Who's right, Michael's?

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clifpa

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Posts
319
Loc
Huntington Beach, CA
Gggooood Morning all,

I just hired a guy (certified by Michael's) for the holiday's and he is doing very well.

However, I believe that my shop should be consistant in technique. Either I should change my approach, if what he is doing is correct, or he should change if mine is.

When I attach wire to a mid-size framing job I usually screw in my clasp (?) wire hangers about 1/3 (the vertical size of the frame) down. When the wire is pulled up towards the top of the frame I measure 2-2 1/2 inches, usually 2". bigger frames I use wallbuddies.

My helper puts the hanging clasp nearly 1/2 down the vertical and puts the wire on with limited up/down movement.

I hold the picture up holding the wire in the middle (like it were hanging on a wall) and it would work? He doesn't seem to measure?

Maybe I'm wasting a lot of production time since he can whip out a framing job so much faster then me. (I'm old so I'm supposed to be slow..wink)

Oh yea, :D

best
 
Cliffton, you are to be commended for wanting to learn the correct way to do this (or any other job.) And there are right and wrong ways to do things.

This thread could be just another excuse to rally around the common feelings of how stupid those people are.

But may I suggest another direction? The one of "just who is the boss anyway?" Regardless of whether you are right or not, you are the boss. Any time I am paying someone to do something, they will do it the way I pay them to do it. Otherwise, they will not be paid any longer.

I don't think the issue is the incompetency of the bb employees (many of whom are more than capable.) But is one of "who's the boss."

I think you already know the "correct" way to do this. Doncha? ;)

Betty
 
You are more correct than he is.

Think about what happens to the angle at which the picture will hang. The further down you mount the hardware the greater the angle, or the further the top of the frame will sit away from the wall.

Additionally, there is a great thread on the Grumble about the stresses related to the wire angle will produce on the hardware and the frame.

Prove it to yourself. On a frame job with a narrow frame, tie the wire with very little slack. Pull the wire and you will see how much stress it places on the frame. It will bow inward very easily. Then, gradually try the same test at greater distances and you will see much Less stress is placed on the hardware, wire, and frame.

I think it was Greg Framstad who enlighten me with his thread.

Just because he is fast doesn't mean he is good.
Check to make sure the job is done right first, so you don't get it back and do it over.

Learn what he has to offer, but never let him forget who is the boss.

[ 11-23-2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]
 
I have always believed and been told in all the classes I took that the wiring mechanism should be 1/3 of the way down the side rails and the wire should end up at a 60 degree angle to within 2 inches of the top of the frame. How right this is I don't know but almost all the craft store I have ever worked in or visited wire their frames nearly horizontally.
The end answer to your question is really who is the boss, You have a right to ask the framer to do it your way as it really is the norm in our field.

Jill
 
Clif - you're absolutely 1)right and 2) The Boss. Tell smarty pants to check this:
http://www.artfacts.org/

click "standards" and "Hanging by Cord or Wire"
It gets into lots of technical reasons why
YOU DON'T pull the wire tight.

Tony
 
Yeah, Cliff,

I am with these guys on how to attach wire to a frame package! The link that Tony gave you will show the stresses that different angles of wire will place on a frame AND the wire.

One third down from the top of the frame has been the accepted practice for years and the angle of the wire may not be quite the same in each case depending on the vertical length of the sides but your methods are generally correct.

On anything larger than a 16x20 I either use the small or the large WallBuddies so wire angle and screweye placement isn't an issue. And, on these chrocheted names and any other long or tall narrow framings, small WB's are almost a must with me.

Tell the guy to shape up or you will have a few "professionals" of your own pay him a visit in the dead of night and get his head on straight!!

(Hey T and Omar, saddle up!! I feel a mission coming on!) ;)

Framerguy
 
Hey Cliff-You didn't mentioned if this employee wouldn't do it your way. It looks like we have a lynch mob on our hands and I'm not sure if this employee has been given a choice. Left to our devices, we do what someone before has told us.

Tell him what you want-I'm sure he'll do it however you wish. I mean, framers aren't the kind of people that hold such things as anything sacred, are they?

