Kirstie
PFG, Picture Framing God
Do any of you do wholesale framing for other shops, furniture stores, book stores, etc.? How do you solicit them or do they approach you? Just wondering. This is an area I would like to expand.
Wholesale Framing
- Thread starter Kirstie
- Start date
I used to do a lot more of that than I do now, and I do not miss it. In my limited experience, resale framing is generally very competitive and fraught with headaches. You may be pinched to get jobs done sooner than promised; you may get paid late or not at all (especially when they're ready to dump you); you may be expected to replace mat colors or other features because there was a non-framer between you and the end user, who either told you wrong or made promises you didn't know about; you may be expected to repair handling damage caused by others...on and on it goes.
One gallery owner had a nasty habit of telling his customers that his framer (me) always framed everything to the highest standards. Then he would tell me the art has no significant value, and to frame it as cheaply as possible. I never ruined anything, but I did cut corners at his insistence. His ruse was exposed when we started putting preservation information on our dustcover labels. When he insisted we stop putting on those "ugly stickers", I got suspicious.
There will always be a framer who will promise a lower price and better service, and there will always be a resale framing customer who will believe it, so customer loyalty is out the window. Most of the resale framing relationships I've had have been short-lived.
On the other hand, if price is not the main issue (rarely the case), and if you can offer products and services not otherwise available to the resale framing buyer, then you may have the makings of a good and profitable long-term business relationship. I still have a few of those.
If you are looking for big sales numbers, I suggest that is the wrong goal. The cash may flow and fairly swirl around you, but if few of those dollars drop into your pocket, it is a waste of your time and resources.
Look instead for big profit numbers. These days I build fewer frames and make more net profit.
One gallery owner had a nasty habit of telling his customers that his framer (me) always framed everything to the highest standards. Then he would tell me the art has no significant value, and to frame it as cheaply as possible. I never ruined anything, but I did cut corners at his insistence. His ruse was exposed when we started putting preservation information on our dustcover labels. When he insisted we stop putting on those "ugly stickers", I got suspicious.
There will always be a framer who will promise a lower price and better service, and there will always be a resale framing customer who will believe it, so customer loyalty is out the window. Most of the resale framing relationships I've had have been short-lived.
On the other hand, if price is not the main issue (rarely the case), and if you can offer products and services not otherwise available to the resale framing buyer, then you may have the makings of a good and profitable long-term business relationship. I still have a few of those.
If you are looking for big sales numbers, I suggest that is the wrong goal. The cash may flow and fairly swirl around you, but if few of those dollars drop into your pocket, it is a waste of your time and resources.
Look instead for big profit numbers. These days I build fewer frames and make more net profit.
Paul N
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I agree with Jim.
I frame quite a few things for a major designer in town. I don't make much profit on those (they ALWAYS want them done as cheaply as possible to resell them at maybe triple margin).
But: She always uses 2 specific frames and 3 specific mats, so I know how to stock those. AND, the main reason I give big discount to such framing: I get a very decent amount of customers from her which more than makes up for the discount she gets.
But again, the amount of profit from such jobs is quite negligible.
I frame quite a few things for a major designer in town. I don't make much profit on those (they ALWAYS want them done as cheaply as possible to resell them at maybe triple margin).
But: She always uses 2 specific frames and 3 specific mats, so I know how to stock those. AND, the main reason I give big discount to such framing: I get a very decent amount of customers from her which more than makes up for the discount she gets.
But again, the amount of profit from such jobs is quite negligible.
artfolio
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
O.K. here is my take on wholesale work.
Unless you are geared up for mass production it is a waste of your time and resources. As a one-man show I can only make so many frames in a week so I want maximum profit for each job. I won't spend a week making a hundred frames for only a bit more than the value of the materials when I could be doing profitable work.
