Question What kind of consumables do underpinners use and related

[Justan]

Hi All,

I'm a neophyte at framing. I have an opportunity to buy a F-T model 5100 underpinner. This is functionally new, has all the original parts, manuals, and related, and has been in storage for a long time.

I understand that that F-T no longer supports this particular model, but seek your help in learning what parts of underpinners in general have a fairly short service life and what parts are considered consumables?

For instance, what does this model use for V nails? What does it use for cartridges for the V nails?

In general, how many parts on most pneumatic underpinners have a service life of between 1 and 5 years?

I'm good at repairing things, and know someone who can fabricate metal parts if needed, but that is pricy.

All and all, I would save about $800 buying this particular underpinner, compared to buying a similar, but manufacturer-supported used underpinner.

F-T says that they support their products for 10 years after they stop manufacturing a particular model. Are there manufacturers of underpinners who provide parts for longer than this?

Thanks in advance and hope you have a Happy 4th of July

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Manufacturers are required to support their product for I believe 8 years after stopping the manufacturing of the product. Fletcher parts can be found for quite a while but there is always the unknown. Buy a spare driver/hammer since this is one part that will wear out eventually.

As far as other parts, a machine shop can make them after the manufacturer stops. Other than that there are small plastic hoses or seals that can wear but these can most likely be found elsewhere.

V-nails will be available almost indefinately.

 

[wpfay]

Perhaps this thread will shed some light on your decision.

 

[Justan]

Buy a spare driver/hammer since this is one part that will wear out eventually.

Unless the same driver/hammer were used on other underpinners, they offer no replacements. Do you, per chance, know the service life of these parts?

As far as other parts, a machine shop can make them after the manufacturer stops. Other than that there are small plastic hoses or seals that can wear but these can most likely be found elsewhere.

Cool.

V-nails will be available almost indefinately.

What about the cartridges that the vnails go into? Are they generic or specific to a particular underpinner?

Thanks!

 

[Justan]

Perhaps this thread will shed some light on your decision.

Someone in the thread made a reference to an "impactor" that broke for them frequently. What is this part or assembly?

 

[JFeig]

Its the tool at the end of the pneumatic piston the pushes the nails into the wood. Think of it as a nail set that wears out.

 

[Justan]

Its the tool at the end of the pneumatic piston the pushes the nails into the wood. Think of it as a nail set that wears out.

Thanks!

About what is the service life for this? Does it fail after 1,000 uses, 100,000 uses or more? Or less???

Could this be made by a machine shop for less than a kilobuck?

 

[Mike Drury]

Justan, I owned this very machine and I can tell you they are problematic. The driver broke on a regular basis, I had 2 drivers so I was still able to work when the broken one was at FT being repaired. Eventually I boght a second 5100 then it occured to me, get a new v-nailer and get rid of the 5100's. I did and have never looked back. Peace, Mike

 

[JFeig]

Could this be made by a machine shop for less than a kilobuck?

It all depends on what you call a kilobuck. I have no idea what the pushers are made of for other V nailers; however, for the one that I have, it is made of square bar stock with a hole drilled in the center of the end and half of the end ground away (the part that does not touch the nails to allow for glue to escape - if there is any in that area).

 

[Justan]

Justan, I owned this very machine and I can tell you they are problematic. The driver broke on a regular basis, I had 2 drivers so I was still able to work when the broken one was at FT being repaired. Eventually I boght a second 5100 then it occured to me, get a new v-nailer and get rid of the 5100's. I did and have never looked back. Peace, Mike

Thank you! I'm probably never going to do a high rate of production with it. I'd bet at best maybe 10 frames per week. Given this do you think there will be service life issues in the near future?

Also, what did you get as a replacement??

 

[Justan]

It all depends on what you call a kilobuck. I have no idea what the pushers are made of for other V nailers; however, for the one that I have, it is made of square bar stock with a hole drilled in the center of the end and half of the end ground away (the part that does not touch the nails to allow for glue to escape - if there is any in that area).

A kilobuck is $1,000 US. That is slightly above my savings in buying this particular one, compared with another good condition used underpinner. Were i to have this part fabricated, do you think it would be $1,000?