But, what I would certainly do is try and learn what he does that makes him so much faster. Heck, even us old dogs can stand to learn a few new tricks, even if it comes from Michael's.

Tell us what he does that makes him so fast-we might be able to incorporate some of these time-savers, also.

But, I sure wouldn't let this guy go if he does everything else well
 
Originally posted by lessafinger:

...but never let him forget who is the boss.
Click to expand...
Is that really necessary? The only time my boss felt the need to let me know who was boss was when I had the temerity to insist that there needs to be allowance for expansion and contraction in both dimensions (even if glass is liquid.)
 
"M" instructs their employees to go down 1/3 for hangers. That has been their policy in the past. You are right, not him.
 
Or you can look at it this way. If that is all that you are having a problem with... CONGRATULATIONS!!! I'm sure he can be just as fast no matter where you would like the wire. He won't be offended when you let him know that you prefer the wires to be placed where YOU want them as it is how you do things in your shop as well as being the proper way. Consider yourself lucky you have good help. They are few are far between.
 
I don't know how this will help you, but I am so fanatical about the 1/3 measurement that I have a little calculator on my work table to make sure I am very close to that 1/3 measurment down.

I do think that a simple explanation of how it puts less stress on the corners should solve the problem.
 
I think your boy must have forgotten the "Fit and Finish" portion of his certification training. As a former "M"'s manager and trainer, I can tell you that they teach your method, not his. Perhaps his shop manager was pinching pennies and telling them to conserve wire, but that's not what they teach.

Being under pressure to pump out as much work as "M"'s framers have to, certain tasks become almost robotic and it's easy to form bad habits. Remind him that your way is the correct way by anyone's standards. It shouldn't take any longer to do it the right way, so once he has broken his bad habit, he should be just as productive as he is now, (unless you ask him to figure every measurement with a calculator.)
 
I have always placed my wire from 1/4 to 1/3rd down from the top. I have always made my wire tight between the two hanging points. The reason I do that is the wire will stretch over time.

Making it to loose could cause the wire, over time, to actually stretch enough so that it shows, along with the wall hook, above the top of the frame. Anyway, that is the way I was taught over 40 years ago. I have never had a customer complain about it. I'm old, I ain't gonna change now, I don't care what the FACTS are about this subject.

Clifton, if the fellow is doing a good job, and you want to keep him on your staff, sit him down and explain how and why you want it done. Explain to him that this is your shop, and you have always done it your way. Tell him how happy you are with the rest of his work and that you would hate to lose him over such a small matter. I'm sure that he will decide to go along with your old fashion method.

By the same token, if you could care less if he remains with your shop or not, just flat out tell him to do it your way, right or wrong, or take a hike.

Every one has their own forms of leadership, however, do not lose sight about who actually is the boss, and don't allow him to do it either.

You can be a Good guy or a dictator, it's your business,run it anyway you choose, just be sure your the one who is running it.

John
 
Wow, lots of responses here!!!

Bob is right, I didn't explain myself well on my helpers attidude.

It was the way he was taught to do it at the Michael's where he was trained. I think he is very willing to change based on my conversations.

I know that I'm the boss, but even a boss can learn and hopfully change his technique if there is a better one out there.

I don't have the experience that most of you have since I'm new to the business, 2 years. I have attended lots of classes and read all the books (hope to get my CPF).

I love to learn, this is why I spend so much time on Grumble, and look at this as just another learning curve.

Didn't mean to make anyone think he was inflexible, he's not and want to learn the right way too.

best
 
The FACTS standard calls for two hanging points and a wire angle of at least 60 degrees.

Go to the www.ARTFACTS.org site mentioned previously, and download all of the Guidelines (free), in .PDF format. You'll need the (free) Adobe Acrobat program for that, which you probably already have.

Originally posted by clifpa:
...I think he is very willing to change based on my conversations...I know that I'm the boss, but even a boss can learn and hopfully change his technique if there is a better one out there...
Click to expand...
Good attitude, Cliff. The "show him who's boss" thing can inspire resentment. On the other hand, you will earn his respect if you not only introduce him to better ways, but also prove to him WHY they are better.

