What double mitre saw to buy from $4K - $9K ???

Create a Post
W

Wooden Indian

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Posts
7
Loc
Visalia, California
We need to replace the old double mitre CTD saw that we have with a new one. The old saw has already been sold.

I like the Casesse 960, but what else should we be looking at in the price range of the CS 960?

Is there one saw that is more popular than others?
 
Check out the Pistorius line. A really good machine! At least mine is.
thumbsup.gif
 
Thanks for the link. I hadn't come across those saws. Can you email a general run down of what you think positive/negative about the Prisma CE or Maxi? How long you've had it? Has it ever needed adjusting for a perfect mitre?

Thanks bigtime

Paul
 
Ledsome wins this battle hands down.

There are a lot of high quality saws out there, but Ledsome saws are the ones that I would invest my money in.

I have had mine about 3 years and it was used when I bought it. It is still just like a new piece of equipment. I have personally cut over 3000 frames with it and no longer use a miter sander.
 
My old Pistorius EMN is a workhorse and still cuts perfectly-angled miters. Wanna buy it?

Count me with Jerry: If I were buying a double miter saw today, it would be a Ledsome. Aside from having an excellent design for the saw itself, Gearold Ledsome has devised a much quieter, more compact dust collector than any others I have seen.
 
The saw you choose depends a lot on the service you have planned for it. I don't think there is a better saw than the Pistorius MN 100 with the special bearing package (I think the package is called the Larson package,the 100 means it's set up for 10" blades). The saw is accurate and fast but it's limited to molding only 2 1/2" wide. I think it runs a little over $9,000, though. We cut about 30 frames a day on ours. But, you'll need another way to cut wider molding; we use a Cassese 960 for wider molding. I'd hate to have to depend on the Cassese as my only saw. It's very slow and prone to failure, ours fails about 4 times a year and the failures are never welcome. The saw is incredibly complicated and it doesn't take much to make it fail.

We use a pistorius EMN for metal molding; it's as solid as a rock. It's reasonably fast, too. But it doesn't have the bearings for fast, accurate cutting plastered molding.

If speed isn't a problem, the Prisma is a very good saw and even with 10" blades it has a large capacity. We've had two. It's slow.

If you're doing any volume, I think having a saw for each application is close to ideal: One for under 2 1/2", one for over, and one for metal. We even have an SCMI sliding table saw for molding over 7". The SCMI's mitering capability is essentially unlimited.

We looked seriously at a leadsome saw and ultimately didn't like it. But, then, we have a central dust collection system (Oneida Air Systems). Whatever saw you get, dust collection is very important. The best dust collectors are cyclones vented outside; the next best are cyclones vented inside through filters. For a double miter saw you'll need at least a 2 hp cyclone; stay away from the single stage cheap collectors. A shop vac is almost useless except in a very limited service. It simply can't move the neceaasry volume of air.
 
Originally posted by Warren Tucker:
...We looked seriously at a leadsome saw and ultimately didn't like it...
Click to expand...
But Warren, you didn't say why the Ledsome was not your choice. Did you find a problem with it for your application, or was it the dust collector, or the price, or the capacity, or something else?
 
I really can't remember (we looked at the Ledsome about 8 years ago) but probably the blade size. Also, I think I remember it wasn't pneumatic. We also use much more powerful dust collectors -dust is the enemy in our shop.

We don't like blades over 10" because they aggravate any arbor runout and they tend to introduce more runout than 10" blades. Runout is a serious issue cutting leafed molding with plaster over the wood. Runout doesn't affect accuracy but it does tearout and blade life. We like to limit runout to .001" or less at the blade's circumference and that's easier with 10" blades.

There isn't anything wrong with the Ledsome, but I think there are better saws. Pistorius has been making the MN (stands for miter notcher) saws for the furniture and framing industry for a long time and they've gotten very good at it. So too, has Brevetti (Prisma). The hand fed Prisma with a 10" blade is one of the most accurate saws I've ever worked with, another is the Frame Square Rabbit saw. Both of these saws can cut wide moldings without having to resort to 12" blades.

Over the years our shop has been a proving ground for saws. We have used extensively: Frame Square, Brevetti, Schleicher, Pistorious, Cassese, SCMI, Altendorf, Ulmia. We do a lot of cutting and have done and we know something about it.
 
Thanks bigtime everybody... I can't say enough how much this posting is helping us to make an informed decision. I've received more quality info here than at the last convention in Vegas sitting through 3 classes from Casesse, ITW, and Pistorious.

For those keeping score, I'd have to say I'm leaning towards the Brevetti Prisma which I hadn't even heard of it until this posting.

Turns out another shop across town has one and their mitres are always perfect.
 