 

[Bob Doyle]

I would have thought that a KBuck was either 2.24 dollars or 1024 dollars depending whether I was looking at a scale or RAM.

I've never had to do anything with my VN2plus. I have no backup hammers, pushers or even air tubes. It's over 6 years old. Am I living on borrowed time? It's been great, except for the glue buildup I have to scrape off my used mat blades.

 

[Jim Miller]

The model 5100 underpinner was a good entry-level machine for hobbyists and occasional framers, such as some photographers and artists. That design was not intended for professional or production framing, but since Fletcher is generally a suppier of heavy-duty framing machines, a lot of professional framers bought them and were disappointed in the service life.

The 5100 design was unique in that the fastener was driven by spring-tensioned impact. The mechanism was simple, but prone wear. Other manual and pneumatic underpinner designs are more durable.

If I were you I'd keep looking. Maybe you could find a used Fletcher 5500 or another similar machine under $1,000. The current-design Fletcher 5500 is similar to the 5100 in size and ease of use, and manually operated by a footpedal. Unlike the 5100, the 5500 is made in Italy by Pilm, and it has a much better, more durable design than the 5100.

 

[Justan]

I would have thought that a KBuck was either 2.24 dollars or 1024 dollars depending whether I was looking at a scale or RAM.

I guess i had that coming

I've never had to do anything with my VN2plus. I have no backup hammers, pushers or even air tubes. It's over 6 years old. Am I living on borrowed time? It's been great, except for the glue buildup I have to scrape off my used mat blades.

What is a VN2plus?

Why is glue build up a common problem? Do most use the underpinner when the glue is wet?

 

[Justan]

The model 5100 underpinner was a good entry-level machine for hobbyists and occasional framers, such as some photographers and artists. That design was not intended for professional or production framing, but since Fletcher is generally a suppier of heavy-duty framing machines, a lot of professional framers bought them and were disappointed in the service life.

The 5100 design was unique in that the fastener was driven by spring-tensioned impact. The mechanism was simple, but prone wear. Other manual and pneumatic underpinner designs are more durable.

If I were you I'd keep looking. Maybe you could find a used Fletcher 5500 or another similar machine under $1,000. The current-design Fletcher 5500 is similar to the 5100 in size and ease of use, and manually operated by a footpedal. Unlike the 5100, the 5500 is made in Italy by Pilm, and it has a much better, more durable design than the 5100.

Thanks!

The 5500 is a cool one, that I’d be happy with. But what do you speculate as a reasonable service life for the 5100 that I'm looking at?

I'm in no hurry. The key detail about this one is that it is fairly close to me, at only 300 miles away. The savings comes from a lack of shipping costs and that amounts to about $300. That is clearly not worth it if it is a POS. The sellers are long time professionals and they say it is functionally new, with less than 1 hour of use. I'm guessing that due to age any air seals will need replacing.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

After reading through the thread that Wally posted I would start rethinking the purchase unless you are getting it for practically nothing.

Let me ask how much you are paying for the machine. I have tracked down some great deals recently on the machine I own which is the ITW/AMP VN42. Most recent price new was $2600 new but these have come up for less in the past 6 months.

Sorry but I had a customer come in while others were posting.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

I've never had to do anything with my VN2plus. I have no backup hammers, pushers or even air tubes. It's over 6 years old. Am I living on borrowed time? It's been great, except for the glue buildup I have to scrape off my used mat blades.

The VN42 is in my opinion the most durable/versatile machine you can buy. Shouldn't need anything before about 20,000 frames. Parts are carried by many sources and can be had at a moments notice.

Now for the glue build up, use a good glue like Corner Weld or another comparable brand and use less so it does not ooze out. I periodically need to break down a ready made frame and even with no glue ooze I find that the glue is stronger than most wood. When broken there is usually some wood from the opposing corner still glued to the miter.

 

[Justan]

After reading through the thread that Wally posted I would start rethinking the purchase unless you are getting it for practically nothing.

Let me ask how much you are paying for the machine. I have tracked down some great deals recently on the machine I own which is the ITW/AMP VN42. Most recent price new was $2600 new but these have come up for less in the past 6 months.