If you want the maths, take a look at your profit & Loss figures. In my case, roughly 30% of my turnover finishes up in my pocket as wages or profit. In other words, if I give away a 20% discount it costs me two thirds of my profit from that job. If I give away any more than 30% I am losing money and that is not why I am in business. That principal can be applied to every business. You cannot discount by more than your nett profit percentage and make money doing it. Sure, there may be some efficiency involved and a (very) small discount on bulk-purchased materials but not enough to offset the money you throw away by discounting.
The people who chase these jobs and work for peanuts do us all a disservice by lowering the value of our product in the minds of the consumers.
Unless you are geared up for mass production it is a waste of your time and resources. As a one-man show I can only make so many frames in a week so I want maximum profit for each job. I won't spend a week making a hundred frames for only a bit more than the value of the materials when I could be doing profitable work.
If you want the maths, take a look at your profit & Loss figures. In my case, roughly 30% of my turnover finishes up in my pocket as wages or profit. In other words, if I give away a 20% discount it costs me two thirds of my profit from that job. If I give away any more than 30% I am losing money and that is not why I am in business. That principal can be applied to every business. You cannot discount by more than your nett profit percentage and make money doing it. Sure, there may be some efficiency involved and a (very) small discount on bulk-purchased materials but not enough to offset the money you throw away by discounting.
The people who chase these jobs and work for peanuts do us all a disservice by lowering the value of our product in the minds of the consumers.
kenmccann
True Grumbler
I just did a bid for 80 3 1/2 x 5 1/2 oak frames. I quoted close to $6 each depending on which oak they picked out.
Their response..." OH, we have been paying $1.50 per frame, but were hoping to find them cheaper.
Ken
Their response..." OH, we have been paying $1.50 per frame, but were hoping to find them cheaper.
Ken
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 17,182
I think this is another "perspective" question
If you are a one person shop like artfolio, then it's probably not wise if capacity i snot an isue.
If you have employees and need to fill in some peaks and valleys, it might be wise
We do it, but exercise great discretion.
We have a few clients that we do project-based jobs; often limited designs, often the same mldg. We can buy exceptionally well, offr great savings and make a few shekels. We view it like a cruise line selling those last few cabins at reduced rates
W e do turn down, all the time, the person that is purely shopping a 15 piece order, each totally different. Done a few, but not worth the interruption or headache. The keys to this "to be avoided" project centers more on the person; they tend to act like they are quite important an dthey are doing us a huge favor with this $2000 job
I suspect they are looking for a new framer because the last one asked them not to come back
The advantages can be favorable with a good arrangement; pick and choose carefully
Kirstie-you are a smart enough operator to know if the deal is good or not. Never be afraid to "Just Say No"
If you are a one person shop like artfolio, then it's probably not wise if capacity i snot an isue.
If you have employees and need to fill in some peaks and valleys, it might be wise
We do it, but exercise great discretion.
We have a few clients that we do project-based jobs; often limited designs, often the same mldg. We can buy exceptionally well, offr great savings and make a few shekels. We view it like a cruise line selling those last few cabins at reduced rates
W e do turn down, all the time, the person that is purely shopping a 15 piece order, each totally different. Done a few, but not worth the interruption or headache. The keys to this "to be avoided" project centers more on the person; they tend to act like they are quite important an dthey are doing us a huge favor with this $2000 job
I suspect they are looking for a new framer because the last one asked them not to come back
The advantages can be favorable with a good arrangement; pick and choose carefully
Kirstie-you are a smart enough operator to know if the deal is good or not. Never be afraid to "Just Say No"
Kirstie
PFG, Picture Framing God
We have done jobs like those over the years, have recently cut one photo store out, and now have just one delightful furniture store for whom we frame about 10-15 pieces per month in one moulding, using saved designs on the CMC. My DIY staff do the job during down time, I deliver, and we are all happy. But this furniture store is rare. He is easy on due dates, pays on delivery, and just happens to sell a nice steady flow of art.
