What makes the very best cut?

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Ceefive

Ceefive

Grumbler
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Posts
29
Loc
North Massachusetts
I have had a lot of trouble since I started to try to perfect my cuts. I had a homemade table measure guide and a mitre saw I used for years with pretty good results. Now I got into one of the Clearmount systems and I absolutely hate it! It has been nothing but trouble to me and I am having a hard time getting an accurate cut. Whole system is FOR SALE at a great price for whoever wants it. It has two mitre saws on it and I am keeping one.
I am interested in the finest professional cutting system out there, either chopper or Mitre and I don't much care what it costs. I want the best and most accurate. Any suggestions?
 
Ceefive said:
So you feel that the Chopper is better than say the double head mitre saw? Thanks
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No. Just different. If you are cutting realistically 3-10 frames a day.... and ordering in half your frames chop... a morso is great. Quiet, and you don't need a dust collector system.

IF you are chopping 25+ frames a day and have the room, noise abatement, can pass the fire marshal, get the city varience, and stock lots of moulding... double miter is the way to go.

It's not the tool; it's the loose nut between the pedal and the floor that determines the quality. I've seen some absolutely fantastic consistant chops made on a 16" blade mounted to a shaft between two pillow blocks mounted on the underside of a dinning table made into a table saw, run off the rear drum on a VW that one of the guy drove to work that morning. Everthing was jigged on a slide tray.. They couldn't afford putty.

Visiting the work shops of the countries I go to, is more illuminating than their museums. Sometimes.
 
Not sure what you mean "ordering in half your frames chop". I am ordering about 400 ft of each moulding style I use (4 styles) and cut them until they are gone. I only build a few hundred frames a year, all for my own work. Noise is no problem and I don't have to answer to anyone as I work in my own basement. I have all kinds of power tools as it is. I am just looking for the most accurate system I can find which is the most hassle free.
 
Sometimes the accuracy of your cuts lies in how you operate your equipment. I know some framers who own the top-of-the-line choppers and dedicated miter saw systems and they also have to use a miter sander after every cut to true up their miters. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it is simply how we calibrate our equipment and the methods we use to operate that equipment.

I own a Phaedra system, a design similar to your Clearmount system, and have had no problems in the nearly 19 years that I have owned it. I am not an expert in mitering frame moulding by a long shot but I can get consistently accurate miters most times with my Phaedra and a pair of plain ol' Makita LS-1030 chop saws. You can't account for squirrely grain or knots or other imperfections in the grain of some moulding wood but generally you should get fairly consistent chops no matter which system you use as long as you understand a few basic things about your equipment:

  • Most saws need fine tuning out of the box.
  • There are few saw blades that are suitable for the fine mitering of frame moulding.
  • Measuring tables need to be calibrated before they will produce consistently accurate cuts.
  • Your stance and the way you move the saws through the wood can have a bearing on the accuracy of your miter cuts.
  • You have to keep your saw blades properly sharpened at all times to ensure quality of your miter cuts.
  • You can make accurate mitered cuts with less expensive equipment as long as you understand and are willing to accept the limitations of the equipment and capitalize on the equipment's good points.
Maybe you can save yourself some money and frustration by learning more about the system you have before you invest in an expensive saw system and find out that it didn't improve the quality of your cuts.

Good luck.

Framerguy
 
I agree with what you say. With the Phaedra system, you are using the actual table of the saw and its guides to support the moulding.Worse case scenario, you can slightly adjust your mitre saws fences for more accurate cuts. I can't do that with this system.The back fence is part of the extrusion. On mine, the system is laid on top of the saws and bolted down and I can not get a perfect flat cutting surface with this 11 ft long thing no matter what I do. I prop the drooping ends of it up and there is an inconsistantcy of the table height ( a step)where the saw blade goes through it of 1/16".The Makita saw which is on the right, will not make a proper mitre. Something is out, and when I put it into the mitre sander, it starts cutting at the same inside corner every time. It does not matter what moulding I use or how I hold it. I have a Dewalt on the other side and those cuts are consistant and a lot closer to the mark. I have put way too much time into this thing, and I have learned to despise it. Hey, some people seem to like these things, but I want out. I started with one I built out of oak and MDO plywood and used it for 11 years with hardly a problem.I was looking for an improved measuring and cutting system. So now I am looking for the best thing I can get and try to avoid any more hassles. I have lost some money and a lot of time on this deal as it is and I am very unhappy, to say the least. Thanks.
 