Sorry but I had a customer come in while others were posting.

Thanks i'm looking for feedback from knowledgeable people and this group is that and more.

The seller is asking $900 and this was before i found out the device is not supported. I'd be happy with any good underpinner. My goal is to spend ~ $1500 delivered.

 

[Justan]

The VN42 is in my opinion the most durable/versatile machine you can buy. Shouldn't need anything before about 20,000 frames. Parts are carried by many sources and can be had at a moments notice.

I'll look into this model,

Now for the glue build up, use a good glue like Corner Weld or another comparable brand and use less so it does not ooze out. I periodically need to break down a ready made frame and even with no glue ooze I find that the glue is stronger than most wood. When broken there is usually some wood from the opposing corner still glued to the miter.

That explains it. Okay i have to ask, is there a reason why these are often nailed with the glue wet? Is it time efficiency or does it make for a stronger joint?

 

[wpfay]

There is much discussion about that on this forum, but suffice to say, I see the underpinner as a way to expedite joining frames. If I had to glue and clamp, then v-nail there would be no advantage time wise.

As far as us guessing the longevity of the 5100...it would be just that, a guess. I seemed to remember that the machine was short lived in the professional community as pointed out by Jim Miller. I would be very hesitant to buy a machine with a known faulty track record. Look in the Commercial section of the Grumble. Tom Reigle had a Euro underpinner for sale at a real good price. It is probably one of the strongest machines of its kind made and would probably last a couple lifetimes of production work with little maintenance.

 

[Jim Miller]

Justan, the 5100 is a manual, mechanical machine, not pneumatic. So if you buy that one, you need not be concerned about air seals. Manual, mechanical underpinners require frequent lubrication of all the moving parts, which would wear badly if not lubricated. In the best of circumstances, the friction surfaces will eventually wear out.

Pneumatic underpinners require an up-front investment for an air filter/lubricator, and you need to empty the moisture trap and add lubricant once or twice a year. Little other maintenance is needed. The air filter/lubricator dispenses a partial drop of lubricant into the cylinders every time the machine is used. The filter removes particulate debris and moisture, both of which are harmful to any type of pneumatic machine. Locate the air filter/lubricator on the machine or as close as possible, since just a few feet of air hose or pipe would condense moisture and accumulate debris.

I have been using pneumatic underpinners for almost 20 years, and have yet to replace any pneumatic cylinders. Most pneumatic underpinners will last indefinitely if they are supplied clean, dry, lubricated air. Trouble is, most framers just plug them into a handy air hose with no concern about the quality of the air. If ordinary "shop air" is used to operate an underpinner, you can expect troubles, which might come as early as 5,000 frames or so. As the cylinders' seals and polished surfaces are scratched and worn by particluate debris, and moisture corrodes the polished steel moving parts, air leaks develop. The first symptom usually is a need to boost air pressure in order to join hardwood mouldings. Eventually, the cylinders will actually "hiss" from the leaking air.

Of course, it is necessary to keep any underpinner clean and free of glue buildup. That sort of mess could clog the driving pin. An accumulation of glue at the vortex of the fences would prevent tight joins, as well. Globs of dried glue on the clamp pads would cause dents in moulding fnishes.

Whatever machine you buy, just keep it clean and lubricated.

 

[Bob Doyle]

I'm with Wally. Using a corner vise and gluing I might as well still be using brads as a vnailer wouldn't have been a time saver. But I was sold the idea that the vnails did the clamping together of the corner while the glue dried.

I have vnailed after the glue set up and the clamps had the potential of opening up the corners. So where is the time savings?

Some mouldings "have" to be set up in a vise so knowing how to use many methods of joining is as important as knowing how to use a vnailer.

 

[Prospero]

My Euro 8001 manual was purchased in 1983 and has had almost daily use ever since. The only spare part it has had is the main spring and that was mostly my fault for trying to stack v-nails into a very hard moulding. It's never really had what you would call a sevice until recently. It had got into the habit of jamming over the last few years, which I put down to old age. One day I had a rush of blood and stripped it all down. The hammer had never been removed before and there was a buildup of oily gunk at the bottom. Cleaned it up, shoved it back in and it works like new.



