What is "minimal Value" to you?

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Phoneguy

Phoneguy

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
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678
Loc
New Westminster, B.C. Canada
In Kistler's Book Picture Framing #1, on page 63 it says:
" Polyvinyl tapes such as 3M's #810 and #888 tapes are suitable adhesives for the majority of practical framing jobs, in which the artwork to be framed is of minimal value. These tapes are strong, stable and clean but not truly reversible...."
So what is minimal value...I have an order for serveral large art prints. The cost the consumer ~$50 Can each. Most of them require oversize mat board as they are greater than 40" in one dimension. In the past I have used 3M #810, and more recently framers PH7 tape...can't remember the exact name right now. Conservation quality hasn't been asked for or specified. Is this really open to wide variations in thought or is there a hard and fast rule that people follow? Thanks
James
 
Funny, I have never used 810 for hinging. I've always used filmoplast P-90 or linen tape. Linen tape is stronger so minimal value or not, I would go with the strongest for something that size. I tend to dry mount most of that decorator art, I bet I hinge one out of twenty.

Just as an aside why is it that everybody address's them as "Kistler" or "Goltz" or "Bluestone" etc. I've seen it several times lately and it just seems impolite. Even if I were best buddy's with any of them I would still address them by their first name, "Vivian Kistler", "Jay Goltz" "Marc Bluestone". It is a respect thing. We don't see anyone saying "Carter" said this or that. It is always "Bob Carter" or "Bob". I wonder if it is a generational thing.

I'm not singling you out Phoneguy, I've just seen it a lot recently........I'm a touch cranky, I'm 50 now you know.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.....
 
To me it kind of implies that they are very well known, such as Einstein's Theory of Relativity.
 
Kistler....I think it comes from a book thing for me..I would look the author up Lastname, Firstname. If I knew the author and was introducing her to you I would use Firstname Lastname. If I had said Vivians book I am not sure if people would know who I meant...Perhaps, but I am new to this community. No disrespect is intended. At work, when I have put together a presentation or in a couple of cases a course it is refered to as "Abbott's" and only James if further clarification is needed! Perhaps brevity is simplicity? I am quickly coming up on 42 myself and like yourself I do see how language use is changing. At lst I dun typ lik this and heart thins yu no!!!
 
Gosh, I came from the Mr. & Mrs. era. Strange to me now, that if someone had written "Vivian's book".......etc.........I wouldn't have given it a thought! And that's because we talk to her and she talks to us on this thread and HH's. I feel like I've known for years (I mean that in a gentle way Vivian Kistler ;) , though she doesn't know me from Adam! Okay, from Eve!
 
"Minimal value" is the item you could replace without great expense or inconvenience.

Turns out it's a more limited category than you would imagine.
 
Originally posted by Sherry Lee:
though she doesn't know me from Adam! Okay, from Eve!
Click to expand...
If you'd wear a hat, everybody'd know you!


http://www.go-star.com/framer/growbusiness1.gif

man, it's late. I've gotta go to bed!

Betty
 
Originally posted by Emibub:
Funny, I have never used 810 for hinging. I've always used filmoplast P-90 or linen tape. Linen tape is stronger so minimal value or not, I would go with the strongest for something that size. I tend to dry mount most of that decorator art, I bet I hinge one out of twenty.
Click to expand...
Ok, so I just pulled open my drawer with tapes in it and pulled out the two "specialty tapes" that I have right now.
1. Framers Tape II by Specialty Tapes, Archival Grade Adhesive...clear ...Removes safely with minimal heat recommended uses: Hinging, mending, sealing, mounting and reinforcing.
2. PH7-70 Conservation Tape by UK Industrial Tapes....white...pH7 neutral adhesive paper tape. High initial grab, non-ageing and will not yellow.Water based Acrylic Adhesive. High Initial tack, permanent and can be dificult to remove.
3. And of course the good old 810.

The matte size is 45 3/4 x 27 3/4....Pretty long and not to tall.

I plan to cut a triple window matte with a 5" border (included in the above measurements), Foam core shadow line between the top two mattes and the bottom matte....Art, 1/2"reveal matte, foam board, 1/4" reveal matte and top matte..backed by corugate (frame quality).
I feel that the 5" border will be strong enough to hang the art from....
Besides I don't have the equipment to do any permanent mounts!

Is this bad?
James
 
Just did one of these yesterday, coincidentally. I used Framers Tape II, because it is a currently reorderable print. After having not one, but TWO drymounts go south (and for different reasons) in one day at Christmas time, I am reminded about why I HATE drymounting!
 
"minimal" value:
Photographs that the customer has the negative or original file of, so that they can be easily reprinted.

Portal posters.

Open edition K*****e prints

Calendar pages

Anything the customer doesn't care about enough to use an acid free mat on.