That way, it's not a matter of you enforcing your own, unsupported opinion. It's a matter of you helping him improve his work on the basis of generally accepted, well documented industry standards that make sense.
 
Sorry I can not, in good conscience, agree with the FACTS definition. Remember, FACTS is a collection of information gathered from a group of frames shops in an effort to determine what the " Generally accepted framing practices" are in the industry.

Generally accepted does not necessarily mean it is right. I can remember when generally accepted mats were wood pulp paper mats. Attaching pictures to the mat with masking tape was generally accepted.

I'm not saying the FACTs attempt is not a good one, all I'm saying is it is not the Bible either.

John

[ 11-24-2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: JRB ]
 
Originally posted by JRB:
Sorry I can not, in good conscience, agree with the FACTS definition. Remember, FACTS is a collection of information gathered from a group of frames shops in an effort to determine what the " Generally accepted framing practices" are in the industry.
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Actually John, in this case at least the the FACTs definition is correct. It's not a factor of "generally accepted practices" but one of basic physics.

Interesting, you noticed the wire was stretching so you put in on tighter to counteract it and it was the tightness causing it to stretch in the first place.
The stress on the wire increases dramatically as the angle of the wire gets flatter across the back. The formula for determining the stress on the wire is: 1/2 the weight divided by the sine of the angle the wire forms off horizontal. For example:
If we have a 30 lb picture and the wire is put on tight enough that it only deflects about 5° (sine =.0872) we are putting about 172lbs of stress on the wire, 172 lbs of pull out on the screw holding the wire and about 172 lbs of pressure on our glass and mat package. Pretty brutal.
If we loosen up the wire so it deflects about 10° (.1736) we decrease the stress or tension to about 86 lbs. And if we get that angle to 40º (sine=.6428) we drop the stress on the wire to a meer 23 lbs. Big differences.

If you've been having problems with the wire stretching (and by your admission you have been) this is the reason why. Wire doesn't stretch unless it is under stress, the more stress the more it stretches. Just think of it this way ....the harder you pull on the wire the more likely it is to stretch....just like taffy.

[ 11-24-2003, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Frank Larson ]
 
The experts with their formulas, ya gotta just love em.

Frank, thank you for the obvious great deal of thought and effort you went through on my part. Your formula makes sense and I almost bought it.

Then I got to thinking, if this is a fact, why haven't customers brought back their pictures with the broken wire in the last 40 years?

I decided to go out to my garage and pick up three (3) ten pound weights. I would suggest you do the same thing. Thirty pounds is downright heavy. Myself, I think screw eyes would just rip out of that frame sooner or later, no matter how you attached your wire. In my shop we use mirror straps on the heavy stuff.

Most of our framing falls well below thirty pounds. Using those screw in hangers and stainless steel wire that is rated about three to four times the weight of the picture being hung, will somehow hang pretty much any picture, no matter how tight or loose you put the wire.

Again, I thank you for your well thought out response, and I agree, it does make sense.

Then there is a thing called common sense. A five pound picture with thirty pound stainless steel wire attached to screw in hangers is not going to break, period.

I like a tight wire, I like how it looks, I like how the picture hangs.

John
 
In one of Paul Frederick’s “Answer” books he suggest 1/3 down from the top and “slack” wire bent approximately 1/2 from the screw eyes to the top of the frame.

Loose wire will lower the center of gravity of the frame and not only reduce the forward tippyness (?) but tight wire, I think, tends to “skate” along the hanger and make the frame less likely to hang horizontally on the wall.

For medium sized frames weight is usually not an issue with the 30 lb wire most of us use.
 
Originally posted by JRB:
...Then I got to thinking, if this is a fact, why haven't customers brought back their pictures with the broken wire in the last 40 years?...
I like a tight wire, I like how it looks, I like how the picture hangs. John
Click to expand...
It's physics, but it's common sense, too. Your stated opinion doesn't benefit either way.