....Having had that little moment of smugness it will probably explode in the morning.

 

[Rick Granick]

Welcome to the Grumble. It sounds like you have your priorities straight and a pretty realistic sense of what to look for and expect to spend. Be sure to check the Commercial Posts forum here on the Grumble. Good equipment is offered all the time, and there are a couple of regular Grumblers who refurbish and resell equipment too.
The suggestion of the ITW-AMP VN42 is excellent, but it may be more automated than you need for low volume production. If you can't find one in your price range, consider the ITW-AMP VN2+1. It has very effective pneumatic clamping but just requires a little more manual adjustments of stops, etc. It is also very ruggedly built, reliable, and easy to maintain. I've had one for many years and still love it. Whatever you do, heed Jim's advice on the air quality. It's easy to accomplish and will save you lots of time and effort in the long run.
Rick

 

[Jim Miller]

Some mouldings "have" to be set up in a vise...

Perfect joins happen when both pieces of moulding remain absolutely still during the joining process. If either of them moves, there is likely to be a gap somewhere. Most underpinners have only one vertical clamp, which needs to be placed exactly above the insertion point. If the clamp is in front of the insertion point, the outside of the corner usually tends to pop up, making a gap at the back or on the bottom of the joint. If the clamp is behind the insertion point, the inside of the corner pops up and usually makes a gap inside the corner or on top of the joint.

The design and placement of the clamping devices and the skill of the operator are key factors. If you are are good at postioning the clamp for each particular profile, and proficient at rigging custom fixtures in order to join certain troublesome profiles without using a vice first, you can achieve good results on nearly all mouldings. In the 15 years I used single-clamp underpinners (VN 2+1 and VN-42), I accumulated a large collection of fixtures fashioned out of wood, matboard, and cuts of acrylic sheeting. I gave them to the framers who bought the machines.

If you invest a little more and buy a machine with two vertical clamps, you can join nearly any moulding without using a vice first, and there's no need for special fixtures. But in any case, tight miters require skill in operating the machine. Practice, practice, practice. Or take a class.

 

[Rick Granick]

In the 15 years I used single-clamp underpinners (VN 2+1 and VN-42), I accumulated a large collection of fixtures fashioned out of wood, matboard, and cuts of acrylic sheeting. I gave them to the framers who bought the machines.

Some of my favorite little "aids" are blocks of varying densities of rubber that fill voids in profiles while evenly distributing the force. Some of these are loose and some are mounted on triangles of wood and/or on fender washers so they stick to the top clamp pad holder.
Rick

 

[Jim Miller]

Some of my favorite little "aids" are blocks of varying densities of rubber ...

Yes, Rick, I guess all users of single-clamp underpinners create an extensive collection of such devices. Necessity is the mother of invention. Years ago I went to an industrial distributor of plastics and picked up a couple of (free) neoprene and vinyl sheeting sample sets, each consisting of six or eight 3" squares of various thicknesses and densities. They were very handy in making fixtures for odd profiles.

However, that is a time-consuming process, and I'm pleased to report that it is no longer necessary with my 2-clamp machine.

 

[Rick Granick]

I've grown rather fond of my little resilient buddies, but I'm sure someday when my VN2+1 decides it's time to retire I will treat myself to a shiny 2-clamp model.
Rick

Or, are you saying single clamp v-nailer vs. two clamp v-nailer = manual mat cutter vs. CMC?

 

[Jim Miller]

Or, are you saying single clamp v-nailer vs. two clamp v-nailer = manual mat cutter vs. CMC?

We all have to respect budgetary constraints, of course. But yes, a 2-clamp machine is a huge advantage in making tight joints with minimum hassle.

That said, any underpinner is better than none. All of them will make perfect joints in the hands of a proficient operator, skilled and practiced in adapting the machine to the various profiles. The difference is in labor time, and convenience of setup and operation.

So, for a hobbyist or occasional framebuilder, a manual or less-sophisticated underpinner may be the best choice. For high production, a computerized underpinner may be the best choice. And there are plenty of choices in between.

