Where are these customers getting this idea?

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FramerCat

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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:help::icon9::help: Over the last several days, we have had 6 customers come in who asked specifically to have their art/prints whatever sandwiched between 2 pieces of glass, no frame, no hardware showing. They want to have this mounted on the wall. Has anyone else run into this? Where is this coming from? It is driving us crazy. Also, of course, they want it cheap too!:cry: Thanks in advance!
 
Some wannabe interior decorator on HGTV probably suggested to use it on one of those inane shows and now people think it's the great idea since the light bulb.

Lori
 
Of course it's cheap, no hardwear and everything just "sitting" there...

Seriously though, you can get thickish acrylic with a hanger hole on the back block and put magnets in the corners, these can also be put into the corners where the art will sit thus hidden by the work itself.
 
I cant remember where I saw it right now, but, I did see these things that are four silver post type things that screw into the wall and then you can put your art between two pieces of acrylic and they hold it out away from the wall. If anyone can visulize that?
 
I won't do the art between two pieces of glass sandwich anymore.

I think it's too dangerous with the exposed sides of the glass. I'll do a plexi-glass sandwich with

a uni-frame if they make me, but I won't be happy about it.

I tell the customer the dangers of using exposed glass, and try to talk them into using some

type of frame.
 
Every now and then when I'm in my cranky old man mode, (actually, just for laughs) I will say to these people, "Lets see now, you come into a picture framing store, to explain that you don't want to buy a picture frame? I think you are losing me."

I think we all get these folks from time to time. I will normally explain all that is involved in making these, and yes, if they do not want clips showing, it's made from Plexiglas, therefor it'll be expensive. Even if they want those basic clip frames, to custom make it, it won't be cheap. You have to have Masonite that has square holes cut for the Swiss clips, you have to sand, seal, and paint the Masonite. The glass must be cut and seamed, etc., etc.

I will then explain that a metal frame and glass would be a whole lot cheaper. Most of the time I will get the sale. I never tell them I can't do it, because I can, it just ain't gonna be cheap.

John
 
They get the idea at Starbucks. Next time you are near a Starbucks, stop in and check out the wall decor.

And the thing Tessa mentioned -- the acrylic with 4 corner posts holding it together -- is available from Showcase Acrylics. I saw it at WCAF. The problem is, customers that want something sandwiched between glass think that's going to be cheaper than a frame, so they won't be terribly excited about the price you charge for Showcase Acrylics' product.
 
TessaE said:
I cant remember where I saw it right now, but, I did see these things that are four silver post type things that screw into the wall and then you can put your art between two pieces of acrylic and they hold it out away from the wall. If anyone can visulize that?
Click to expand...

United # 4833, acrylic frame pegs or aluminum frame pegsl # 4834 cost about $12.

I agree it's one of the most requested things I get, they usually want to do it on an expensive print, then you have to explain why it's not a good idea; about it not being good to sandwich the paper, durability, exposure to air polution and bugs.

I see cheap frames like this at Target but there is usually some kind of frame.
 
TessaE said:
I cant remember where I saw it right now, but, I did see these things that are four silver post type things that screw into the wall and then you can put your art between two pieces of acrylic and they hold it out away from the wall. If anyone can visulize that?
Click to expand...

Actually, it's becoming popular in modern decor here (in backwards land! - Down Under) it is commonly done by facemounting the image/photo onto acrylic (usually 3/8" or 1/2" thick!) with an optically-clear, pressure sensitive adhesive (eg: Drytac's Windowtac). You need to have rollers to do this - you cannot do it by hand. It's not usually done by just sandwiching the image between two pieces of acrylic, as the image will just slip and drop down from gravity...

I've done a few of these as demos, and they look ultra cool. No frame, just the mounts. People who "want" this look will usually pay for it as well - and you can charge as much for this as you would for an average custom frame the same size... less materials, more profit.

It's definitely not a "conservation" style of framing (so don't start flaming me for this...) - it's a minimalistic design / image thing...
 
I had a decorator ask for this last week. She had 17 pieces and thought it would be dirt cheap. Her framing order was $1200 and when I told her it would cost over $5000 for the floating concept she shut up about it and went with frames.

I have no idea how much the actual cost of float would be but I Know at $5000+ it would be profitable.
 
FramerCat said:
:help::icon9::help: Over the last several days, we have had 6 customers come in who asked specifically to have their art/prints whatever sandwiched between 2 pieces of glass, no frame, no hardware showing. They want to have this mounted on the wall.
Click to expand...