Stress is measured on the wire because it is convenient to measure it there. But that doesn't necessarily mean the wire is the weakest point. The wire is just one part of the hanging assembly; consider also the wire's terminations, and the wood frame rails. Maybe something else will give.

The gravitational stress of hanging is constant, and has cumulative effects. Of all the parts involved, the wood is most likely to suffer from constant stress damage over time.

A looser wire, hanging at 60 degrees (the FACTS Guideline's suggestion) pulls more vertically on the vertical rails, reducing stress. Of course, hanging from D-rings or WallBuddies (without wire) is even better in tersm of stress.

A tight wire pulls more horizontally on the vertical rails, causing more stress on the wood. It can warp over time, and the mitered corners, under greater stress, will break loose sooner.

The amount of hanging stress on all parts is directly affected by the wire angle. And as usual, hanging stress is not an all-or-nothing matter. It's a matter of degree; a matter of slow, gradual, cumulative damage.

To put it another way, it's a matter of doing it the best way, or the OK way, or the worst way. Every framer chooses, but many framers prefer to base their choices on FACTS.
 
You guys keep it up with all this logic stuff, your going to convince me to change, maybe you already have.

A few last thoughts though, If the wire stretches from the weight of the picture, will it not reach the desired looseness on it's own? If you start out with a loose wire, won't it eventually stretch to the point of being too loose? That is the reason I was taught years ago to make it tight.

John
 
Originally posted by JRB:
...If the wire stretches from the weight of the picture, will it not reach the desired looseness on it's own? If you start out with a loose wire, won't it eventually stretch to the point of being too loose?
Click to expand...
Wire stretching is not the big issue, John. If it were, then we'd just use bigger, fatter, stronger wire that wouldn't stretch.

Stress on the frame is the big issue. Using two hanging points, with at least a 60-degree wire angle from horizontal, is the big answer.

If you use the two-point, 60-degree hanging pattern recommended by FACTS, then the stress will be less, and the wire will not stretch as much as if you use one hanging point -- no matter how long the wire is.

Better still, the frame & its hardware will suffer less stress.
 
If the frame and glass weigh more than a pound or two, I'm using WallBuddies.

They don't stretch and you never have to agonize over where to put them.
 
I don't measure hangers or wire for placement. I place the d-rings on the back, where I think they should go, then measure to even them up. I pull the wire to where I think it should be, and wrap it there. I'd be willing to bet anything they wind up about where they are "supposed" to be.


As far as employees doing things "my way". I show them my way, but sometimes they find another way more to their liking. As long as it doesn't affect the finished product, and proper methods are not ignored, I let them do things "their way".
 
Originally posted by JRB:
The experts with their formulas, ya gotta just love em.
Click to expand...
I have a feeling this is said in the same dismissive tone of voice I use when I call someone an educated idiot, and to tell you the truth it kind of ticks me off. I actually gave the formula so that you and others could plug in the numbers yourselves and maybe come to the same conclusions as I did. Silly me...why would you waste your time doing that. Maybe if I tell you why and how I came to the conclusions I did it would make more sense to you.

I started wondering about wire stress when I was still hanging with one hook. If the wire was tight across the back I noticed it had a tendency to twang at a higher pitch than if it was loose. I knew from fooling around with a guitar (I don't play) that the tighter the wire is the more likely it is to break when plucking it (much to the disgust of my brother-in-law). Stood to reason that tighter was not good on the back of a frame. Several years ago I was to give a seminar on installations. I was going to share this info but I thought I would need some scientific explanation. I knew from my one quarter of Physics (I got a 'D') that it had something to do with forces and vectoring and trig and all that crap so I went to the depository of knowledge, the local library, and dug out 3-4 physics textbooks and started reading. Fortunately after a couple of confused hours I tripped across an example in one of the books that was about finding the stress on the wire on the back of a picture frame! It had pictures and everything! I had the solution!!!

Of course now I had to present it to a bunch of picture framers and let's face it, physics is dull. Very dull. It's "Oh my God, I can't keep my eyes open" dull! (hence the 'D' in Physics 101) So I had to come up with a demo.