Tom, I think for your situation, out of the box, even a use Morso will give you what you're looking for. Keep the blades sharp, keep the machine clean, and keep the spouse happy and your life can be a thing of joy. :thumbsup:

Good used Morso... $900-1,400 depending on how desperate the seller and how many spare blades.

As for my comment about "ordering in half your chops".. a lot of shops will chop some and order chops of other mouldings.
 
Baer Charlton said:
Tom, I think for your situation, out of the box, even a use Morso will give you what you're looking for. Keep the blades sharp, keep the machine clean, and keep the spouse happy and your life can be a thing of joy. :thumbsup:

Good used Morso... $900-1,400 depending on how desperate the seller and how many spare blades.

As for my comment about "ordering in half your chops".. a lot of shops will chop some and order chops of other mouldings.
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A little dyslexia kicking in there, eh Baer??? I am quite satisfied with my cuts. I think it's C-5 who wasn't a happy camper.:sleep:

Jo, it's quite like the effect that proper stance has on a mat cutter and the resulting cuts. We have discussed this many times over the years but I guess there wasn't any opportunity to compare stance with getting good miters until now.

There is alot more flex in a chop saw than there is in a dedicated 2 head enclosed miter saw like a Pistorious by virtue of their intended uses and resulting construction. And you can cause the blades to enter and pass through the wood at different angles and pressures applied to the saw handles if you aren't consistent with your approach and stance. Stand in front of most any regular chop saw and grasp the saw handle, be it a vertical or horizontal D-type handle or the common straight handle, and try to flex it back and forth. Move it through its range of motion and try to deflect it one way or another. You will understand more fully what I am talking about. Any visible movement in the saw blade will translate in a poor cut if not compensated for when the machine is in operation. You can't always fix what's lacking in one of these saws, and there is bound to be something wrong with them when compared to the cutting standards we need to have to miter frame moulding but you can minimize somewhat the effects they have on your finished cut by using a consistent and proper stance when operating the equipment.

I put way more patience and work into getting my saws to cut as close to dead vertical and not one minute off of 45 degrees than most would care to expend but I can safely say (and those of you who have visited my shop can attest) that I get consistently closed miters from a tiny half inch document frame to the widest tallest moulding I can fit into a 10" miter saw and I don't own a miter sander. It is all in the saws and how I use them.

I don't pretend to be an expert in mitering, heck, I wouldn't know the first thing to do with a dedicated miter saw like a CTD or a Valliani (?) as I have used this simple setup for my entire framing career. But I will preach 'till the preacher himself leaves about calibration and maintenance of your equipment to ensure accuracy in your work and I will always believe in it wholeheartedly. Properly sharpened good quality saw blades and a properly calibrated and maintained saw/saws are the key to accurate miters, in my opinion, and not the how much the saw costs. That was the reason for my suggestion that C-5 look at what he has now and critique his use of the equipment and how it is set up before he commits to spending more money for something that may not be the answer to begin with.

FGII
 
We switched from a Mors0 to a (single blade) saw system in 2005, and the quality of the product has greatly improved. The mors0 has been sitting there for a year, collecting dust. In fact, if anyone is looking to buy a very gently used Mors0 with 3 (or is it 4) sets of blades, let me know.

Have you tried contacting Winnie Bates from Clearmount/NE Packaging? Winnie is extremely nice, and will literally bend over backwards to help you understand the product's operation and calibrate it correctly. She is also a grumbler. I'm sure that whatever the issue is, it can be resolved.
 
Winnie has gone out of her way to help me with this issue, and I only have the best to say about them as a business and their support. I would recommend them highly to anyone.
Last night I removed the Makita mitre saw and turned it back to a one saw system and the results are MUCH better. (I will now try to ebay the brand new Makita saw.) The biggest problem seemed to be with the cuts of the Makita. There are still other issues with this system. The table needs a lot of supporting to try to get a perfect even surface along the lenght. It probably should have several leveling devices along the lenght like some others I have seen (like the measure mate and others)and a support leg at the end (which they tell me they will soon have). I don't know about some, but I want a perfectly flawless flat surface to set that moulding on.
Bottom line, I am still looking for a really good two head cutting system. I may have to wait until the next trade show. Just looking for recommendations for the best one out there. (Everyone I have called tells me theirs is the best)
 
Is that the Cassese saw Mike? I thought they were fantastic, not kwite zoomy enough for my needs but it would certainly be a minimum set up option if opening a new store.

