what do i say....

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stud d

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i did not mean to egg bbf on, but i was not happy with what he had to say. i hope he does not get into trouble over this. ahhh....this is strange, in some way i think i had something to do with this ,but not entirely.
i am at a loss here. i don't know what to say about all of this. i don't know if it is all real or a joke...someone please inform me as to what happened. is he really getting into trouble? i read the responses to my post then i see the michaels thing...where did this come from???why did it happen? i know i am rambling, but i don't know what to say about this.
denis
 
I learned one thing on the Grumble: If you don't know what to say it's best to keep your mouth shut. Works for me!
 
Send an e-mail to Michaels legal affairs lawyer, tell him to go scr-w himself then forget it. OR, just forget it, it's out of your hands anyway. Also, bear in mind, this is The Grumble, your allowed to grumble about whatever you want. If BBF loses his job, it will probably be a good thing for him anyway. Maybe he will start his own shop.

John
 
Dns:
Anything that happens to BBF is of his own doing. Sure you, I and others probably egged him on a bit. But someone with such an ego, touting himself as the "God" of framing, who doesn't know as much as he thinks, needed to be shown that 1) he's NOT as great as he thinks, and 2) if you come into a forum like this it's to exchange ideas, learn something and vent a bit when the occasion merits, not toot your own horn. I just wanted him to understand that regardless of how great you are, there's always someone better. Behave yourself and learn from the master(s), grasshopper.

Again: anything he did he did himself. Hopefully he's adult enough to handle whatever consequences come his way.
 
Originally posted by JRB:
Send an e-mail to Michaels legal affairs lawyer, tell him to go scr-w himself then forget it.
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Aye!

---
Mike

[ 07-14-2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: TADPORTER ]
 
So why exactly are we mad at the shark?

Oh, yeh, free speech.

Think about a poll. One question and a yes or no answer.

Does free speech, with respect to The Grumble, mean that anyone can say anything they want, any time, to anyone else? Yes or no?

Dennis, if you've had any kind of life so far, you probably have plenty to answer for. I know I do. But I don't think this is one of 'em.

Please don't lose any sleep over this.
 
Are you really sure this is not the Twilight
Zone? :D

Was it a Grumbler conspiracy?

Will we ever know? :confused:

[ 07-14-2003, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]
 
BBF annoyed me with his arrogance, but I have to admit (shamefully) that he was good entertainment. I know I knew it all at that age, but I don't think I was quite so "in your face" about it. :D

If he really likes working in this field I hope he can get over himself and learn more, as we all can, no matter how many years we've been framing.
 
Originally posted by dns y:
in some way i think i had something to do with this ,but not entirely.
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Only if you were the one that contacted big M's legal dept. That would be harsh payback for the mud that was slung your way. But very brilliant. I felt like bbf was singling you out for some reason.

Anyway, don't worry about it.

Jerry
 
Kris Kristofferson wrote some lyrics that said, "We take our own chances. We pay our own dues."

If this BBF guy signed on with Michaels, he signed the legal treatise, all 14 pages, that clearly delineate that M's employees are NOT to take part in industry-related bbs and/or forums..among other violations.

As an independant framer, I have no problem with Michaels stores. They're bigger than me, and if they decide to locate next door, I can't stop them. So...if the 'shark' is a HR lawyer, he's doing his job. BBF 'took his own chances', and, it appears, will be 'paying his own dues'.

I do find it interesting that everyone tends to bad-mouth the Big Boxes, and when the worst possible example of a BB employee comes along, with an attitude, some feel sorry for him.

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, I had a Top Secret Security Clearance with the Fone Co. There was stuff I wasn't supposed to talk about. Free speech be damned, in order to keep my job, and, quite possibly, to help nat'l security, I kept my mouth shut like the documents I signed said I would.