We had another furniture store once, for whom we framed mirrors, but I guess they were not hot sellers, and a book store who also must not have sold what we framed becaue they tapered off.
I'm not looking for designers or more photo enlargement shops. Wholesale mounting is the worst. I've learned my lesson there and will only do this type of work for established businesses who can actually turn the merchandise and are good to work with. I just wondered if anyone had any good tips for types of business who could bring in a tidy profit for framers.
We had another furniture store once, for whom we framed mirrors, but I guess they were not hot sellers, and a book store who also must not have sold what we framed becaue they tapered off.
I'm not looking for designers or more photo enlargement shops. Wholesale mounting is the worst. I've learned my lesson there and will only do this type of work for established businesses who can actually turn the merchandise and are good to work with. I just wondered if anyone had any good tips for types of business who could bring in a tidy profit for framers.
Candy
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I have not had good experience with this either.
The first one that comes to mind was a simple mat, simple mount, foam board, paper easel (from United that was a stick on) all shrinkwrapped. We agreed to something really cheap like 10 for $50. I kept all supplies on hand and we did 3 or 4 orders of 10 pieces with promises of more to come. I needed to reorder the easels and mat boards, so I did. Six years later, I still have that order of easels sitting around somewhere. He decided to go somewhere else and forgot to mention it to me. It's a good thing I didn't have moulding and glass tied up in that deal.
The next one that comes to mind was an artist that wanted mats. drymounts and shrinkwrapped. I was using PMA for the photography because he didn't like the orange peel and I was the only one he had ever seen that didn't have that problem. We did a fairly large order for him, around 50 pieces. He needed it very quickly, like 2 days, I think it was. There were promises of a lot more of this because he did art shows and if we did a good job, he would be back. There were to be absolutely no overcuts either.
Long story short, he kept asking what we were using for the photography dry mounts and how did we get such perfect mats? He ended up going to the local framing distributor and got all the information from them after he pumped and pumped for information. Apparently, as I tried to avoid giving away my secrets, he got enough information to get the product and do it himself.
The 3rd one was a promise of about 300 pieces over a 2 year period. I gave great prices, great service, went to many meetings and helped promote the project. Eight years later, I think I have done about 30 pieces. The last one is still sitting in my shop from last fall. It has been paid for, but never picked up. The first order was for 10 pieces, after that it was 2 here, 1 there, maybe 3. In helping to promote the project, I even did one for display. They sold that one and it took me 2 years to get paid for it.
I like the idea that I once heard about............3 price lists under the counter, 1 for regular customers, 1 for those who want the big discounts, and 1 for family and friends. The last two were priced high enough to be able to give a discount and still make a profit.
The first one that comes to mind was a simple mat, simple mount, foam board, paper easel (from United that was a stick on) all shrinkwrapped. We agreed to something really cheap like 10 for $50. I kept all supplies on hand and we did 3 or 4 orders of 10 pieces with promises of more to come. I needed to reorder the easels and mat boards, so I did. Six years later, I still have that order of easels sitting around somewhere. He decided to go somewhere else and forgot to mention it to me. It's a good thing I didn't have moulding and glass tied up in that deal.
The next one that comes to mind was an artist that wanted mats. drymounts and shrinkwrapped. I was using PMA for the photography because he didn't like the orange peel and I was the only one he had ever seen that didn't have that problem. We did a fairly large order for him, around 50 pieces. He needed it very quickly, like 2 days, I think it was. There were promises of a lot more of this because he did art shows and if we did a good job, he would be back. There were to be absolutely no overcuts either.
Long story short, he kept asking what we were using for the photography dry mounts and how did we get such perfect mats? He ended up going to the local framing distributor and got all the information from them after he pumped and pumped for information. Apparently, as I tried to avoid giving away my secrets, he got enough information to get the product and do it himself.