My thought though would be to make the most of what you've got Frank, if need be consider a Morsø as they are very easy to use and would certainly cover the small demand you have for cutting.
 
No ours is a relatively low end single saw system. Phaedra with stand, DeWalt saw, home made vac system (using wet dry vac motor).

Mike
 
Frank,
I think you came up with your own best solution... Get thee to a trade show.

Most of the models available are on display and each has its proponents.

I too have a chopper, though mine is a 50 year old Jyden, that doesn't get much use any more (not for sale though). I first purchased a Phaedra system, and later moved on to a Brevetti Prisma Maxi after looking at the options shown at the Atlanta show a few years ago...the miter sander is relegated to cleaning up miters for re-gluing.

The show in Las Vegas at the end of January (WCAF) will have a good representation of both saw and chopper models. The show specials go a long way to cover the cost of attending the show.
 
FWIW, I'm pretty sure the Frame Square Rabbit Saw is the most accurate single mitre saw available. They're been making it for more than 30 years. The only draw back to it is it's a space hog unless it's in a corner situation as its arms and fences are at 90 degrees to each other. It's a sliding table saw, the most accurate cross cutting saw ever devised. It's also darn near fool proof and producs very little dust.
 
Mike Labbe @ GTP said:
No ours is a relatively low end single saw system. Phaedra with stand, DeWalt saw, home made vac system (using wet dry vac motor).

Mike
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Hi Mike - Which Dewalt is this please? Believe it or not I use a Nobex Champion Saw with 3 EZ Measure Systems next to it, but can no longer cope with Minerva/Polymer/Plastic Mouldings and want to get a saw instead that can use the existing measures too and one that will give me spot on mitres..!

My UK collleagues on the forum here swear by Morsos ironically, I don't have the budget or space for a morso.

Dewalts I've seen are the DW713 and the DW777.

Thanks,

Sean
 
CeeFive

If you grab your blade and wiggle it - does it move?

If there is any noticeable side to side movement - you have potential to have a bad cut.

The only thing other than luck to keep the cuts consistant is balancing the force on both sides of the blade, which may be "hoped" by crossing your fingers, and...
 
Warren Tucker said:
FWIW, I'm pretty sure the Frame Square Rabbit Saw is the most accurate single mitre saw available. They're been making it for more than 30 years. The only draw back to it is it's a space hog unless it's in a corner situation as its arms and fences are at 90 degrees to each other. It's a sliding table saw, the most accurate cross cutting saw ever devised. It's also darn near fool proof and producs very little dust.
Click to expand...

I use this saw, but can't say I am overly impressed - does have a huge footprint - but also chips almost every cut regardless of the blade & table speed.

Well built & easy to use though!
 
I would put the Peterman sliding table saw up against the Frame Square saw any day.

I also think the CTD single arm saw is the best chop saw on the market-

But regardless of what saw you use, the correct blade with a good combination of teeth and hook angle can make a huge difference.

There is a big difference between coming into a moulding primarily from the top and entering/exiting from the side and the hook angle and tooth configuration needs to be considered.

I also do not think a chopper works well with heavy compo (ok it will work well for the first few cuts :) ) - so maybe buy those as chops and use a chopper for those mouldings better suited to be chopped.

Dust is a big consideration and if your shop is not configured to have the saw separated from your fitting area.........
 
I'm happy enough with my Prism CE and Tenryu blades. It works much better now with the Tenryu 80 tooth 10" carbide blades than the blades I had at first. Quieter, cleaner cuts. If I were cutting more volume I'd get a double mitre system Pistorius EMN-12 or some such with the same blades. Morso or Jyden choppers were all I ever cut with for 20 years. A good saw will cut wider and more difficult profiles at times than any chopper. There are time when I'd like a chopper as well but not often.
 
I'm glad someone else also noticed this is a 3 year old thread. With me being such a newbie grumbler I just thought I would keep my mouth shut and watch where this went...:icon21:
 
we're better than the government!
 
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