Where do you draw the line?

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Sherry Lee

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
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Phoenix, Az.
I have been asked to work up a large order using metal frames (ugh). Anything up to 72ui, the customer wants to use GLASS with OEM #15 profile. These metals are NOT stable! I personally think it's scarey to use it on a 32x40. At what point do you switch to plexi?

Then, she wants the oversized in OEM #25 (not much difference from the #15 in terms of support) using plexi. One is 40" x 60"!!

I have to TRANSPORT all this stuff! All I see is wabbly written all over it!

And....how many extra security hangers do you use for a 32x40 and up?

Am I being overly concerned?? I just don't see much support for these larger pictures and wondered what you thought.

Thanks much!
 
Dear Sherry/Grasshopper,

I like acrylic for bigger than 30x40, but can sometimes be talked into glass up to 36x48.

I recently did a 55-1/2"x66" in a metal frame (Nielsen profile 117 which, BTW, is the same price as #15 and a LOT beefier) and I used 1/4" Cyro Acrylite FF. That puppy was still pretty heavy.

For larger metal frames, whether fitted with glass or plexi, there is a neat product by Albin (you can get it from United) that consists of special hardware and either straps or a rigid channel to keep the long metal rails from bowing.

In lieu of that, you can put a couple of extra hangers in the channel, string some wire across them tightly and, if needed, slide one or both hangers in the channel until the wire is as tight as it needs to be.

(The Albin system is prettier, so you can charge more for it.)
 
Before I even started this project I would express my concerns to the artist, and get them to sign something that makes sure that when these frames fail you will not be held responsible.
Do the Lawrence of Arabia trick. Take a 40" length of the OEM 15 and bend the ends so they touch. I don't like OEM on anything over 24 x 30, and the arcylic 40x60's are doomed.

If the artist won't budge, I would suggest that they find some other framer to do the work. These mouldings are not designed to be used as frames of this scale.

Wow, and I was typing as fast as I could.
Uh, Bob, could you elaborate?
What Ron said, but only with name brand moulding, not OEM.

Another thought is to CYA by bidding this so high you can upgrade the framing.

[ 06-13-2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: wpfay ]
 
Hey Bob!

Are you bidding the same job??


Stranger things have happened!
 
Hi Sherry-Your client was asking for something moderately priced and you provided it. I think we often are guilty of "Framer's Bias", you know we don't like metal, so we come up with excuses on why it won't work.

But, install some of Jim Miller's world famous Wall Buddies and they will hang nicely.

If you are worried about "wabbly", glass is so much more stable than acrylic.

But, I'll bet you will see responses from corner braces to hanging straps to extra foamcore (all more expensive and really not necessary). We have plenty of stuff on our walls in metal and we just don't have any problem with it.

But, we aren't afraid to sell it either
 
As Bob would say... that dog just don't fly!! As I posted on the HH, I use the stuff all the time and have no problems. Add support wires on the back and they don't bow. Glass is also no problem with these frames for me. I suspect your problem is not having the support wires and that allows the frame to bow. As for bending the frame, that's just stupid. I can do the same example with wood. I can bend it until it breaks and then say that it isn't strong enough! No one ever uses these frames in such a way that these examples carry any weight in an arguement. Learn how to work with the stuff and it is no problem. :rolleyes:
 
To my New England friend, it's "That dog won't hunt" as in, if a dog won't/can't hunt what the heck is it good for? It's pigs that fly...

But, back to Sherry's problem, I agree, we use it all the time for projects exactly as she has presently.

As a PS, nope, we aren't bidding on this project. But, if I were, it would probably sell for less than $50 each.
 
Sorry Bob, I need to clarify. I said I've been asked to "work up" a large order. The customer has written me her specs, but I will come back with recommendations. That is why I'm asking these questions because I'm not comfortable with what I think are some "low end, risky" requests on the order. Thus my question about being concerned.