I went to a local store that had some "scientific" apparatus for sale and they had a thing they called a "spring balance" which is basically a weight scales. You hold one end up and put whatever you want to weigh on the other end and it shows the weight on an indicator, unfortunately it's metric but that's easily converted. I bought several. They were perfect for what I wanted, only 4-5 inches long and cheap...only about $6 each. So now I was armed for my seminar.

I started the seminar with the fancy formula and why it worked and why it was important and when I turned around I saw what I expected....dull glazed eyes looking back at me or in some cases the ceiling. So I whipped out my new demo....A 30" square frame package and my fancy new spring balances. I attached one balance end to a D ring on the frame and the other to a wire attached to the other D ring. I used another balance to hang the frame from. Doing this I was able to demonstrate that as I loosened the wire the pull (stress) on the wire lessened (the frame's scale kept decreasing) even though the weight of the frame didn't change. I had an attendee read the scale and it was interesting how his tone of voice changed from disbelief to astonishment as he read off the numbers. What really made the room buzz was when I held the now loose wire with my 2 index fingers then pulled my hands apart sliding my fingers on the wire (like I was using 2 hooks). That changed the angle of the wire causing the indicator to move. I could move my hands back an forth and you could see the indicator move up and down as the stress increased and decreased. Totally convinced the audience...and me.


So, John, after doing the research, after doing the experiment, after proving it to myself and others I can in all confidence state:

John, you are completely...totally....wrong.

Have a nice Thanksgiving!
Frank

[ 11-26-2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Frank Larson ]
 
You guys keep it up with all this logic stuff, your going to convince me to change, maybe you already have.
Click to expand...
Happy Thanksgiving Frank!

guess I better put one of these in


[ 11-26-2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]
 
I had look at this topic to see why it was going on so long...I thought it was a simple cut and dry thing. Wrong I was.

So, after meeting Jim in Atlanta and hearing his class I will say listen to the man. He wants us all to be better and more informed with the choices we make. He is not trying to say do it my way. It is the opposite...see what I learned , it is here for you to learn from like I did.

If you don't believe what they say fine, but don't disagree if you won't come back with some kind of support. That does not help anyone. For me this is a site to learn, not to put people down for offering their knowledge.
d
 
Happy Thanksgiving Grumblers.

Forget the picture wire, how do I carve a turkey? (Somehow I bet that Frank knows...) :D

[ 11-27-2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Art On Canvas ]
 
Cliffton,

Please don't fire your new employee. Very soon the issue you are quarreling about will be in no relevance to framing.
-----------------------------------
Then, gradually try the same test at greater distances and you will see much Less stress is placed on the hardware, wire, and frame.
Click to expand...
Less you are already on our side of the barricades.
----------------------------------------
I am so fanatical about the 1/3 measurement that I have a little calculator on my work table to make sure I am very close to that 1/3 measurement down.
Click to expand...
MatFramer, throw away your calculator and join the revolution!
------------------------------------------
John, your hardworking and tied fingers will finally relax!
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Stress on the frame is the big issue. Using two hanging points, with at least a 60-degree wire angle from horizontal, is the big answer.
Click to expand...
Jim, you got the point. I hope that you would agree with me that when time comes, standards should be revised to reflect the current state of technology.
-----------------------------------------
Frank, I've been always fascinated with your ability to speak to the question.
------------------------------------------

Happy Thanksgiving to all Grumblers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Framing industry has been primed for a revolution!
I CAN HEAR-IT'S COMING... :cool:

Bork
 
Frank, you are right, I was being a wise *** with my opening comment, " ya gotta just love em. " I realized that you were correct as I wrote my thoughts.

Between you and Jim, you guys have me convinced you are correct. I am not so sure that I am totally wrong either. After all these years you would think that I would have had at least one picture come back with a broken wire or a popped miter.

The only time I have had a popped miter is when I was using Thumbnails to join frames. I always blamed the Thumbnails but after your explanation I think the wire may have been a contributer.

I still blame the Thumbnails for being such weak pieces of plastic, never has happened with nails,V nails, or hoffmann joins.

Anyway, have a good turkey day.

John
 
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