companies were doing that for a while but as I understand it they were getting frustrated with the difference of opinion from the framers. In order to sell them framers wanted them to be less expensive, so the manufacturers stopped finishing the outside edge to bring down the price. Then framers started complaining because they sold the enhancer as a frame and the outside edge wasn't finished. It's very rare these days that I can sell stacked frames because of the cost so only one of my shops has enhancers left on the wall. I don't think I've sold an enhancer in about five years.

Ed
 
josephforthill said:
This situation is similar to eyeglass frames.
Click to expand...

I see it (no pun intended) as quite a bit different. No one expects to wear the same eyeglasses for the rest of their lives whereas quality framing is generally promoted as being a potential heirloom.
 
prospero said:
One thing that has been floating about in my head for a while is why doesn't someone devise system of mouldings that fit together in different ways. Take a flat moulding with a raised bead on the inside. Add another moulding to the outside and you have something different......:icon21:
Click to expand...


Larson Juhl does this with some of their lines. ZEN, SORRENTO & METRO all stack together nicely.

Doug
 
David N Waldmann said:
I see it (no pun intended) as quite a bit different. No one expects to wear the same eyeglasses for the rest of their lives whereas quality framing is generally promoted as being a potential heirloom.
Click to expand...

No, but similar in that there are many people who do not change their style and who replace worn out items with a similar, if not identical version. Just look at how many posts there have been "anyone have a stick of discontinued...?" - There's room for all, but it would be nice to have a few "guaranteed" choices for people with long range plans.
 
josephforthill said:
This situation is similar to eyeglass frames...
Click to expand...

I've thought about that before. I don't wear prescription glasses- just readers- but I have been to eyeglass shops with my wife when she has picked out hers. It is similar in that there are technical as well as aesthetic choices to consider, and the trying-on of different styles is akin to the frame design process. When selling Museum Glass, I often describe the anti-reflective coating as being similar to that used on eyeglass lenses, since that is something people can identify with and are already used to purchasing. One other thought that relates is that if people think custom picture frames are expensive, they ought to think about the prices of designer eyeglass frames... even before factoring in the lenses.
:cool: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
One other thought that relates is that if people think custom picture frames are expensive, they ought to think about the prices of designer eyeglass frames... even before factoring in the lenses.
:cool: Rick
Click to expand...

There was a article on 60 Minutes that went into the sudden cost jump of about 80% of
all glasses. They are all made by the same company in Italy and when asked about the
300% jump in price.... the owner just shrugged with a smile.... "why not? It's fashiion."

Man, I wish we could get away with that kind of ****. My eye doctor carries almost nothing
but the Euro-Italian look... So I changed to CostCo. I paid $110 for my "all the bells and whistles"
aviators... they just aren't Ray-ban or Foster Grant - - They are by Stetson.... made in Illinois.
Now, if only Sherwood would replace my 30yr old Foster Grants that I can no longer get parts
for... I'd be a happy camper. I think I would be stylin' in Wenge.

But back to OUR frames. Sticker shock.... I usually just ask what they are going to pay for
their next set of tires..... (not everyone wears glasses)

Or.... "what do you budget for food every month?" I don't have to ask if they still have
last month's food......

I have watched what people are excited about at the show..... and then listen to what people
are saying here six months later.......
Dennis Mathewson frames..... "Tattoos for the wall" "Wow, these will be a BIG hit with...."
and I'm still waiting to hear that more than six people are selling them more than once or twice.

Interestingly, our two tattoo freaks, almost fell asleep when I showed them the samples for
their antique flash cards, or their original art...... but whip out an 3" Beidimeir, or other colonial
shape and style.... they are all over it.

That hot hot HOT sparkle-lame-rhinestone looking board moulding that is $85/ft for the 2-1/2" - - -
our customers thought we put them up as a joke; but they understand the 4" wide Louie 15th.
 
MitchelC said:
SOME distributors give you have NO choice but to go with new profiles. Why? They discontinue a bunch of 'em every year.
Click to expand...

They discontinue them because they aren't selling. The fact that they don't sell should tell you something.
 
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