Thus far, I've had great feedback on this question and have learned a lot about the limits framers set for themselves....they're all over the place :eek:
 
I agreee with Bob, there should not be any problems with using OEM or glass, we do it all of the time up to 40 x 60 and have not had any problems as long as the customer does not try to "modify" our work.

As long as you do not use wire to hang the pictures you should be fine, it is when wire is used that the frame tends to bow.

For those who do not use metal...why are you sending business to your competitors????
 
Just for the record, Less will keep his mouth shut...where's my Unseal?
 
I won't use glass on any metal 15 profile larger than 24 x 36, maybe a smidgen larger, like one inch in either direction. After that, they have to use a sturdier frame. Maybe some of you haven't had problems with anything larger because someone else, like me, is always fixing them (the broken glass). Almost never does anything with broken glass come through my door that is not in a metal frame, framed by someone else. The repair is not guarateed if they choose glass again or use the same frame.
 
Pam-No argument that we would all rather frame a more expensive frame for any and all projects. But, I have to tell you, like framah and Tim, we just don't see the problem.

Could you tell us why the glass breaks in a metal frame once the art is hung on the wall?

If the client specs out such a specific product, we have no problem supplying her needs. If we don't, like Tim correctly states, our competitor will.

How much extra would most of you have to charge your client to supply acrylic?
 
I suspect a lot of the problems with large metal frames occur while they are being transported by the customer, not while they are hanging on the wall. (Most of my orders are picked up and hung by the client, not delivered and hung by me.)

Somebody taps the frame on the sidewalk, perhaps while unlocking the house. There isn't much cushioning from a metal frame and a small glass fracture - perhaps an invisible one - develops and continues to grow until somebody notices it. Or somebody picks up the frame by the middle of the top rail and the glass pops out. An Albin strap or some taut wire will help with that, even if it isn't necessary once the frame is hung.

Sherry can avoid some of those pitfalls by delivering and hanging the frames herself. She just needs to figure out what works and what to charge, and I think that's what she's doing here.

My own reservations about large glass have little to do with metal frames or wood frames. I'm just not crazy about wrestling with 40x60 glass in my shop and, if it does break while it's in the frame, there's a real probability of either the art or a person (or both) getting injured.

BTW, I happen to LOVE metal frames - especially some of the new profiles and finishes. I think I've converted more than a couple of customers who've never seen anything other than gold, silver or black kit frames. With regard to strength and stability, we sometimes forget that those come from the channel in the back, not from the skinny little lip in the front. I believe that the OEM metals DO have thinner walls, and won't be as strong as the "regular" metals.

[ 06-14-2003, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 
Somebody taps the frame on the sidewalk, perhaps while unlocking the house. There isn't much cushioning from a metal frame and a small glass fracture
Click to expand...
Ron:
I've started using a product called 'Glassguard'
(a thin plastic channel) around the glass, on any piece over 20x24. Its a small added cost for a lot of piece of mind.
Ben
 
Good idea, Ben. I think that comes from Greg Fremstad and FrameTek. We talked about it when we were debating how snug the filler should be in a metal frame, and I've been meaning to order some and try it out.
 
Bob... well don't that just make me nummer than a hake!!
 
Well, shoot framah, it sure enough does....(What the heck is he talking about?)
 
Ron--Your post said you used Cyro Acrylite FF 1/4"--I've been using 1/8" (.118). Should I be using 1/4" acrylic?

I charge $70.00 clear to $120.00 NG (or whatever I can get) for larger than 40x60.
 
I was just pointing out I do have size limitations, like Wally. I also agree larger work in skinny frames are not stable. Thin metal frames have more torque and are easier to flex than something wider. Some framers try to cram too much into these frames-too many mats, too thick a mounting board-whatever, too keep the price down. What happens is the customers ends up paying twice when something has to be fixed. It frustrates me, because if it were done right in the beginning, chances are, it would never have to be repaired. If the frame makes it home, and on the wall, who's to stay it will be there forever? All I know is, I fix alot of broken glass in metal frames.
 
