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FrameMakers

FrameMakers

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Mar 20, 2001
Posts
7,395
Loc
Powell, OH
Yesterday a customer comes in with a signed Dali that we re-matted and replaced the glass on in 2000. The screw pulled out of the frame and it broke the glass damaging the frame, mats and 2 small scratches on the art.

The frame was not ours, we just replaced the mat and put conservation glass on it. We did put a new wire on it, but the wire did not fail, the soft wood did. The screw was not on the edge of the moulding is was a good 3/4" from the inside of the moulding.

So this has been hanging for 8 years and now it decides to jump off of the wall.

What would you do?

I feel that the customer should pay for new Glass and Mats but I will repair the frame & Refit at no charge. I told my store manager to inform him of that and then if he didn't like that he should contact his insurance company.

I guarantee my frames. This was not my frame so IMO not my problem.

Don't ya just love retail.:faintthud:
 
Can you be a little clearer about what failed? Was it a screw holding a hanger to the frame? More importantly, did you install that screw?

In general I stand behind my work. As in, if I install a hanger that fails, I'll take responsibility for it.

In order to head off such issues, whenever I re-work a customer frame, I give it a once-over and fix up any potential problems that could bite me later on... such as installing new hangers, re-joining miters, etc. The customer gets a better product and I have less exposure.

OBTW - does the customer realize that a "signed Dali print" is likely not worth a whole heck of a lot unless it has a documented provenance? :)
 
Jim, the screw pulled out of the wood. The wire was fine, the d-ring hanger was fine. I couldn't tell about the threads on the screw as he did not bring it in. But the wood is rather soft.

This is kind of like blaming the oil change place because your radiator broke.
 
I remember reading in ABN a few years ago that the Attorney General of New York went after some galleries which were selling forged Dalis.

That could be one of them.
 
It's a shame that the person who inserted the screw was not able to recognise that the wood was soft. If they had, they would have been able to use a hanging system that relied on several screws instead!

The screw was probably overtightened and resulted in the thread being stripped in the soft wood.
 
Two factors ...

8 years

not your frame

Although it sounds like you did put the hanging hardware on.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts they rehung the picture and decided it was a little high and pulled it down putting pressure on the hanging hardware and it pulled out.

My two cents.
 
Just a thought

This does not seem to me to be that much different from a screw pulling out of a soft wood frame YOU provided. Other than you did not collect that hefty moulding profit. haha

What does this customer expect?
 
I'd ask "What sort of wall hook did you use?"

If they say "Oh it was a nice strong ........"

You got 'em - they shoulda used two - you did tell them to use two, didn't you?
 
Did you use the same screw that was originally there?
Did you install it back in the same hole?
If at any point the screw was over tightened it might have stripped the hole.
Not blaming you but just to be on the safe side, we when possible use a longer or larger screw or start a new hole.
After 8 yrs hanging in the same place wouldn't you have a screw loose?
 
dougj said:
Did you use the same screw that was originally there?
Did you install it back in the same hole?
If at any point the screw was over tightened it might have stripped the hole.
Not blaming you but just to be on the safe side, we when possible use a longer or larger screw or start a new hole.
After 8 yrs hanging in the same place wouldn't you have a screw loose?
Click to expand...

New hole, New Screws, I always turn the frame 180 degrees, it was 1/2 screw in a 3/4 deep frame. A longer screw would not have worked. It also could not have handled a 2 hole d-ring as the moulding is a reverse and is very thin as it goes toward the edge.
Overtightening, possible but doubtful that overtightening and stripping the hole would wait 8 years to pull out.
This is only a 22x28ish job wired the same way that we have wired tens of thousands of jobs over the last 38 years.
 
You said you just put wire on it. If you didn't install the hangers I would tell them that "I cannot assume responsibility for work I didn't perform" and do just as you proposed.

If you did install the hangers, I would negotiate a satisfactory resolution.
 