In underpinners, like everything else, you get what you pay for.

 

[Paul Cascio]

The model 5100 underpinner was a good entry-level machine for hobbyists and occasional framers, such as some photographers and artists. That design was not intended for professional or production framing, but since Fletcher is generally a suppier of heavy-duty framing machines, a lot of professional framers bought them and were disappointed in the service life.

The 5100 design was unique in that the fastener was driven by spring-tensioned impact. The mechanism was simple, but prone wear. Other manual and pneumatic underpinner designs are more durable.

If I were you I'd keep looking. Maybe you could find a used Fletcher 5500 or another similar machine under $1,000. The current-design Fletcher 5500 is similar to the 5100 in size and ease of use, and manually operated by a footpedal. Unlike the 5100, the 5500 is made in Italy by Pilm, and it has a much better, more durable design than the 5100.

To call it "unique" is being kind, Jim. The original Fletcher-made underpinners will live in infamy as one of the biggest mistakes in framing history. Attempting to turning a giant point drive into an underpinner was a disaster, but it was great for producing and splitting small firewood. Only the Omega Saw comes to mind as a more horrible product.

Fletcher's current underpinners, which are made by Pilm, are pretty good machines from everything I've heard.

 

[Jim Miller]

To call it "unique" is being kind, Jim.

I like to be kind, Paul. And accurate. Thanks for noticing.

 

[Paul Cascio]

If you really wanted to be accurate, you would have disclosed to the unsuspecting newbie who asked the question, that you are on the Fletcher payroll. We've been through this before about your failure to properly disclose your affiliation.

People who ask a question have a right to know when the answer is not from neutral observer.

I will call you out on this every time I see it. Count on it.

If someone is going to make a major purchasing decision, they should know when the opinion they receive about a product is from someone on the payroll of that company.

 

[John Ranes II CPF GCF]

Professional input and responses....

Paul,

If a response is misleading or shows bias then your posting above would have been appropriate. I don't think that it was necessary for you to respond here.

Jim Miller's postings on this thread were accurate, truthful and full of detailed information. In a situation like this, I honestly feel that there is no ethical requirement to make comment about his affiliation with Fletcher-Terry. (I understand and appreciate that you may feel differently.)

To Justan, I would NOT recommend purchasing either of the older FT V-Lock underpinners. Paul's comment about them being a poor design (IMHO) is accurate. There exist many decent manual and pneumatic underpinners available today as alternatives to consider including the current range of Pilm/Fletcher machines.

As a consultant to The Fletcher-Terry Company for over 22 years, I own or have owned almost every single product that they sold to the framing industry, with the exception of the F-5000/F-5100.

John

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Yes, Rick, I guess all users of single-clamp underpinners create an extensive collection of such devices. Necessity is the mother of invention. Years ago I went to an industrial distributor of plastics and picked up a couple of (free) neoprene and vinyl sheeting sample sets, each consisting of six or eight 3" squares of various thicknesses and densities. They were very handy in making fixtures for odd profiles.

However, that is a time-consuming process, and I'm pleased to report that it is no longer necessary with my 2-clamp machine.

Now Jim, that statement is just wrong. I use the VN42 and have only once used anything to place under the clamp or anywhere else for that matter. It was a moulding with very jagged and brittle ornaments. I grabbed a piece of styrofoam packing to prevent breaking the compo. I have had to make them for the Cassese, Putnam and the earliest Brevetti.

Once you have learned how to use the VN42 there is no need for extra junk around. I considered the 2 clamp Pilm with and without the Fletcher name on it and for a very small segment of moulding out there it would be an advantage. The majority of mouldings have no need for the 2 clamps and the fact that you can turn the one off still leaves it in the way. The additional clamp is also just one more thing that can go wrong.

The cost of ownership goes beyond purchase price. Cassese makes a great machine but they are expensive to buy and very expensive to keep alive. Manual V-nailers are dirt cheap to buy but are very hobbylike. The stripped down pneumatic Imnes that PAM Fasteners sells would be my only suggetion for a bare bones machine. Anything other than that would be the VN42. I've seen nearly every brand used till death and for total cost of ownership the VN42 is top dog.