Don, I used the 1/4" 'cause that's what my local vendor (a plastics supply house) had available bigger than 48x96. I paid $80 for a piece cut to size (55-1/2x66) and I was pleased with the way it handled. The finished frame took two of us to move any distance and to hang, but at least I know it will take considerable abuse (from grandchildren, in this case.) I had plenty of depth in the Nielsen 117 profile, which also has a wider-than-normal lip - a plus for acrylic.

Maybe it was overkill, but I won't have to redo the job in my lifetime.
 
Thanks, Ron. I missed the O.S. dimensions of your first post. That makes good sense.
 
Ron is correct, most of the problems with broken glass do come from the customer transporting it. Forcing it into a car not big enough, "setting" it on the sidewalk, carrying or lifting by one rail.

We tell the customer what will happen when you do the above things, we also put a sticker on the back of large pieces that should not hang by wire stating that they should not because of the risk of glass breaking. I would say that 90% of the pictures that have that sticker on the back which have broken glass also have a wire on them that the customer put on there. Some even tear the sticker off and say it was not there (you can tell by the rough finish on the foamcore)

Education is key in keeping glass from breaking, tell your customer how to handle the picture and if their car isn't big enough, deliver it for them, it's that simple.

Let's say that you could frame 15 movie posters (reprints, not originals, we won't get into that discussion again
) a week. Those posters are about 24 x 41, let's charge 69.95 for a OEM metal frame with glass and mounting. For those who are not going to do it because it's too big for glass or you don't do OEM frames...You are passing up $1049.25 a week or over $54K a year and a job like that takes 20 minutes including cutting the frame.

That' how much business you are giving your competitors. I wish you were in Des Moines!
 
For those of you that would like more information re: "Glassguard" or a new type of metal security hanger, contact Greg Fremstad @ Frame Tek,Inc. 1-800-227-9934.
 
....(What the heck is he talking about?)
Click to expand...
Sorry, Bob, my universal translator has been down for a couple of days. I am unable to comprehend any transmissions from east of Akron or south of Springfield, Il.

I'm still okay with Phoenix.
 
Ron,

I, for one, am relieved that your transmission remains intact with Phoenix!

By the way, did "Grasshopper" happen to come from the fact that we, in Phoenix, are supposed to be drowning in Grasshoppers? Some reporters say they are crickets. I've seen just one of these creatures recently - happened to be this morning and it WAS a Grasshopper! At least they are quiet. Crickets can drive a person to drink! :eek:
 
Ok... Here's what it means. A hake is some kind of fish up here. Apparently, if you are nummer than a hake, you are pretty stupid. Nummer being dumber. Dumber than a fish. So dumb, it don't hunt or fly!!
Another one... The frame was so heavy, it took two of us to horse it into the house.
My favorite... She sure is some wicked fat!!

Did you know the toothbrush was invented in downeast Maine?? If it had been anywhere else, it would have been called a teethbrush!
:eek:
 
And this is from someone originally from New Jersey where they justchanged their license plates from "Garden State" to "Landfill of Opportunity."
 
Originally posted by Sherry Lee:
I think it's scary to use glass on a 32x40. At what point do you switch to plexi?

I have to TRANSPORT all this stuff! All I see is wabbly written all over it!

And....how many extra security hangers do you use for a 32x40 and up?
Click to expand...
OK, back to the original subject....