Whenever doing work on materials someone else supplied, I try to scope out any potential problems. If they look like ticking time bombs I wil apologetically beg off the job. If we do the job, however, I make it clear that we cannot be responsible for the quality or performance of materials that are not ours. I have a printed slip detailing this issue, and briefly explaining why reusing old materials may not turn out to be as cost-effective as it would seem. CYA.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
FrameMakers said:
A longer screw would not have worked. It also could not have handled a 2 hole d-ring as the moulding is a reverse and is very thin as it goes toward the edge.
Overtightening, possible but doubtful that overtightening and stripping the hole would wait 8 years to pull out.
Click to expand...

The fact that it did take eight years to fail may or may not be your fault but using something like the "Super Steel II No. 4190" hangers at: http://tinyurl.com/643lpv would go a long way to overcome the problem of screws pulling out of really soft wood.
 
Are they a good customer? Comming back after 8 years...I would make em happy. I don't think it matters about why the frame fell down it just happens. They will spread the word about your incredible service after they had a picture hanging for 8 years and you fixed it after the fall.
 
Dave:

I ALWAYS tell my customers in such cases (and make a note in my POS) that there is a VERY good chance the screws would give due to the fact the wood is old and very possibly would not hold the screws tightly forever.

By as Mona said, if it's a good customer or a potential repeat one I'd replace the mats and the glass in the name of good-will.
 
Dave,

I have no doubt that you properly installed the screw. 8 years later you have no idea how many times the piece has been handled by the wire etc.

For all you know they have one of those vibrating reclining chairs against the wall it was hanging on. There are too many variables during that time span to say it had anything to do with your workmanship.

As far as the Dali goes, just for fun measure the printed dimensions and do some research as to what the dimensions should be. Tons of forgeries here. Many of the bogus ones did not match the size of the authentic prints.

You can read about some of the fraud in the Dali market here.

http://www.westoncollection.com/Salvador_Dali.cfm
 
osgood said:
The fact that it did take eight years to fail may or may not be your fault but using something like the "Super Steel II No. 4190" hangers at: http://tinyurl.com/643lpv would go a long way to overcome the problem of screws pulling out of really soft wood.
Click to expand...
I was wondering about that....Just glad someone brought it up.Love those kind of hangers,Flangers too.I enjoy overkill though.I wasn`t gonna bring this thought up alone,this isn`t my main gig,I was hoping someone a bit more pro had the same thought.Thanks Osgood! L.
 
osgood said:
The fact that it did take eight years to fail may or may not be your fault but using something like the "Super Steel II No. 4190" hangers at: http://tinyurl.com/643lpv would go a long way to overcome the problem of screws pulling out of really soft wood.
Click to expand...

I used to use those hangers, threw them all out. Those are stamped steel and the edges are sharp and cut the wire.
 
FrameMakers said:
I used to use those hangers, threw them all out. Those are stamped steel and the edges are sharp and cut the wire.
Click to expand...
Yes,those are..I like the flangers a lot though,smooth edges,and a "grommet" in the angled wire hole....nice,and flat profiled too.Cool packaging as well(ok,I`m a sucker for a cool,efficient product package). L.:D
 
The hangers that I have are not all that sharp, but certainly could be improved. Perhaps they are a different brand.
I use SSS wire and use a heavier wire than I would if using D rings. Maybe they wil cut through over time......eight years perhaps? ;) ;)
 
When we repair work done from another shop, we don't put our sticker on the back. When customers bring in work already matted or dry mounted, we don't put our sticker on the back.

Our sticker is like a "seal of approval." If it ain't there; we don't approve!

I'm having email problems with my three month old computer, yet I hesitate to call Best Buy and Geek Squad to fix it because I know I'll get the Run Around, though it is still under Full Warranty.

And a customer expects YOU to stand by your work after EIGHT YEARS? Give me a break! Presumptious of them, no?

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, MA
 
wendy lang said:
When we repair work done from another shop, we don't put our sticker on the back. When customers bring in work already matted or dry mounted, we don't put our sticker on the back.

Our sticker is like a "seal of approval." If it ain't there; we don't approve!

I'm having email problems with my three month old computer, yet I hesitate to call Best Buy and Geek Squad to fix it because I know I'll get the Run Around, though it is still under Full Warranty.

