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YooperFramer

YooperFramer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Jul 28, 2004
Posts
864
Loc
marquette michigan
SO, this good customer of mine decided that she didnt like the frame we/she picked for her picture. Hubby picked up the finished piece, so she wasnt there to say ooooh i love it, or it sucks...
She brings the framing back in and we pick a new frame.

The old frame was a larson's Cherry. 16$ft
New frame is still a larson at 17$ft

would you:
1. make her pay for a whole new frame
2. have her pay the difference
3. let her have it even swap

My first instinct is to have her pay the dif.
quite sure I'll be able to use the cherry frame in the future, hopefully sooner than later lol.
She's is a really nice lady and I could tell she felt pretty sorry about having to change the frame.
 
You know in your heart what to do, right??

For me, I'd just swap it out and give her a big hug.:beer:

Edit: This is based on her being a "good customer" and that she isn't prone to doing this sort of thing. Also, it would be when i'm having a good day and feel like doing it.

I can see the thought of having her pay something to help the bottom line tho.
 
Im glad that hasn't happened to me yet. I can imagine having them pay the difference plus shipping for the new frame. One a side note, my son and I will be your way this July, can we do a pop in?
 
If a customer came in my shop and returned a frame that they picked, I would tell them politely that the new frame will cost them the difference plus a refit charge. It wouldn't matter how "good" a customer they were.

My customers that have done this all agreed to pay the difference as they know that they were the ones that picked the frame.

Now if it was a frame I modified, colored, tinted etc or it was my choice, then I would do it over at no charge for the first redo and then charge accordingly thereafter.
 
That's a tough situation for any framer. I only had it happen once, very early in my first store.

I would offer to charge her for just the frame (retail price) and you'll provide the "labor" at no charge, but if you feel you can re-use it then any option is okay. I'd be careful not to set a precedent too.
 
I think having her pay the difference in the cost of the frame is fair. A fitting fee would not be unreasonable, but it depends on your policy. While I can see a case for wanting to make your customer happy, materials aren't free, (your) labor isn't free and I am sure you would have been more than willing to lend samples out along with a quote if she needed to think about her purchase. It's an informed decision and I don't see any reason to feel guilty over what is an accommodating return policy.
 
Each instance is different. I have changed frames at no charge and I have had them pay the difference.

Once instance was a mother/daughter team who placed the order and kept going back and forth between the same frame but a larger and a smaller version, because of cost. They went with the smaller, Mom only comes to pick it up. Daughter brings it back later that it was suppose to be the larger version. They insisted that since it was my "fault" for charging them for the smaller I should redo at no additional cost. I declined. I ended up meeting them half way and charging them for half of the difference.
 
A situation like this NEVER :icon21: happened to me. When they sign the bottom of the "order sheet" they know their decision is final... what they agreed on is what they get. A custom DID, however, called me a few minutes before i started her order and wanted a different frame moulding because she decided to hang it in a different room and asked if it was okay to do so or was it too late. I told her "no problem" and put the order on hold. She came back the following day, picked another frame moulding, and signed a new order sheet. I stock footage of ALL the mouldings i sell, so i can do so. I don't make the frame for an order right when they leave, unless all the other customer's orders are done. Set your rules, make sure they understand, and a problem like this will never happen again. Good Luck....
 
This is our 30th year in business. I think a big part of our success is based on a very loyal customer base.

Reminds me of a staff meeting a while ago. We were reviewing our "you have to love it" policy and one of our staff members asked, what if word of the policy "gets out?"

I said, "you mean that people find out that if they are not thrilled with the work we have done we will do whatever it takes to make them happy?" Meaning that if they don't like the frame, we give them a full credit on the frame and then charge them for the new frame (if it is more expensive, they pay the difference - if it is significantly less, we even cut a refund). My staff member replied, "Yes, what if it gets out?" She was concerned that customers would take advantage of the policy.

My philosophy is that it is the designer's responsibility to wow the client and be sure that they will be thrilled with the final result. We have lots of training that goes into becoming a designer including a sales protocol. If a particular designer has a string of boomerangs, it is my fault and that I determine why this was happening and take the steps to correct it.

At the time we were framing about 125 pieces per week. I asked our staff, "how many pieces come back for any reason?" Is it a significant percentage of the number of pieces per week? Can we cut the frames down and make photo frames out of them to recapture our cost?

They agreed that the number of "boomerangs" (as I called redos, meaning they came flying back :)) was a small amount. They do happen (as as your volume increases, so will the opportunities to have something go wrong.)

So our policy was "just fix it."

As a smaller framer, "fixing it" may hurt occasionally, but it is what needs to be done to create loyalty in a client base. I would not give it away, and if the new frame, mat, technique costs more, charge the difference. Your time is worth more than what is costs to debate "who's wrong". Just fix it.
 
Haven't had enough of these to establish a policy, but I like Rob's.