2 or 3 frames a day and the $1,000 Imnes is the way to go. Anything beyond that the VN42 at $2,600 wins.

 

[Jim Miller]

I will call you out on this every time I see it. Count on it.

That's good of you, Paul. I'm sure the Grumble community rests easier knowing you are on patrol. You just never know when I might burst into a Fletcher sales pitch and mislead somebody.

Did you miss it when I suggested that the inquirer not buy the obsolete Fletcher machine he's considering?

 

[Jim Miller]

I considered the 2 clamp Pilm with and without the Fletcher name on it and for a very small segment of moulding out there it would be an advantage. The majority of mouldings have no need for the 2 clamps and the fact that you can turn the one off still leaves it in the way. The additional clamp is also just one more thing that can go wrong...

Justan seems to be looking for an entry-level underpinner, and it was a manual machine that he inquired about. A manual machine might be his best bet. The VN-42 might be overkill, and the same goes for any of the two-clamp designs by Imnes, ITW, Fletcher, Pilm, or others.

Since you're suggesting ITW, the VN-2+1 would probably be more in his range, and better than most manual underpinners. In used machines, there are probably more VN 2+1's than VN-42's on the secondary market, anyway.

 

[Paul Cascio]

Did you miss it when I suggested that the inquirer not buy the obsolete Fletcher machine he's considering?

No didn't miss it. It was expected. And it happened right before you steered him to the new Fletcher, whose double clamps you claim make all other nailers obsolete. But you conveniently never mentioned that you're on Fletcher's payroll. Pitch their products all you want, but not through veiled endorsements.

 

[Jim Miller]

Paul, I described how a 2-clamp underpinner design works and mentioned no names. There are at least three brands and several variations of 2-clamp underpinners available from USA suppliers, and they are all good machines. There was no mention of the Fletcher 2-clamp model, which is not new -- it has been around for years. My only mention of the word "obsolete" was in reference to the manual models that have been out of production for years. There was no endorsement of any particular 2-clamp model, veiled or otherwise.

But since you brought it up, the most sophisticated production underpinners have features like programmable controllers for automated setup and operation, bar-code scanners, multiple-channel and/or automatically-selected fastener magazines... and 2 vertical clamps. ITW/AMP has several such models, but they are relatively expensive. Their top model, the "MP Multichannel", sells for something over $10,000. Last time I looked, both Inmes and Fletcher offered 2-clamp machines of simpler design for less than half of that price, which would be practical for many small independent framers.

Has this thread gone far enough off the topic for you yet? Since you took it off-topic, why don't you put it back on track by answering Justan's questions?

Justan, I apologize for provoking Paul's personal attack. I hope you find an underpinner to serve you purpose. Welcome to the appropriately-named Grumble.

 

[Justan]

Thanks very much all for the comments!

I heard back this AM from F-T that they do not make parts for this particular underpinner. No one seems to know what specific v nails and cartridges are used with this machine. Between that and the general dislike of the machine stated here, it sounds as if it is best to let it go.

What has me slightly confused is that Jim Miller (and perhaps others) state this is a manual underpinner. According to the seller, who says that they were consultants to F-T for about 2 decades, this is a pneumatic. In addition, photos they provided clearly show this as a pneumatic device. Does this mean it is not a 5100?

The consensus here appears to be that the ITW line is #1, the Cassese line is probably #2 but expensive to maintain. How so is it more expensive to maintain? What are wearable parts?

2 clamp systems are preferred to 1 clamp systems.

Is the above about right?

How can I find out who does service for these in my area?

Fletcher says that they stop support for a product 10 years after it is discontinued. Of course they also said that they discontinued this underpinner in 2000, and here it is 2009 and they don’t provide parts, so they are not honest about how long they support a product. This is a horrid sign from an otherwise excellent company. Anyway, do other vendors of underpinners support their products longer?

What is needed to learn these devices? In other words, how to learn to make square joins? Is it self-evident or are there a variety of fine adjustments offered by the underpinners, which simply must be learned?

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Cassese uses very sophisicated controllers which require additional air lines and valve systems. The driver assembly also has catastrophic failure when it occurs. Too many parts that can fail and they do eventually.