Maybe you could laminate a crayon drawing with 2 inches of excess plastic sticking out all around and stick it to the wall with ATG. Then when the next six customers come in you can point to the wall and say, "like that?" Then pull out the mats, moulding samples and ask "or do you want it framed like a grown up?"

OK Actually I wouldn't have the guts to say the second, but I might have a "grown up" version next to the grade school job and let the customer get a visual of the two together.


BTW business has been up here, but it has been nickel and dime business. I did 2 MES (laminated prints from DonMar) in the past 3 years and have done 8 this year already. Customers want the work done, but don't have the money to spend. IMO.
 
PaulSF said:
They get the idea at Starbucks. Next time you are near a Starbucks, stop in and check out the wall decor.

And the thing Tessa mentioned -- the acrylic with 4 corner posts holding it together -- is available from Showcase Acrylics. I saw it at WCAF. The problem is, customers that want something sandwiched between glass think that's going to be cheaper than a frame, so they won't be terribly excited about the price you charge for Showcase Acrylics' product.
Click to expand...

Paul,
Paragon Frames will make these for you. Right on your way to work. They call it the sandwich frame. It has plastic screws near the four corners, and a glued on hanging device in the center of the plastic so that the hanger would be covered by the art. All make to order. It's quite hideous and expensive.

Jeff says that Tap plastics have them as well. If I could find a wholesale ready made source for these, I'd buy them because we also get regular requests for such a product, and they always are thinking it will be cheap.

Bob says we should be giving the public what they want, so let's find a source!
 
Where is Paragon Frames? Never mind, google is my friend!

I agree, I probably should carry something like this, or those clip-frames that snap on to the sides of posters. I get enough customers asking for them...certainly more than have ever asked about digital photo frames (that number would be zero).

I just feel a wee bit insulted when someone walks into my frame shop and tells me they don't want a frame. It's like me walking into a restaurant and telling them I'm hungry, but I don't want their food. Hey, if you don't want a frame, then go to the nail salon next door, and let them help you.
 
PaulSF said:
Where is Paragon Frames? Never mind, google is my friend!

I agree, I probably should carry something like this, or those clip-frames that snap on to the sides of posters. I get enough customers asking for them...certainly more than have ever asked about digital photo frames (that number would be zero).

I just feel a wee bit insulted when someone walks into my frame shop and tells me they don't want a frame. It's like me walking into a restaurant and telling them I'm hungry, but I don't want their food. Hey, if you don't want a frame, then go to the nail salon next door, and let them help you.
Click to expand...

I sell Uni Frames because at least they are somewhat sturdy. We don't' sell Swiss Clips and the like because we guarantee our work, even the DIY, and I don't trust them.

Paragon are an acrylic fabricator. We use them for our box frames. I see lots of framer's vans outside their shop. They are at the Army St. exit.
They don't have a price list, which is inconvenient. Where do you buy acrylic boxes?

One side note, we took our box frame display down about a year ago for repair, and since then we have not sold one. Wow, a perfect example of sell what you display.
 
Kirstie said:
I sell Uni Frames because at least they are somewhat sturdy. We don't' sell Swiss Clips and the like because we guarantee our work, even the DIY, and I don't trust them.

Paragon are an acrylic fabricator. We use them for our box frames. I see lots of framer's vans outside their shop. They are at the Army St. exit.
They don't have a price list, which is inconvenient. Where do you buy acrylic boxes?

One side note, we took our box frame display down about a year ago for repair, and since then we have not sold one. Wow, a perfect example of sell what you display.
Click to expand...

I don't have an acrylic box display up yet...so I haven't sold any. It's on my list of things to do, if I have any money left after paying my rent. So the UniFrames are better? Where do you get those?
 
PaulSF said:
I don't have an acrylic box display up yet...so I haven't sold any. It's on my list of things to do, if I have any money left after paying my rent. So the UniFrames are better? Where do you get those?
Click to expand...

United.

The box frame display that has sold the most framing is a small needlepoint rug that my late mother made, sewn onto a navy suede, gallery wrapped around the strainer. Paragon will predrill the holes for screws to attach into the strainer to your specs. They are about a mile west of the freeway in an industrial park.
 
PaulSF said:
I don't have an acrylic box display up yet...so I haven't sold any. It's on my list of things to do, if I have any money left after paying my rent. So the UniFrames are better? Where do you get those?
Click to expand...
Paul, I would not say Uni-Frames are better. They are acceptable for their given purpose. We sell far fewer these days because the poster special is intentionally cheaper than a Uni with full price glass and backing. I'd much rather see the customer have a poster framed inexpensively than subjected to the elements (from the side) in a Uni Frame. These clip frames also cause more problems, take longer to assemble, and are less profitable. I'd be happy if we never sold another one. We keep them in stock because some people prefer them. Like I said, I'd stock a cheap sandwich frame as well, if I could find one.
 