If you sign your name to a document, it means you abide by the rules contained therein. BBF might get fired. I coulda gotten sent to jail. You take your own chances, and pay your own dues...
 
this does seem to be of the twilight zone variety. i won't loose sleep over it at all. i find it to be quite strange, just out of left field.

now why can't m's employees talk or fraternize with other framers? is it so they don't speak about company policy? or what? i think a website like this would be good for the employee, if they use this to their advantage. somone fill me in on this.

ohh and by the way i am not that smart, i would not call a company on an employee. i don't even know if he works for them or where he even lives. i think it all could have been an odd joke of sorts. that might be me hoping, but whatevah'...
denniiss
 
I do find it interesting that everyone tends to bad-mouth the Big Boxes, and when the worst possible example of a BB employee comes along, with an attitude, some feel sorry for him.
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Someone once said, "To err is human, to forgive is Divine."
 
I wouldn`t sweat it too much Den.

I was getting flamed all over the place for having a different point of view on the Iraq fiasco.I didn`t let myself fall out with anyone over it and if anyone thinks differently of me because of it then too bad so sad.

Just let it lie and let the lawyer do whatever it is they do to justify their jobs.Hopefully he will sit on a drawing pin.

This is a message board after all and you are allowed to reply to posts.If the guy you replyed to was on the wind up then you won,t see him again.Thats the nature of the beast usually.

[ 07-15-2003, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: Reynard ]
 
Well... he was thinking about jumping ship, but I guess now he's overboard - hopefully with a life preserver :D
 
I personally think any framer should be allowed to talk to other framers and join a framer's forum. The framer could receive much good information. If the company finds out that person is bad mouthing them or is offending, then they should discuss it with the employee. But I also agree that if the contract is signed, then the employee is legally bound to follow the contract. If Framer wants, he can always ban the guy. I found his stuff and our responses entertaining.
 
Originally posted by Reynard:
. . . on the Iraq fiasco.
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Fiasco...? Fiasco...?


1932273123.gif
 
The whole episode sure has become rather "Springeresque" in nature..............it surprises me that people couldn't see he was just looking to antagonize. But I guess Springer wouldn't have any guests for his show if people weren't so easily riled up.

It definitely lowers the tone of the whole forum. I don't find it in the least entertaining. I don't find Jerry Springer entertaining either. We are a bunch of framers not a bunch of WWF wrestlers........
 
A new sign of the Armageddon: I am in total agreement with emibub.

Get your affairs in order. The end is near.
 
now why can't m's employees talk or fraternize with other framers? is it so they don't speak about company policy? or what? i think a website like this would be good for the employee, if they use this to their advantage. someone fill me in on this.
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This is why BBFramer didn't know what FACTS was!!!

Sad state of affairs. :(
 
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:

Does free speech, with respect to The Grumble, mean that anyone can say anything they want, any time, to anyone else? Yes or no?

Ron, this is a public forum, my answer to your question is an emphatic YES. By answering NO, I would be handing you the licence to sensor anything YOU deemed inappropriat.

As a public forum, much like the original Roman forums, THE MEMBERS THEMSELVES will let their outrage or affirmation to any statement be known to the author.

Having a sensor block any statement would pretty much render the forum itself as worthless.

What is there to debate if there is no controversy?

This is exactly what the legal affairs attorney from Michaels is trying to establish on The Grumble, the right to sensor a public forum. The concept is wrong, it violates our right to free speech, and it should not be allowed to happen.

By allowing him to delete ANY post on this forum, we would be establishing a precedence to anyone else who disagrees with any future post.

this forum should be controled by the voice of the members, no one else, especially a little self serving lawyer from Michaels.

I've said this many times in the past, the reason The Grumble is so darn popular is that the whole thing is a free and open board. We as members can express ourselves any way we want. We can complain about products and companies, people in our industry, each other. We can also compliment the same things.

The Grumble is probably one of the most powerfull tools to ever hit our industry. For the first time in our history a supplier can no longer say to one of us " Your the only one who seems to be having a problem with our product." If we give Michaels the right to edit, we are giving any company ther right to edit.

John

[ 07-15-2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: JRB ]
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As a grunbler in training, I can't help but respond to this post...it's what made me finally register after months of being a guest. The Grumble has been an excellent source for me in researching this business.

I have been a graphic artist selling my soul to the corporate world for over 25 years. I worked for a custom framer over 2 decades ago and am returning to framing because I have tired of spending relentless days and nights satisfying a client that will appreciate my work for a mere 2 seconds of time.

There are greater rewards in framing a work of art for a customer to appreciate for years to come.