 

[Jim Miller]

What has me slightly confused is that Jim Miller (and perhaps others) state this is a manual underpinner. According to the seller, who says that they were consultants to F-T for about 2 decades, this is a pneumatic. In addition, photos they provided clearly show this as a pneumatic device. Does this mean it is not a 5100?

If it is a pneumatic machine, then it is not a model 5100.

How can I find out who does service for these in my area?

Most picture framers maintain and repair their own machines, so most suppliers do not offer such services. UltraMitre on the west coast has excellent service technicians, who travel the country doing maintenance and repairs on framing equipment of all kinds. If you have a major need, call them and find out when their technician will be in your area.

Fletcher says that they stop support for a product 10 years after it is discontinued. Of course they also said that they discontinued this underpinner in 2000, and here it is 2009

Justan, Fletcher's policy is (and always has been, to my knowledge) to keep parts available for 7 years, not 10 years. Just to be sure, I phoned Fletcher a few minutes ago and verified that.

As you were correctly informed, the model 5100 was discontinued in 2000, and the parts that usually failed on that model have not been available for almost two years. Again, buying that used machine probably does not represent a good long term value -- when it fails, it's a goner.

The model 5100 was designed and manufactured by Fletcher. In contrast, most of the machines currently available are made in other countries -- such as in western Europe, Asia, and Brazil; and marketed internationally. [Probable exception: Pistorius.] Generally, whatever parts one might need for an underpinner these days would be imported and sold through a USA distributor, and not purchased from the manufacturer directly. That said, if you take good care of a current-design machine, it should give you years of trouble-free service.

What is needed to learn these devices? In other words, how to learn to make square joins? Is it self-evident or are there a variety of fine adjustments offered by the underpinners, which simply must be learned?

Most framers learn by trial-and-error, which is an OK way to do it if you have the time and material to invest. However, proper instruction goes a long way toward improving the results, teaches you tips & tricks you might never discover, and could save you from repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

Maybe you could go to Jeff Rodier's shop and take lessons from him. Unlike most framers, he perfectly joins all profiles on his single-clamp VN-42 without the aid of custom-made fixtures. And he welcomes visitors.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

2 clamp systems are preferred to 1 clamp systems.

99% of the time one clamp is preferred to two. On some of the V-nailers the clamp does not move with the driver/block. These are the ones that people create jigs and spacers for use.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Maybe you could go to Jeff Rodier's shop and take lessons from him. Unlike most framers, he perfectly joins all profiles on his single-clamp VN-42 without the aid of custom-made fixtures. And he welcomes visitors.

You are right Jim that I always welcome visitors. Jerry Ervin just left an hour ago. Jerry didn't need any lessons just a social visit. I am always happy to show anybody how to use a piece of equipment.

 

[Bob Doyle]

If you really wanted to be accurate, you would have disclosed to the unsuspecting newbie who asked the question, that you are on the Fletcher payroll. We've been through this before about your failure to properly disclose your affiliation.

People who ask a question have a right to know when the answer is not from neutral observer.

I will call you out on this every time I see it. Count on it.

If someone is going to make a major purchasing decision, they should know when the opinion they receive about a product is from someone on the payroll of that company.

Paul, Jim also writes for the trade magazines. Should he list those as well? When I was a rep for a manusfacturer I was considered an honest rep. I knew the oither guys products and I knew all my guy's products. I knew when one of our products was a better fit and when one of theirs was. I would never have bad mouthed their line of products although they didn't always dothe same for my product lines. And the equipment we both sold was very expensive and specialized.

I knew then, and I know now that if you over sell your products, if you are percieved as lying about your products that the other guys products it will come back to haunt you. It will destroy your reputation in your feild. Say what you want about Jim Miller he has a solid reputation in this feild. If he is highlighting a product's features then he may also be steering the buyer toward what to look out for in the other product lines. I haven't read Jim's posts in here, but I can say that in areas of equipment and framing technique I do hold his opinion in high esteem. (Politics now.... actually there too he has my grudging respect )

 

[osgood]

Cassese uses very sophisicated controllers which require additional air lines and valve systems. The driver assembly also has catastrophic failure when it occurs. Too many parts that can fail and they do eventually.