Jared Davis CPF GCF said:
Actually, it's becoming popular in modern decor here (in backwards land! - Down Under) it is commonly done by facemounting the image/photo onto acrylic (usually 3/8" or 1/2" thick!) with an optically-clear, pressure sensitive adhesive (eg: Drytac's Windowtac). You need to have rollers to do this - you cannot do it by hand. It's not usually done by just sandwiching the image between two pieces of acrylic, as the image will just slip and drop down from gravity...

I've done a few of these as demos, and they look ultra cool. No frame, just the mounts. People who "want" this look will usually pay for it as well - and you can charge as much for this as you would for an average custom frame the same size... less materials, more profit.

It's definitely not a "conservation" style of framing (so don't start flaming me for this...) - it's a minimalistic design / image thing...
Click to expand...

Does the Windowtac keep the acrylic together as well? And how is it hung on the wall? I lost a small job in an architectural firm in SF once because I declined to drill through an acrylic sheet into their walls to mount a poster. The "frameless" look was not supplied by me. There wasn't much to supply.
 
This "framing method" (the glass sandwich) is an up-and-coming trend and is in the same vein as the "museum wrap" that so many of us loath. Really, not a whole lot different that the acrylic box frame mentioned if you think about it, a floating piece of art in a "non-frame" look.

Seems like we need to be open to these movements and trends and try to accomodate the customer if possible.

That being said, as we all know, not every frame is appropriate for every piece of art. That's why most of us boast our hugh selections of framing options....walls overflowing with samples....big, little, fat, skinny, deep, shallow......etc. The challenge, as a professional framer, is to move the customer in the right direction to the best solution for their individual piece.

.....but, if it's the "glass sandwich" that they came in for and nothing else on the menu will satisfy.....serve it up.
 
Kirstie said:
Does the Windowtac keep the acrylic together as well? And how is it hung on the wall? I lost a small job in an architectural firm in SF once because I declined to drill through an acrylic sheet into their walls to mount a poster. The "frameless" look was not supplied by me. There wasn't much to supply.
Click to expand...

Hi Kirstie! :)

Here's an example of how the concept looks, from a business I know in Australia - http://www.brightroom.com.au/acrylic_ice.html

To do this, all you really need is a set of Jetmounter rollers from Drytac, some face mounting adhesive (comes in a roll, pressure sensitive), a demo video DVD and some practice! I'm sure if you contact Drytac, they'll have some specific info...

Note that it is posible to do this with only one piece of acrylic, as the image is permanently "face" mounted to the rear of the acrylic... This means you only need the adhesive for the face of the image, and not really anywhere else. If you use a two piece sandwich, then you don't usually use pressure sensitive adhesive to join them together.

I know Lion in the UK have a great range of acrylic mounts, but most acrylic suppliers should have a source of these.

Cheers,

Jared
 
I know most plastic fabricators would probably beable to make something like this up, I'm sure it would be better to have the plexi edges polished, but for a low end job maybe not. I found drill bits for plexi at some fabricators and better hardware stores. Its the screw/knob that is hard to find. I see signs and displays like this all the time, does anyone have experience with sign making that might help? This has turned into a very useful thread. Maybe a supplier out there will read this and carry a better selection of materials so we can do this, HINT, HINT!!!
 
Can someone explain exactly what type of adhesive is used to affix the art to the plexi/glass? I'm not really understanding how it works. I like those architectural mounts, they have a nice look that is becoming increasingly popular,especially in the corporate world.

Jared, when you say rollers, are we talking about a large machine? Or is this something fairly inexpensive?

Does anyone actually use glass in this instance, rather than plexi? I assume a glass supplier would be the best bet for something like this, right? Especially for those thick beefy sizes of glass/plexi.

Also, who sells those standoff mounts? Is that their proper name if I were to look in the catalog for them? I would assume United is the first place to look?

dave.
 
Adhesive??? Static electricity.... it's called a "Static Mount" for good reason.

The screws are called Chicago Screws
5035092.jpg


1/4" hole in each corner 3/4" from both sides and your good to go. I really like wowing it up with Black backer acrylic which becomes a mat.....

They look so "Museumey"..... Charge em Kirstie.. the people that come to your shop, won't be getting over to Army St anytime in this lifetime.