And a customer expects YOU to stand by your work after EIGHT YEARS? Give me a break! Presumptious of them, no?Wendy The Art Corner Salem,MA
Click to expand...
Actually,I do...If a customer prefers not to have a repair done elsewhere,I will repair any artwork(2-D or 3-D)I did free(owner pays shipping/handling both ways),no matter how long they`ve had it...I also keep my public school murals in good condition.So far(25+ years) I`ve fixed maybe 15-20 pieces total! however it helps sales,customers knowing that If they need it,and don`t trust the job to someone else,they can send it "home' for a repair.No I don`t advertise that,but if someone calls or emails,I will accept the job.BTW,only 3-D repairs so far.....L.:D
 
Luddite!

What I consider "good will" repair or framing I do all the time! I'm also proud of what I do; I just don't want to be saddled with someone else's "bad job."

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, MA
 
Dave, I would do something similar. This reminds me that we all need disclaimers on our "guarantees" We can't guarantee the quality of frames that we do not build. I need to review my statement.
 
wendy lang said:
Luddite!

What I consider "good will" repair or framing I do all the time! I'm also proud of what I do; I just don't want to be saddled with someone else's "bad job."

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, MA
Click to expand...
OOPS!! Misread ya,I don`t mess with other peoples`s stuff either...unless the customer pays,and swears not to 'bite the hand",if the thing turns out to be pure junk.....L.
 
I've seen screw eye pull almost all the way out and lay on their side and hang on by one thread. I'm very skeptical that a screw shot into a d-ring would just come out. I know I have never seen that happen anyway.

Does the look of the hole confirm their story. You will certainly be able to see if a screw was ripped 90 degrees out of its hole. A screw that size in that frame would probably tear the frame apart. I'm sure you know why I think this is so important!

Even if it did, its their frame. I think your offer is fair.
 
Jay makes an interesting point. How does this happen? When the frame is hanging, nearly all force is exerted vertically, so the pull-out force would be very slight.

Is it possible this customer is just trying to weasel a free frame repair out of you? It might be easy to rip out the screw, after the frame is damaged by an unrelated accident. I'm not normally cynical, but something seems fishy here.

Anyway, I think you made a fair proposal to fix it. Good on you.
 
I had the same thing happen few years ago, it was my frame a handfinished mahgony frame, very soft wood. Only it fell on a setimental vase, that could not be replaced. They wanted my insurance to cover the damages. They had no reciept for th vase, of course. The Insurance company said "It's out of your care and control" end of story. It's like when someone picks up their frames carries it out the door and breaks the glass, they expect you to be responsible....
I also learned that they did not hang it as I recommended, always with 2 hooks, less stress on the frame.
I forget the exact out come, I know I refitted the frame with a strainer, installed the new frame for them, I don't think I gave them anything for the vase, S.O.L. I.M.O.
 
I agree with RParrish--if the frame job is one I did, I fix it. The repair is free if the problem is my fault (rare--slipped mounts, for instance). It's not free if the problem was the customer's doing (all the variables previously mentioned).

If a customer brings in their own frame and it's old or poor quality (or both), I tell the customer "I'll do my best, but I can't guarentee what will happen as I work on this frame" AND I charge them a "pre-frame" fee of $25. This fee is on top of any charges for labor, new mats, glass, etc. (I don't charge this fee if the frame is one I or the previous owner built.) I've added this fee to the "Specials" area of my LifeSaver Software, so I just toggle the box on, and away we go. I don't even mention it to the customer since it's not negotiable.

I consider my "pre-frame" fee the same as a corkage free in a restaurant. I need to be compensated for my time while fixing someone else's bad/cheap frame.

Hey, this is my first post on The Grumble! Hello to the other "blackiris" shop out there--sometimes we get each others shipments, don't we? :) It was good to meet you in Appleton in April!
 
Well, that was freaky seeing another Black Iris around, the names didn't match, I thought maybe the other Black Iris developed an alter ego! We all do from time to time.

Welcome to the Grumble JoAnn! What a shining example for all new Grumblers too, you filled out your profile. You are off to a great start.
 
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