Jeff,
Obviously you have had experience with more Cassese vee nailers than I.
I have a Cassese 3099 Ultra which has a computer system into which I can program up to 1500 mouldings. The controllers and air lines are all self contained in the unit.

This machine is the best out of the four vee nailers I have owned. It has a number of unique features that allow it to join all the mouldings I use, so well that I have only had to use a teeny, weeny amount of corner putty on a handful of occasions in two years.
The only thing I'm sorry about this purchase is that I didn't make it many years ago.

I await my inevitable, 'catastrophic failure' in nervous anticipation, but will resist the temptation to hold my breath for it!

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Os, you have the creme of the crop of V-nailers. I guarantee thet it can not be bought for $2,600 US Dollars. They make beautiful machines but when the time comes the repairs are as pricey as the purchase.

Nobody will ever accuse me of dogging the quality/precision/crafmanship of a Cassese but I also don't buy BMW's for the same reason. If I were a distributor joining 50,000 frames per machine per year I would most likely use Cassese. That would make it easy to justify the cost because I could scrap it without crying about money spent.

It's all about a balance between investment and return. I've got about 10,000+ frames on my VN42 in 18 months without a single complaint and bet I have another 10,000 before I need a simple hose. The programmable function that I don't have is nice but again expensive. I did over 700 frames last month and would have saved a couple hours if it were programmable.

 

[Justan]

> If it is a pneumatic machine, then it is not a model 5100.

Okay. What did F-T make during the time that is pneumatic?

> Most picture framers maintain and repair their own machines

I'm glad to know that.

Do you (or anyone) know how long vendors such as Cassese and ITW provide parts their underpinners?

> Maybe you could go to Jeff Rodier's shop and take lessons from him

If only I had the time and extra cash for that! It is always the best to learn in a 1:1 environment.

 

[Justan]

> 99% of the time one clamp is preferred to two. On some of the V-nailers the clamp does not move with the driver/block. These are the ones that people create jigs and spacers for use.

Thanks for 'splainin that.

 

[Justan]

>Cassese uses very sophisicated controllers which require additional air lines and valve systems. The driver assembly also has catastrophic failure when it occurs. Too many parts that can fail and they do eventually.

I think the key word here is “eventually.” Is Cassese known for a unusually short service life?

For some reason I'm drawn to the Cassese CS89 or CS810. Can anyone tell me if these are still in production and how long Cassese provides parts after they stop producing a model? Also can someone give me a phone number or web site for a Cassese distributor?

Thanks once again to all for the detailed replies!

 

[Warren Tucker]

I imagine the double clamp of the Fletcher Terry underpinners is merely a work around the machine’s main limitation: that it doesn’t have a top clamp that moves with the driver head. If the top clamp moves with the machine’s driver head, in effect the machine has an infinite number of top clamps, one for each position of the driver. Also, I don’t know if the FT has a rabbit clamp; our Cassese machines have a very strong rabbit clamp (Cassese used to call it “the claw”). It forces the two sides of a corner together adding a lot of stability to the joint when a v nail is fired. We don’t have any shop made jigs other than triangles. I’d strongly suggest a machine with a moveable top clamp that also moves down slightly as the v nail is fired.

Also, I think Jeff underestimates the value of a programmable machine. Our CS 4095 is similar to Osgood’s CS 3099 but has a magazine that holds 5 different v nail cartridges whose selection is also programmable. (You can see it at our web site under the Outlet’s backroom gallery.) We also have two CS 486’s that we use for back up that have the same engine as the CS4095 but are not programmable. Lynn, who has been making frames for 17 years greatly prefers the 4095 to the less sophisticated machines. She hates it when the 4095 is out of service and we make just 30 frames on an average day. The programmable joiner is a lot faster and a lot less tedious. We’d have to replace it if someone stole it. It’ll never ware out, at least not in my lifetime. Every 5 years we pack it up and send it out to Active Sales for tune up. The only thing not easily replaceable is the file containing our programmed joining instructions and I’m told that can be recovered.