Sometimes you just have to forget about finding the "Wholesale" price.... but what you buy, and slap your mark on it. Contractors call it "labor"... decorators call it "I knew where to get it and you didn't".
 
I saw something like these at WCAF in one of the print vendor's booths. They were in the back room, and as you entered that back room, you would turn to the right and go all the way down to the side wall. They were in the front corner. It was some green leaf print, and it went to the borders of the plexi (unlike in the picture Jared linked to).

I thought it looked really cool, and I kept meaning to ask about it, but every time I stopped by the booth people seemed to be really busy. (Maybe I should have washed first)
 
Jared Davis CPF GCF said:
Hi Kirstie! :)

Here's an example of how the concept looks, from a business I know in Australia - http://www.brightroom.com.au/acrylic_ice.html
Click to expand...

Jared, I love the graphics on this site. Although we are framers, Jeff and I like clean, simple lines, and I find all this very appealing. I note that the prices are not inexpensive, a good thing in this case.

I mentioned critical mass in another thread. These would look great as a whole wall display.

Kirsite
 
Baer Charlton said:
The screws are called Chicago Screws
5035092.jpg


1/4" hole in each corner 3/4" from both sides and your good to go. I really like wowing it up with Black backer acrylic which becomes a mat.....
Click to expand...

The professional brackets are called stand offs. These are machined and very nice.
Try www.signstandoffs.com

or try United Mfg part U4834 These are also machined and very nice.

or try www.pizazzmultimounts.com
These are machined metal and also come in plastic for a variety of colors. They are available from Laird Plastics also.

or try Outwater Plastics www.outwater.com
 
Kirstie said:
I note that the prices are not inexpensive, a good thing in this case.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind those are Australian Dollar Prices which at the current price equate to: AUS$1.00 = US$0.93. The difference is negligible, but still could have an effect if any of us use it as a basis for calculations.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]1 up [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]10” x 24” (250 x 600mm)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]$160[/SIZE][/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]16” x 24” (400 x 600mm)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]$225[/SIZE][/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]24” x 24” (600 x 600mm)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]$275[/SIZE][/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]24” x 31” (600 x 800mm)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]$355[/SIZE][/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]3 up[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]10” x 24” (250 x 600mm)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]$185[/SIZE][/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]16” x 47” (400 x 1200mm)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]$355[/SIZE][/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]9 up [/SIZE][/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]24” x 24” (600 x 600mm)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]$345[/SIZE][/FONT]​


dave.
 
Baer Charlton said:
Adhesive??? Static electricity.... it's called a "Static Mount" for good reason.
Click to expand...


OK, now I'm confused a tad. How would one achieve the static mount then if they use glass? I have seen glass quite a bit. I'm sure plexi is more cost effective to machine, but just in case you get that customer that is always asking...."what about?"

Is Jared's way the same way as yours Baer?

dave.
 
DLB said:
Can someone explain exactly what type of adhesive is used to affix the art to the plexi/glass? I'm not really understanding how it works. I like those architectural mounts, they have a nice look that is becoming increasingly popular,especially in the corporate world.

Jared, when you say rollers, are we talking about a large machine? Or is this something fairly inexpensive?

Does anyone actually use glass in this instance, rather than plexi? dave.
Click to expand...

Hey Dave!

No - never use glass mate - it cracks and break too easily when going through the roller laminators, and the sharp edges damage the siliconized rubber rollers.

Here is a link to the same roller laminators we sell over here in Australia, and I am familiar with using http://www.drytac.com/laminators.asp . Prices for these machines will no doubt vary, but all will do the same job. The 44" wide motorised version is the most popular, and sells for a bit more than the price of a top of the range foot operated mitre guillotine.

Here is a link to the Facemount adhesive I would use and recommend for this process http://www.drytac.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=123 - Once again, it is a cold, pressure sensitive product. There is no heat used in this process whatsoever - just pressure through the rollers.

The "Windowtac" adhesive they sell will do a similar job, but not as crystal clear and professional as the Facemount... this is the one.

Althought the principles of static mount can work.... ish! - the static mount method is never used for the effect and method I've been showing, as it's too unreliable.... depends on too many variables and environment conditions. When you try it out on a big image, you will see what I mean.

Cheers,

Jared
 
...and I thought the Midwest's trends were always lagging 10 years behind. When Southwest went out, it took ten years for it to cool off here. The same happened with blues and mauves, then jewel tones, etc.

The glass sandwich was something I had to contend with 15-20 years ago but I haven't heard that one in a long time. Hated ot then, hate it now, go to Hobby Bobby.
 
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