Warren I too have been dreaming of a double mitre also. I would think that a saw that can't cut over 2 1/2" would be a bit of a problem. Don't you think that would be extreamly limiting to a shop who only had one saw?
 
I'm sure you have all seen or heard the quote, " It ain't the jeans that make your butt look big."

I would suggest that it ain't the saw that gives you crappy cuts, it's the blade. Your old CTD was probably a darn good saw. It may have needed the bearings replaced, I can not imagine much else going wrong with a CTD, they are designed for high production, in factory like settings.

If you truly want a great cutting saw, call Larry at CTD, he will set you up with absolutely the best blades you will have ever used. I just bought another set from him a few days ago, unbelievable, cuts through hardwood like butter, with out a doubt, the cleanest, best, cut I have ever gotten from a saw.

About a year ago, he sold me some blades for my metal saw, same story, I have yet to sharpen them, the bearings on the saw need replacing, I'm still getting perfect cuts.

A great set of blades will turn any saw into a fine, precision, cutting machine.

It has always baffled me why picture framers will spend thousands on a saw, then operate it with $60.00 blades. Not only that, they will actually brag about the cheap blades they are using.

John
 
Jay, yeah, 2 1/2" limitation is a big issue; about 90% of the molding we cut is under that size, though. We have another saw for wider molding. Quality of cut and speed seem to require two different saws. If you can sacrifice either one, one saw will suffice.

If you're interested in quality cuts and versatlity and speed isn't a big issue, I don't think you can find a better saw than the Frame Square Rabbit saw. With a 10" blade, it'll cut molding 5" wide and 3" tall. It has an excellent clamping system. It's actually a better saw than the more expensive floor model. You can always build a stand for it. The Prisma CE is a little faster but its 10" blade is a little more limited. The Rabbit saw is a single miter saw and is extremely accurate because of its desigh. It takes up more space than traditional saws but it'll fit nicely in a corner. It's a sliding table saw and sliding table saws are the most accurate crosscutting table saws.

As to saw blades anyone is free to believe what he wishes but my experience, and it's been extensive, leads me to believe that Freud high AT and triple chip LU85's are as good as any more expensive blades. The real key to excellent cutting leafed molding as well as venerred panels is sharpness. Any blade, except maybe the new ceramic blades (they're too expensive for us to experiment with) will dull very fast cutting molding with plaster and that's what most leafed molding are. Last year we spent $1,432.00 on sharpening blades and close to $500 so far this year. An aluminum cutting blade will last years, a blade cutting leafed molding will last hours before needing sharpening. High AT blades make the best cuts but dull way faster than triple chip blades; we compromise in the frame shop by using Freud LU 85's and sharpening them frequently. In the cabinet shop we use High AT blades for veneers and sharpen them frequently, too.

We spend a lot of money on equipment and on blades; we're smart enough to take into account the empirical evidence we've accumulated over the years. Believe me, we've bought all the expensive blades out there in our quest for excellent cuts. We've even bought matched pairs of all left hand bevel and all right hand bevel blades (ATB blades without the alternate). None give better results than a sharp LU 85 and none stay sharp any longer.
Again, we've found the key is sharp blades and blades get dull faster that we'd imagined.

Now all this is true for 10" blades. We don't have enough experience with wider blades because we use them too infrequently to collect data on them. For years I thought more expensive blades did a better job cutting hard woods and we switched between blades when cutting hardwoods and soft woods. I think we've pretty much stoped that.

Bearings are very important if they are arbor bearings. I've come to the conclusion that no bearings are accurate enough except conical bearings for arbors and I'm willing to pay more for them. You can probably specify conical arbor bearings on any well made saw.
 
Information on the Brevetti is available from PAM Fastening www.pamfast.com
They are the US distributor for the Brevetti line of saws. I bought the Prisma Maxi a few years ago and have been very happy with it. I bought mine for around $5K, but the price is up because of increased manufacturing costs and the decline of the dollar to the euro. Last fall in Atlanta they were a tad over $7K.
I don't do a huge volume on a regular basis and really can't afford multiple saws. The choice of the Brevetti was made mainly because of its simplicity and capacity.
 
The funny thing is, I own both a Frame Square and a Ledsome. When I used the Frame Square as my only means of cutting moulding, I had to purchase a miter sander.

Now that I use the Ledsome, which is hydraulic by the way, I no longer need the miter sander.

I cut a lot of Ash mouldings and in my world, the Freud LU85 blades are good for about 10 - 12 frames and then I get to pay Charlotte Saw and Knife 20 bucks a piece to sharpen them. I found no cost savings there.

I agree with John. Buy the very best blades you can possibly afford.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top