I think what the term means in context is that, since it is not reversible, this tape should not be used on anything toity that bits of acid free tape stuck to the back of would "de-value". To my mind, this is a much narrower definition of what NOT to use it on.
 
James ;
minimal" value Is my mind a relative term.
It also doesn't have to relate to the dollar value of a piece ,but normally it is an important factor.

It is relative since what is important to one person may not be to others ( the drawing of a child that is no longer living may be as valueable to their parents as any Rembrandt) and the dollar value an item cost also depends on the wealth /Budget of that person also ( my pocket book and Donald Trump's can stand worlds of differance for the same expenditures).

Therfore I would suggest that you first ask the client how important preserving the work is to them( while you consider how easily it can be replaced if anything you do defaces it).
Next I would consider how likely this work is to appreciate in value.( On HH their is a good friend of mine offering a copy of one of the original New Orleans Jazzfest Posters which in some circles is worth thousands of dollars TODAY)

I say today since when it was originally offered it sold for about $15 and was just another festival poster.
It might also be prudent to consider another topic found on HH about; Liability if as a framer we deface/damage a work even with the clients knowledge and signed release form.
They aren't expected to KNOW the true or future value of a work .But we as trained PROFESSIONALS are and can possibly be held accontable for not treating the work properly at alater date.

So my suggestion is unless the client says it has litle sentimental value and it is something that can easily be replaced at a low dollar value
you not use anythng that can't be reversed .especially since hinges are such a small part of the total work and cost.But if it meets all those exceptions then maybe you can /should use 810 or what ever you see fit. MAYBE!
BUDDY
 
Originally posted by Phoneguy Canuck:

Besides I don't have the equipment to do any permanent mounts!

James
Click to expand...
PMA Adhesive doesn't "require" a press to use. I like it for smaller prints, this one would be too big for PMA. Get a roll and try it out. Expensive initially, preceptually, but you do get to charge the customer for it.
 
Mount it on reversable archival fom board (Bainbridge's Artcare Restore). The additional cost is minimal and I've been thinking of using it for everything I dry mount.

If a print is signed, I generally would never mount and would either linen tape hinge, or if an original or a high value print, mulberry hinge. The only time I would mount an original or high value print would be if the print was very "warped" (not flat) and with the customers permission. I would then use the reversable archival fom-cor.


Dave Makielski

"You can't change the direction of the wind, but you can adjust your sails."
 
I would not hinge the work to the 5" border as you hinted in your last post. Hinge it to the back board (mount as some call it) with a T hinge.
 
Go to www.artfacts.org and click on standards then click on:
FRM-2000 Standard Guide for Maximum Preservation Framing  

This standard guide has been developed with the aim of preventing damage and providing maximum preservation when framing art and keepsakes. This document includes standard terminology and definitions, mandatory and recommended procedures and materials, spacing and fitting, hanging and display options, and recommendations for periodic maintenance.

There are published standards and guidelines that are supported by the industry. There will be more and more support visible in the future so it's best to be aware of the standards of the day and meet them as much as possible. It's an imprtant part of being a professional framer.
 
Is this really open to wide variations in thought or is there a hard and fast rule that people follow?
Click to expand...
YES! There is wide variations in thought on this subject. Just this week I have had 3 jobs come in to the Concord store that was framed elsewhere in town. They were all posters and had wrinkled badly. I suggested they take them back to the 2 framers that had done the jobs but they really wanted me to mount them. All 3 jobs had beautifully executed hinges with what looked like maybe wheat starch paste. The paper was very thin and the customers wanted the images to be smooth, not wavy.

Should I have told them that the pieces was "properly framed" and "have a nice day"?

It really is a juggling act sometimes. You have to give your clients what they want. Whether it is quality, price, design, or no wrinkles.

Everything doesn't require maximum preservation. I think that is what Vivian was trying to say.

The price paid for the posters and the size of the project to me screams for mounting. If these big ol things warp up, your customer may not bring it back to you to be repaired.
 
Value is difficult to pin down. Even a relatively cheap print print might become valuable one day, if in the future it is popular and rare.

The problem is we don't have any way to know which one out of a hundred print editions that might be.

One point in passing:
Don't be fooled by the claims of any supplier. NO pressure sensitive adhesive is suitable for preservation mounting. Anything water-soluble would be better, such as gummed linen tape, although its adhesive might discolor over time.

Yes, the so-called "heat-releasable" tapes will release, but the adhesive residue that migrates into the paper fibers will stay there. Removing pressure-sensitive adhesive residue is a tricky conservation job.
 
Thanks Jim for pointing out that claims made by some of the best Vendors aren't always completely accurate,just because they seem to serve a purpose we have always needed.( isn't that confuseing?)
But then You and Nona and others have done a good thing by recommending FACTS be used to establish a commonly held set standard Terms for us and vendors to go by.
BUDDY
 
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