My response to BBF? The school of "hard knocks". is better than any degree you can earn in college. One cannot measure success by the balance in their checkbook.
 
One cannot measure success by the balance in their checkbook.
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That makes me feel better about my success in this business given my vast (11 months) experience.

BTW what is the best way to frame a dead cat?? Not that I have one to do, but given the amount of road kill during the summer, ya never know.
 
I've been watching this with amazement today.
I hope someone didn't just say that a Michael's lawyer edited a post? Can someone enlighten me or e-mail me about that post?
 
JRB hit the nail on the head. I can't believe we would actually allow someone to decide what can or cannot be on OUR BB.
 
JRB, I must respectfully disagree.

This is a public forum in the sense that's it's pretty-much open to anyone who chooses to participate. But it is owned by framer and moderated by those he chooses. Everyone knows it's a moderated forum when they sign on, and the moderating is generally pretty loose.

I think we all feel free to speak our minds here, and I think it's possible to do it with courtesy and mutual respect. We don't have to like everyone. We don't have to agree with everyone. We don't even have to agree with those we like.

But we can disagree without being ugly, demeaning or sarcastic.

I can't help but think that we're not really that far apart on this issue. I don't believe you really want a forum where people can sling profanities back-and-forth or make up lies about one-another. You probably don't want a forum where newcomers are made to feel stupid for asking a naive question.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure you'll let me know.
 
Ron, we the members of The Grumble, have always bent over backwards to make a newcomer feel welcome, even if we thought his statement or question was stupid. We did not call for it to be deleted or censored because we did not agree with it.

We, the members, have always let anyone who was rude or inconsiderate know if they are stepping over the line.

If a fray has started, we, the members, have indulged or backed away from it, at our choosing.

If a fray gets completly out of controle, the thread should be locked, not deleted. THAT is what we need moderators for. We do not need a censor. I don't think any of us want that.

I agree, The Grumble is owned by Framer, and he sets the tone of it. Bill ( Framer ) has always let most things run their course. I can't ever remember HIM deleting anything. I do remember HIM putting a lock on a thread.

I know we are not that far away from agreament on this.

I just feel that all of these posts and threads become a part of our industries history. Good or bad, they reflect the mood of the times.

Years ago I found on old framing magazine in my grandmothers garage. It was from the 1920s or 30s, I can't remember. It gave a whole lot of insight into what was going on at the time. I especially remember an artical about a questionair that was conducted in the 1800s and currently ( the time the magazine was published )
One of the questions was, what is the most hated job in a framing shop? The general consensus in both situations was, cutting mats. Making compo came in second.

This forum is like that old magazine, it's interesting and fun. Lets not change it with censorship. I wish I had kept it, but now it's gone, for good.

John

[ 07-15-2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: JRB ]
 
As a former programmer that is now a framer, I have been a member of several technical and other forums. The order of the day on most is that flaming seems to be mandatory on most, the more derogatory the better. Some technical types seem to engourge themselves on their superiority and arrogance. For some, the thin veneer of civility is stripped as soon as they have an anonomous online identity. Want a taste of one of these forums? Visit one like slashdot.org sometime.

Such a relief to join a forum that is civilized and where most members treat each other (for the most part) with respect. Newbies quake with fear on most forums, afraid to ask questions for fear of their life (life online, that is). I'm actually looking forward to meeting some of you at some future, unspecified, framing event. I couldn't conceive of that elsewhere.

[ 07-15-2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Larry Peterson ]
 
John, I think we're getting closer on this. Really, I do.

I recently threatened to delete a thread because I was getting angry over the increasingly hostile tone. That was hasty, immature and ill-advised. But do you ever remember me actually deleting a thread?

I did delete a duplicate thread yesterday that had no responses. After I did that, I got an email from the embarrassed poster asking me to delete it.

What I'm really advocating is civility and self-moderation.
 
Ron....You Dummy!!!!!!

How's that for civility!!!!

I'm only kidding happy faces and all that actually wanted to say Hear Hear, or Here Here or there there or where where.
 
I have seen lots of posts that are degrading and sarcstic, but it is overlooked most of the time, because we know each other and everyone has a bad day now and then. It should be "taken with a grain of salt" unless it continues, then someone should help moderate it. We also do not always show respect to each other.