The 3rd one was a promise of about 300 pieces over a 2 year period. I gave great prices, great service, went to many meetings and helped promote the project. Eight years later, I think I have done about 30 pieces. The last one is still sitting in my shop from last fall. It has been paid for, but never picked up. The first order was for 10 pieces, after that it was 2 here, 1 there, maybe 3. In helping to promote the project, I even did one for display. They sold that one and it took me 2 years to get paid for it.
I like the idea that I once heard about............3 price lists under the counter, 1 for regular customers, 1 for those who want the big discounts, and 1 for family and friends. The last two were priced high enough to be able to give a discount and still make a profit.
Jerry Ervin
PFG, Picture Framing God
Once upon a time I did a lot of framing for quite a few furniture stores. They were all Mom and Pop type businesses like ours.
Today they are all gone. Poof. None of them survived the 'Rooms To Go' and "Ashely Furniture' wave of $400 couches and $50 end tables.
I never made tons of money off of the accounts, but what it did do was keep my purchase volume up allowing me to have better buying power on all the other stuff I bought.
Looking back on my experiences, I would not pursue that kind of work. However, if it walks in the door and they are willing to pay up front. I would bid on it again.
Today they are all gone. Poof. None of them survived the 'Rooms To Go' and "Ashely Furniture' wave of $400 couches and $50 end tables.
I never made tons of money off of the accounts, but what it did do was keep my purchase volume up allowing me to have better buying power on all the other stuff I bought.
Looking back on my experiences, I would not pursue that kind of work. However, if it walks in the door and they are willing to pay up front. I would bid on it again.
Greg Gomon
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Sage advice from everyone. I have learned all these lessons and more over the past 16 years. Interestingly enough, I still re-learn the same lessons because I tend to think well of my fellow man. Everyone gets treated the same, but burn me once and you are history as far as I am concerned.
There are a few buzz words that send up red flags and tend to come out during my initial conversation with a prospective "big" customer.
1.Promises of future orders (key for you will never see me again). I balance this one with "the orders will get progressively less expensive as the orders come in."
2. I want a quote on 25 pieces, 50 pieces, 100 pieces. Better assume they are all different i.e., custom. Better assume they will bring in a couple at a time.
3. Never take "Net Terms" We require 50% down when the order is placed, balance upon delivery, NO Exceptions.
There are a few buzz words that send up red flags and tend to come out during my initial conversation with a prospective "big" customer.
1.Promises of future orders (key for you will never see me again). I balance this one with "the orders will get progressively less expensive as the orders come in."
2. I want a quote on 25 pieces, 50 pieces, 100 pieces. Better assume they are all different i.e., custom. Better assume they will bring in a couple at a time.
3. Never take "Net Terms" We require 50% down when the order is placed, balance upon delivery, NO Exceptions.
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Two benefits that arise from this type of activity besides some profit ...albeit with slimmer profit margins:
1.) Contribution to overhead. A rough formula handed out on a prior thread said 1/3 COGS, 1/3 Overhead and 1/3 Profit. If you carve out most of the profit you still have a contribution to overhead which is essential during down times.
2.) Increased purchases from suppliers may afford better pricing from a vendor increasing the profitability on regular business.
However, as Greg stated, payment is paramount to operating on slim margins.
1.) Contribution to overhead. A rough formula handed out on a prior thread said 1/3 COGS, 1/3 Overhead and 1/3 Profit. If you carve out most of the profit you still have a contribution to overhead which is essential during down times.
2.) Increased purchases from suppliers may afford better pricing from a vendor increasing the profitability on regular business.
However, as Greg stated, payment is paramount to operating on slim margins.
surferbill
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
A couple of years ago, I invested in a seperate 2000 sq ft work shop, new
Cassess, new large vacumn press, double miter saw, Wizard, etc. in the
hopes of doing a lot of volume framing. It has worked out because about
once every month or so, a designer will give me an order for about 100-150
framed pieces that must be done in a short time period. I would never have
been able to do them in my small retail location. I think the profit generated
from these jobs pays for most of my overhead on both locations.