Here's a variable that I have thought about when this does occur; does the customer like the art or are they framing it out of some sense of obligation? About as often as I have frames boomerang on me, I have counceled customers to not frame the item they brought in. It usually becomes apparent in the design process, but may manifest it in the finished product. The customer wasn't really in love with the art to begin with (lots of reasons, but it generally falls into obligation) and now that it is framed the honeymoon is over.
I will ask them to live with the art for a while as framed, and if they really don't like it for any reason, I will either unframe the piece and refund their money, or apply what they have invested towards another frame (but only once).
Lucky again that I have learned to catch these in the process. The customer will generally admit that they are not fond of the art. Some need to proceed because of the obligation, others decide it isn't worth it.

And if you missed it, Rob's model for top-down management is really the only way to go. It applies to any size business.

We are a small shop but we've been at it 38 years. Haven't seen it all, I hope.
 
I agree, If she is a good customer who is not prone to such things I would just charge the difference. At least you have the potential to sell the frame to someone else.

In my photograpy business it is little different. It would be hard for me to sell a 20x24 of your family to someone else;)
 
This must be a pretty rare event or you wouldn't be seeking comment. If I am correct about this, I would just fix it. Unless there is a significant difference in the price of the moulding, I would just do it for a smile. Rob makes some very good points about this.

I remember the first time I encountered this problem and the fear it struck in me that this was going to be a regular thing, but in 16 years it has only happened twice. Both times I made lifetime customers and have made the few dollars I lost back many, many times over.
 
What Rob said.

This has happened enough times to me to have a policy about it.

My policy is basically this: I almost always allow upgrades without penalty. What this means is that if a customer decides they want the more expensive frame after all, then they get it (no refit, no labor) for only the price difference. Yes, I charge them the price difference. I eat the original frame (for lunch.) If they decide they want museum glass once they get it home, same thing applies. If they decide they should have matted it, I have redone that as well.

I have never had it happen that they want to change to the cheaper option. I don't know why. I have never had anyone want to return a frame for cash. They are usually genuinely remorseful they didn't spend the money the first time around.

I would change the frame for your lady for the price difference. And I would be as cheerful as possible about it.

edie the cheeerfulaspossibleoy goddess
 
wvframer said:
I remember the first time I encountered this problem and the fear it struck in me that this was going to be a regular thing, but in 16 years it has only happened twice. Both times I made lifetime customers and have made the few dollars I lost back many, many times over.
Click to expand...

Exactly :)
 
It's such a small difference, I would make it an even swap. If the original was $16/ft. and the new choice is $30/ft., then I'd charge the $14/ft. difference.
 
Exchange for the cheaper option will never actually happen, because as it turns out, the new choice is always either the same price as the original, or more. Isn't it funny how it works out that way?


Framing Goddess said:
What Rob said.

This has happened enough times to me to have a policy about it.

My policy is basically this: I almost always allow upgrades without penalty. What this means is that if a customer decides they want the more expensive frame after all, then they get it (no refit, no labor) for only the price difference. Yes, I charge them the price difference. I eat the original frame (for lunch.) If they decide they want museum glass once they get it home, same thing applies. If they decide they should have matted it, I have redone that as well.

I have never had it happen that they want to change to the cheaper option. I don't know why. I have never had anyone want to return a frame for cash. They are usually genuinely remorseful they didn't spend the money the first time around.

I would change the frame for your lady for the price difference. And I would be as cheerful as possible about it.

edie the cheeerfulaspossibleoy goddess
Click to expand...
 
I will have to say that I have rarely had this happen. But when it did, the customer and I came to a compromise that was acceptable to both of us (well maybe them). I didnt suffer in the long run.

I do remember an order I took for a man that came in with exact dimensions over his bed. No problem, because the art he brought in accomadated those outside dimensions of the frame.

He calls after picking up, and says it's too large and wants a refund. I had a drawing from him with the size, and that's how I made it. No refund, and I dont regret it.
 
framah said:
You know in your heart what to do, right??

For me, I'd just swap it out and give her a big hug.:beer:

Edit: This is based on her being a "good customer" and that she isn't prone to doing this sort of thing...
Click to expand...

There's your answer. We are in a business that is about pleasing people, and these situations are an opportunity to show why doing business with you is so special. You will relieve the customer's anxiety, and will receive untold goodwill through tales of your unexpected and refreshing approach.

Rob has described the philosophy well. Another "somewhat successful" framer, Jay Goltz, has a philosophy at his shop of "We don't want you to be satisfied. We want you to be thrilled." Seems to work pretty well for him.
;) Rick

P.S. Since this is a frame you can easily re-use, your cost for being a hero is virtually nil in this instance. Otherwise, you can always use it for a framed model in your shop, or even for a charity framing job. It won't go to waste.
 
Thanks everyone!!!

She really is a great customer, never balks at price, friendly, genuine, and she really deserves the same back.
I'm going to just swap it out, even steven.

ps. this was a first for me (esp w/ a frame that looks really good on the painting already, it totally threw me for loop, see the attached pic)
The new frame is the black AEGEAN collection 392372 .gack.
 

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I think this might be the only industry were the customer would be allowed a free "do over".
 
YooperFramer said:
Thanks everyone!!!

She really is a great customer, never balks at price, friendly, genuine, and she really deserves the same back.
I'm going to just swap it out, even steven.

ps. this was a first for me (esp w/ a frame that looks really good on the painting already, it totally threw me for loop, see the attached pic)
The new frame is the black AEGEAN collection 392372 .gack.
Click to expand...