Typically I use up to 36x48 glass before switching to plexi and lately I've even been using 40x60 in heftier wood frames without any problems. The 40x60 I get is actually thicker and stronger than the smaller sizes so I haven't really been worried about it. Something I've been doing lately is taping the package together before putting it into the metal frame. I find it's easier to handle and the tape pads the glass a little so you don't get that horrible scraping sound when the piece flexes a little. My breakage has gone down too. Of course it's a bitch to change the mats or glass later but it's worth it to me.
One thing I've found is adding more spring clips in a metal frame really helps stiffen up the package. I put them in about every 3" or so. Filling the back with foam core or even gator board would also stiffen things up if you don't like using spring clips. I have seen strainers built to drop into the back and then the frame is screwed through the channel into the strainer for strength on some really large pieces. I'm not a big fan of using wire to "hold" the frame together in the center. For one thing it tends to twist the center of the frame in at the back for another I've seen wire stretch too often to think it provides much real support after a while.
Plexi certainly lightens the load but it is more flexible and the piece is more floppy because of it. Then again it's plexi so who cares if it flexes a little.

As far as transport I put cardboard corners on the pieces with stretch wrap and transport them vertically and have had very little trouble with breakage. Most breakage happens when placing the pieces or hitting them on the doorframe when putting them into the van (did that a week ago!). I do not like having pieces wrapped in paper as it provides no protection and I can't see the any damage until I unwrap it in front of the customer. Much better to leave it in the van if it gets broken somehow. Also unwrapping paper on 30-40 pieces makes a big mess and takes too much time. Just having corners on it allows me to see the piece and place it faster. I remove the corners at the time of hanging. It is especially nice to have the corners on if the floors are stone, concrete or something.

As for security hanging, if using the standard T-screw hardware I rarely use just one screw at the bottom. 2 works better. On a really long piece I may use 3 to help support the center. Mark the 2 outside screws and use a straight edge to mark the center. Just the 2 pieces at the top though. Too hard to level 3. The weight eventually settles to the bottom hardware anyway.

Wow...long post for me...I must be suffering from diarrhea of the fingers again.
 
Glass in any metal frame poses a breakage problem.
Modern corner hardware has been designed so that
it does not push on the corners of the lite. When
the old hardware did, corner cracks followed. Polyethylene edge channel is always a good idea,
but one must learn to size the components to
accommodate it. Dulling the edges of the lite with an edge seamer and nipping the ends of the
corners off with a glass pliers can help eliminate
some potential cracks. The greatest problem is torque.Sectional frames, even if they have strainers, are not as rigid as welded metal frames. Unweary handlers can twist the frame and crack the glass in it. For high value items, shifting to acrylic when sizes go over 24X30
is probably a good idea, otherwise, it depends
on the care of those handling the frame.

Hugh
 
Originally posted by Bob Carter:

As a PS, nope, we aren't bidding on this project. But, if I were, it would probably sell for less than $50 each.
Click to expand...
The other day we were all talking about glass, and someone was charging $24 for a 24 x 30 clear.

On this thread we are talking oversize, one being 40 x 60 and the finished jobs around $50 each. How or Why are these prices jumping around so much?

Jerry
 
Hi Jerry-Point of clarification, the $50 was suggested as a typical bid in this market for a large sized order of 32x40 oem metal framed project.

Sherry asked if I was bidding on this project (since we both are in the Phoenix area).

Our one at a time price would be higher.

But, prices do (and should) vary. However, in this market, I am quite confident that the winning bid would probably be under $50. We have quite a few commercial-type concerns that would knock this project out in an afternoon with a material's cost around $16-17.

I would take those numbers all day long

[ 06-16-2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Bob Carter ]
 
I can promise those that are wondering, my bids for this job are well above $50 for a 32x40 dry mounted OEM 15 poster! I wouldn't think of doing it for less and am perfectly happy to pass it on if my prices are unacceptable.

We have a competitor in town with two stores that prides himself on doing "anything up to 24 x 36" for $39.95 and he charges "about" $30 for a 11 x 14. He is the BEST DEAL IN TOWN!! His 32 x 40 is "about" $79.95. It amazes me that he is still in business. He gives this stuff away! To each his own. I vowed a long time ago that I won't work for free and I'm sticken' too it!

:cool: 109 today....keepen' those shades on!!
 
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