Bill
Ocean Art
Cassess, new large vacumn press, double miter saw, Wizard, etc. in the
hopes of doing a lot of volume framing. It has worked out because about
once every month or so, a designer will give me an order for about 100-150
framed pieces that must be done in a short time period. I would never have
been able to do them in my small retail location. I think the profit generated
from these jobs pays for most of my overhead on both locations.
Bill
Ocean Art
Kirstie
PFG, Picture Framing God
Surferbill, so how do you get such good designers who acutally place volume orders? Word of mouth, cold calls, advertising?
surferbill
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Kirstie,
It took me appr. 2 yrs of doing small jobs for this customer, before they
would give me the big jobs. I did some installing of work they had bought out
of town, glass replacements, etc. anything that would get my foot in the
door. Now it has paid off with some very nice jobs every few months. During
the Christmas rush, they hit me with a huge job, that almost worked me to
death, but I rewarded myself after it was installed with a 2 week vacation to
Costa Rica in January.
Bill
Ocean Art
It took me appr. 2 yrs of doing small jobs for this customer, before they
would give me the big jobs. I did some installing of work they had bought out
of town, glass replacements, etc. anything that would get my foot in the
door. Now it has paid off with some very nice jobs every few months. During
the Christmas rush, they hit me with a huge job, that almost worked me to
death, but I rewarded myself after it was installed with a 2 week vacation to
Costa Rica in January.
Bill
Ocean Art
Don
Grumbler
I actually did a search for saws and come up with this as one of the threads to look through. As to how to find these kind of customers I would like to know myself However about 6 years back (when everyone on the grumble was grumbling about no custumers) I come across a wholesale type account that seemed to be promising. At that time I posted on the grumble asking advice on where some good places would be to buy discount moulding. Never did I get one answer to my question but received much advice on why I shouldn't compete in this market. I sure could of used any help that the combined knowledge of this forum has.
6 Years later this one account is now up to anywheres from 300 - 500 frames a month. At an average profit of $5.00 (which I know does not sound like a lot) turns out to be $1500-$2500. Provides a nice little extra income. I have a couple of college kids in doing most of the work. All I have is some extra management responsabilities. The business is now up to 10 locations with plans of opening 2-3 per year from here on out. They pay me Net30 FOB.
I think its is good to give ones personal advice on this forum especially when it comes through years of experience but certainly somebody out there has some information that could help this individual out.
I'm in a situation that this info. would be useful to me before this one account takes over my whole framing operation. It's not good to rely on one account for your whole business.
Don
6 Years later this one account is now up to anywheres from 300 - 500 frames a month. At an average profit of $5.00 (which I know does not sound like a lot) turns out to be $1500-$2500. Provides a nice little extra income. I have a couple of college kids in doing most of the work. All I have is some extra management responsabilities. The business is now up to 10 locations with plans of opening 2-3 per year from here on out. They pay me Net30 FOB.
I think its is good to give ones personal advice on this forum especially when it comes through years of experience but certainly somebody out there has some information that could help this individual out.
I'm in a situation that this info. would be useful to me before this one account takes over my whole framing operation. It's not good to rely on one account for your whole business.
Don
surferbill
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
There is a good book about going after bigger customers called "Bag the
Elephant". It's not about picture framing, but talks about the mind set you
need to go after this type of large customer. My goal was to try to get one
new designer every 6-9 months, but I have been so busy with other things, I
have not pursued it. I don't think there is a magic formula to get this type of
business, just luck, hard work, and being in the right place at the right time.
Bill
Ocean Art
Elephant". It's not about picture framing, but talks about the mind set you
need to go after this type of large customer. My goal was to try to get one
new designer every 6-9 months, but I have been so busy with other things, I
have not pursued it. I don't think there is a magic formula to get this type of
business, just luck, hard work, and being in the right place at the right time.
Bill
Ocean Art