[ 07-15-2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Sue Nolan ]
 
But we can disagree without being ugly, demeaning or sarcastic.

I, for one, must agree.

There are more tactful ways to continue this industry with pride, more over, it is the diversity of expertise that keeps civilization moving.

To not share experience and knowledge, allows the bigger box to put the smaller box into non-existance.

It's the smaller box that wants to please the customer. This framer forms a relationship with the customer. Is it likely that a customer will return to this small box because it felt welcome?Or better yet will the same consultant be at the counter?


BTW I apologize for my typos in my first reply (and any after) to this forum.

motivated to succeed,
jangal
 
Originally posted by jangal:
BTW I apologize for my typos in my first reply (and any after) to this forum.
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Jan, WATCH IT! The Spelling Committee, headed up by Buddy, will be on you like white on rice!! One thing we don't tolerate heer iz spelin erirs an hypos!

BTW: Welcome to the Grumble!
 
Quoted by Charles:
Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, I had a Top Secret Security Clearance with the Fone Co.
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Charles--did you ever see the late 60's vintage film "The President's Analyst"? It starred James Coburn as a psychotherapist who gets hired to treat the President. Naturally, every foriegn spy organization, plus the CIA and the FBI,wants to get ahold of Coburn to see what's up with the Prez, and they keep knocking each other off in their pursuit. Eventually, Coburn is captured by the most omnipotent secret agency of all, TPC....The Phone Company. If you haven't seen this, try to find it. It is goofy and somewhat dated, but that is what makes it charming, and it's great satire. Look fora great cameo role by William Daniels as a paranoid suburbanite.


Quoted by Emibub:
I don't find Jerry Springer entertaining either.
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Kathy, I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but Jerry Springer just filed papers to run for Senator from Ohio, against the incumbent George Voinovich. This is not as strange as it seems. Before he became a sleazy talk show host, he was a well-educated and articulate young politician who served creatively on Cincinnati City Council. He suffered a personal setback in the form of a sex scandal (he stupidly went to a prostitute, and paid her by check, which became public). He resigned from council afterwards, but the following year he ran again and got more votes than any other candidate, becoming Cincinnati's youngest Mayor. He later went on to be anchor for the top-rated local evening newscast, during which time he delivered regularly-featured well-articulated liberal-oriented commentaries. The company that owned the local station tapped him to become "the new Phil Donahue". His show was actually reasonably decent and straightforward when it began, but after he began broadcasting it from Chicago, it morphed into what it has become today.
Has Springer sold his soul to the devil for the big money, and thereby given up his credibility as a legitimate public figure or leader? Perhaps. But, I wouldn't write him off completely. Underneath all the glitz and sleaze and being-his-own-worst-enemy behavior, lurks a smart guy. Maybe before he starts his campaign he ought to watch the film "Primary Colors". He's a very Clintonesque figure.

Sorry to Frankenthread this discussion. This probably belongs on Warped, but I just wanted to reference the two quotes on this thread.

Regarding the topic at hand, I would agree with Ron's and JRB's posts about civility and respect for our fellow Grumblers. And, I would remind all, as Bob Carter did on the other related thread, that in this affair it would appear that the posts in question were removed at the request of the poster (BigBoxFramer), and not as the result of any censorship or intimidation by M's attorney.

:cool: Rick
 
Originally posted by Emibub:
It definitely lowers the tone of the whole forum. I don't find it in the least entertaining. I don't find Jerry Springer entertaining either. We are a bunch of framers not a bunch of WWF wrestlers........
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Royall, you definitely nailed that one! I totally agree.

All framers are not necessarily created equally, but sometimes, I think we ought to have a 'Junior Grumble'. There're too many who profess to know it all, and nobody does. Otherwise, there'd be no need for the BBS.

We all feed off each other's expertise, in varying degrees, and THAT, not BBF, and Framenfreak stuff, is why I'm here, at least.*

The good part is, if we all hang around long enough, and don't act like boobs, there's a good chance we'll all learn something here.


*Well, there IS Warped..

[ 07-16-2003, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: CharlesL ]
 
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