Don't forget the hug!!:thumbsup:
 
RParrish said:
I think this might be the only industry were the customer would be allowed a free "do over".
Click to expand...

I was trying to think of other industries who would do the same...and couldn't think of any.

I think I would charge for the difference.

If I order a sofa, with custom fabric and I don't like it when I get it; do you think they would swap it for free?
If I redo my kitchen with custom cabinets and then decide that the color is note exactly what I wanted; do you think they'd re-do it for free?
Sure, if they did; I would be a customer forever, so I understand the reasoning.

But I would be as happy if they'd work with me; charge the extra amount it would cost them. Just the fact I wouldn't be stuck with something I wasn't happy with, but I would pay for the extra and still be happy.
 
Ylva said:
I was trying to think of other industries who would do the same...and couldn't think of any.

I think I would charge for the difference.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you say Ylva, the only other industry that I can think of, would be the restaurant business, but you cant typically send one meal back and get another different one just because you did not like it.
 
I think it all comes down to relationships. Our responsibility doesn't end with a completed five step job, it's about forging a working partnership and you can only do that with people that LOVE what they hang up. That kind of goodwill pays for itself over and over again, far beyond the $50 you might lose on an expensive frame moulding.

Our policy is the same as Rob's and Edie's and I'm never going to change it. It's a rare thing to have to change a frame, but when I do, I always see that person back. I like my policy so much, I use it as a selling point. "Risk free framing" I call it when a person is being particularly unsure. It gives them the to confidence to possibly make a mistake and thus they are able to actually make a decision.

I've only had one instance where a customer wanted to switch her mats over and over again and since I felt that person was taking advantage of me and being indecisive on my dime, I cut her loose. Once in ten years, that's not so bad.
 
Sadie, I'm not questioning this; I would allow a one time change; but I would not want to eat the costs for a more expensive frame, no matter how little the difference.

It hasn't happened to me yet, fortunately, but I've had numerous occasions where a customer could not decide, or I could tell they were just not sure. I will send them home with samples; I will tell them they have until (insert date) to change their minds, or to just think it over before they place the order.
Sometimes I will ask them to leave the piece with me, think it over and have them come back and I will design something differently.
I take my time designing and listening to the customer, like most of us here. I don't think I want to full out advertise; "if you're not happy, you can change it at no cost".

There are too many scenarios in this case; you can only decide this on a case by case scenario.
As you can tell from my other thread (with the meridian finish) I am more than willing to do whatever it takes for a great customer.
But you know what? I have bills to pay and kids to feed. Nothing is for free.
 
Not no cost, just the difference in the retail of materials. If frame A is $150 and they want to upgrade to frame B for $200, then they pay the $50.

I think in 10 years, I've done this only about five or six times. Sometimes when people have the confidence to make a decision, they are much happier with the finished product than they anticipated. And I have always, always seen that person back for more framing and no one has ever taken me up on it twice. We have to do something to set us apart from the BBs, and I think as much as we harp on quality, it's really the ability to build a relationship that makes us different. They have to know you care how you feel about it, not just that the project was completed as ordered.

It's the reverse of the person who takes an hour to chose between two virtually identical white mats, that person won't be happy with either.
 
Interesting that just about everyone is willing to bite the bullet on such a scenario and I do agree in the case of a very good customer that it is the wisest decision. Like Randy, I wonder what other custom made product business would be willing to totally eat the labor and materials on an approved order.

If a customer decided on a design I particularly didn't care for and advised against then I would not bite the bullet but would be willing to work something out. The pain would have to be shared though.


If a customer wasn't sure about a design I chose and I convinced them to go forward then, sure, I would and should be the one to be willing to redesign and redo the work.

Like others have said, each case needs to be evaluated based on the particulars of the order. I don't agree that it should automatically be the case that if someone decides they don't like the finished product that they should be able to get something reframed at no cost or even just the difference.
 
It is very rare someone brings something back because they don't like it. But as of yesterday, one of my customers decided she didn't like the mat she chose for a picture 4 months ago because it now has a pinkish tone to it B8151... i told her its probably the glass, and it took her forever to decide on what mat she wanted first time round.

She asked if she could have it redone with new colors. I just said it could be. didn't mention anything about price at that point because she wanted to match this new diploma with the same mat she doesn't like.

i think she is off the rocker somewhat. I think i might charge her for the mats but not the labor since she took forever to find the perfect mat the first time... and the lighting seems to be changing it, and then she wanted the same mat on another one while not liking it on the other... but i talked her to a big change in mat colors... hope she likes the new one i am doing... ugh.

i believe the one frame i replaced for a customer, i gave them 20% off because the lady made the mistake and chose the wrong color for her house... they didn't even want me to take 20% off, but i did... don't know if that is a good thing or not if they feel bad for you trying to help them.
 
I have had it happen and sometimes ate it and sometimes not, life long customer or not I don't like it. Probably endemic of any business where you have a one on one relationship with your customer. Lets face it there aren't many of those around....
 
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